Advice and /or opinions appreciated

[Robtel]

This has totally nothing to do with caravanning but I am aware that members of this forum have varying backgrounds and therefore will probably be able to give sound advice.

I have oil central heating at home as does my next door neighbour. Last week my neighbour arranged for a delivery of oil from his normal supplier but the driver, new to the route, delivered the oil to my tank in error. I only became aware of this when the driver attempted to stick the delivery note through the letter box. I told him of the mistake and he said he would get his boss to phone me and work out a solution to this, probably a discount on the oil delivered.

I use a different supplier for my oil and pay by monthly standing order so as to avoid having to pay large bills of several hundred pounds when oil is delivered. So even if this supplier gives a good discount for oil delivered in error I am still going to have to pay out a fairly hefty lump sum that I have not planned for.

Anyway, phone call from driver's boss never happened and to be honest I didn't chase them up. Yesterday an invoice from the oil supplier was delivered by post requesting payment in full without even an apology for the error. I phoned their office,spoke with a lady who knew nothing about it but promised she would get the boss to phone later. No phone call yesterday or today.

In short, I have a delivery of 1000 litres of oil which I did not order, from a company I do not deal with. The delivery was not authorised nor was the delivery signed for. I don't mind making a payment to the company but do not see why I should suffer financial hardship and inconvenience because of their mistake. I am also not too keen on the thought of this company coming and pumping oil from my tank back into their vehicle as an alternative to paying.

This is not the first time this company have done this. A few years back they again delivered fuel to me instead of my neighbour. At that time my neighbour used a different type of fuel from me, I think it was "red diesel", and I insisted that my tank was pumped clean and amount of oil prior to erroneous delivery replaced. They made quite a mess doing this, there was fuel all over the driveway which was trailed into the house on footwear. Also I was never convinced the correct amount of fuel was replaced.

Do you think I am legally or morally obliged to make full or part payment to this company? if part payment what do you feel would be appropriate discount ( total bill is £280 )

Look forward to your comments. Thanks

Robert

 

[CliveV]

Hi Rob

What an interesting one!

The legal bods I deal with said to try this:-

Write to the company stating that the oil was delivered in error and that you were seeking legal advice on how best to proceed.

That should keep the supplier of the oil you did not want not "happy" but quiet for a while at least.

Meanwhile get onto your normal supplier and ask him to check that the oil now in your tank is of serviceable quality.

If it is, then you can say that as the mistake was theirs and you have a contract with your supplier that you cannot get out off, - the firm that delivered the oil to you in error should claim the money owed from your supplier.

Basically, the idea is to get the two suppliers to argue it out amongst themselves rather than you trying to act as piggy in the middle.

Keep all correspondence and I would invest in one of those little microphones that clips to your phone to record any phone calls. The recordings cannot be used but written transcripts if things get heated can be very useful.

I would also run it by your local CAB.

These guys are excellent and worth a visit.

Hope this helps

 

[sparkes]

Tell them to take it back but under no circumstances are they to remove any of your original oil. Ask them to have their equipment calibrated before they attempt removal and provide the calibration certificate for confirmation. Tell them that it is their mistake so you expect them to pay for your time. Also tell them you wish to charge them

 

[cris_408518]

What oil ?

We had a problem with a company delivering goods and leaving them in an empty yard with no receipt signature. Time and time again the company was told that no one was at the premises 3 days a week.

Even though the goods were for us we had not formally accepted them we were told that it was down to the company who delivered them to uplift the goods and that we were not responsible for part of the order that neighbous had seen someone else walk off.

We were advised to give notice to the company to remove the goods or we would dispose of them in three working days. On the second occasion we found about half of what we had ordered in the open two day ater it had been delivered and called the company and asked them to uplift the goods and deliver a complete order. A week later we got a call asking where the goods were.

It's the oil companies mistake ask them to uplift the order in three days and pay storage costs to you.

 

[NorfolkMike]

Hope your tank was nearly empty!

ttfn

 

[Guest]

I know it is probably daft but can not you and your neighbour come to an amicable agreement. Maybe get a pump and pump the oil he ordered from your tank to his,.

I assume your tank was pretty empty, or the delivery could not have physically been made, so at some stage soon you will need to get a delivery yourself. Ok, so you got it a little bit early. Maybe you could get a quote for the quantity from your normal supplier and send that to the recalitrant Company with a suggestion they pay the difference and a little on top for inconvenience. If however, your own Company would be more expensive, then I would pay up and keep quiet.

All domestic heating oil, i think is usually diesel and it may be coloured red to stop you using it in your car as it is supplied at a lower rate of duty.

As this has happened before then I would suggest your first task is to fit a padlock to your tank so deliveries cannot be made without your permission.

 

[Robtel]

I know it is probably daft but can not you and your neighbour come to an amicable agreement. Maybe get a pump and pump the oil he ordered from your tank to his,.

I assume your tank was pretty empty, or the delivery could not have physically been made, so at some stage soon you will need to get a delivery yourself. Ok, so you got it a little bit early. Maybe you could get a quote for the quantity from your normal supplier and send that to the recalitrant Company with a suggestion they pay the difference and a little on top for inconvenience. If however, your own Company would be more expensive, then I would pay up and keep quiet.

All domestic heating oil, i think is usually diesel and it may be coloured red to stop you using it in your car as it is supplied at a lower rate of duty.

As this has happened before then I would suggest your first task is to fit a padlock to your tank so deliveries cannot be made without your permission.

Scotch Lad,

Domestic heating oil is in fact kerosene, the last lot that was delivered in error a few years back was when my neighbour used different type of fuel than he is now.

My tank holds two and a half thousand litres so it did not need to be particularly empty for this delivery to be made. I take your point about the padlock, I had already decided on that.

Re pumping 1000 litres to my neighbour's tank a hundred yards away, I don't think that would be very practical. I would need to hire equipment and I don't know how I could accurately measure amount being moved. Anyway after the driver was alerted to his error he then delivered 1000ltr. to my neighbour herefore he will not be wanting a further supply.

Although annoyed by the driver's error I was initially quite prepared to pay. The attitude of the company since then, no phone calls when promised, invoice for full amount without even note of apology has increased that annoyance and I now feel that why should I be inconvenienced by their incompetence more than necessary.

 

[Robtel]

I know it is probably daft but can not you and your neighbour come to an amicable agreement. Maybe get a pump and pump the oil he ordered from your tank to his,.

I assume your tank was pretty empty, or the delivery could not have physically been made, so at some stage soon you will need to get a delivery yourself. Ok, so you got it a little bit early. Maybe you could get a quote for the quantity from your normal supplier and send that to the recalitrant Company with a suggestion they pay the difference and a little on top for inconvenience. If however, your own Company would be more expensive, then I would pay up and keep quiet.

All domestic heating oil, i think is usually diesel and it may be coloured red to stop you using it in your car as it is supplied at a lower rate of duty.

As this has happened before then I would suggest your first task is to fit a padlock to your tank so deliveries cannot be made without your permission.

SL,

In some respects you are correct that I would have need to get a delivery from my normal supplier sooner rather than later but as explained in my original post I have agreement with them where I pay fixed amount by monthly standing order. I can order a fulltank load of 2,500 litre and my monthly payment will not change. I entered this agreement so that I would not be hit by bills for several hundred pounds at any one time, such as the one being proposed at present.

 

[Guest]

When I last used oil as a central heating fuel in the 90's it was indeed kerosene. What threw me was your comment regarding the red dye, because all my fuel was colourless. I wondered if in the meantime things had changed, especially as I know a lot of industrial systems run on diesel, and that is normally the one with the dye.

I fully appreciate your comments regarding paying a fixed amount each month, I assume at the end of the year the total deliveries are tallied up as the cost of heating oil varies on a daily basis comparable with the global oil price. There could be very significant differences in price and I used to watch for the low spots and fill up then.

The suggestion of pumping was made because you had a situation, not of your own making, but probably needed to sort it out yourself to get a satisfactory outcome. As kerosene is light in density a pump would move it fairly quickly even over that distance. Tanks all have dip sticks, or gauges so a reasonable estimate could have been made, just depends how friendly you are with your neighbour. However, now he has received a delivery that option is no longer possible.

I am not a lawyer, maybe others can comment more accurately, but my understanding is that if a delivery is made in error, then it is the responsibility of the supplier to arrange collection with you. I would suggest writing (recorded delivery) to the Company stating that you are awaiting their instructions regarding uplift of their property from your premises. To physically do this will involve a pump as the delivery trucks can only pump out, not in. In the meantime obviously ignore any invoices, or return a copy with another copy of your letter regarding them collecting their property. Also explain the position to your solicitor and follow any advice he gives you. It may drag on long enough that you have built up sufficient credit with your exisitng supplier to get a refund. Of course the common sense thing for the Company to do would be to take the monthly payment off you until the amount is cleared, but they are not probably that logical.

As an aside to try and cheer you up, you could always wait on the Company sending in the Bailiffs to collect, they could bring a lot of buckets??

I think that provided you keep all paperwork and a record of all calls there is not a lot can happen to you. Even better if your solicitor writes on your behalf, that usually gets attention. You might even end up with the fuel as a freebie because that may be cheaper than recovery.

 

[Guest]

Just a few other comments that came to mind.

For the Oil Company to recover the fuel will require the following:

TRuck of course

A positive displacement pump and hoses

Probably a surveyor

Your tank has no suction point except the one to the heating system so the recovery has to be done through the top hatch. This means the suction will be higher than the pump and a PD pump is necessary to move anything. You could use a centrifugal pump if someone?? is prepared to fil the suction line with fuel.

As the only legal way of transfgerring correct volumes is to use a surveyor then technically one needs to be on site. The Company may argue its tanjks are calibrated but you will insist on seeing the Calibration Certificate before any transfer takes place. They are probably back at the office so another wasted trip.

Technically any recovered oil should go back to the refinery as it may have been contaminated in your tank. I know you say it is clean but all sorts of colloidal solids could be stirred up?? or even some water get inot the fuel. Technically it cannot be then resold, but that is not really your problem.

You will also of course be adviseing the Oil Company hat you will be expecting?? a delivery of oil from your own supplier soon?? and therefore they need to remove their product asap.

What I am trying to say is that recovery could be far more expensive than the value of the oil, so the Company will probably (with pressure from your solicitor) settle on a discounted price. Start at 70% and settle no less than 40%. Any fees for your solicitor should be then deducted from what you pay for the oil.

Therefore I suspect you may end up with a very cheap batch of oil.

I also assume your neighbour lives a good distance away (I believe you said 100 yards) so confusing the addresses was really not a realistic option?? I originally thought you lived next door and was curious as to why your neighbour may have watched a delivery from his Company, on the day he was expecting one, going up your driveway, and done nothing. Just a thought?

 

[Robtel]

Thanks for all your comments and advice. I am going to contact Citizen's Advice tomorrow and hear their opinions on this.

Scotch Lad - My neighbour does live next door but the two oil tanks are at opposite corners of each garden hence the distance. Regarding how easy or not to confuse the addresses, I have a wooden decorative sign with the house name and number clearly displayed attached to the wall within a couple of yards of where the driver would have needed to pass to complete the oil delivery. My neighbour was unaware of the presence of the oil tanker as it was parked up from both houses. We live adjacent to a main A road so traffic noise is the norm and you tend to get used to it. At the time of delivery both my neighbour and I were at home so if the driver had any doubts a quick knock at either door would have solved any problem.

Thanks again to all who have taken the time to respond. I will post details of the outcome.

Robert

 

[Robtel]

An update for those who replied or anyone else interested, it may be of benefit to someone at a future date.

As suggested by CliveV I contacted Citizen's Advice Bureau this morning regarding this. They had dealt with a similar enquiry recently and were able almost immediately to tell me that under the Consumer Protection Act, Distance Selling Regulations, 2000 Act, the oil delivery was classed as unsolicited goods and as such could be treated as a gift. Under these regulations the recipent is under no obligation to pay for the goods or to return them.

If I wanted to make an offer of payment for the goods that is entirely optional, no obligation to do so.

If the supplier had behaved as I feel they should have i.e. made contact with an apology and offer of a compromise then they would have had a cheque posted to them last week. As it is now ten days since delivery and no contact apart from invoice for full amount I don't feel particularly disposed to making them any offer but I'll see how that goes.

Thanks again to all who responded, hope the above info from C.A.B. is of interest.

Robert

 

[cris_408518]

As I expected Rob. The law has not really changed. If they have no formal acceptance of the goods it is their problem and they were trying it on with you hoping to scare you in to paying I guess.

Looks like it will be a warm winter in the Rob-T home and bank account ;-)

 

[colincheshire]

Sorry to hear of your trials and tribulations.

We had a similar scenario a few years ago with our 1800 litre tank. Arrived home to find a delivery note for 1000 litres on the doormat from a certain local kerosene supplier. It should have gone to another house with a similar address.

The wife rang them and said that we hadn't ordered any fuel. To be fair they were most apologetic and said that as we hadn't ordered it and they couldn't realistically pump it out again we could keep it for a discounted price. A bit of haggling later and we had the tank topped up for a lot cheaper than normal.

For anyone else don't forget that the price per litre is generally less if you buy over a thousand litres rather than under.

 

[cris_408518]

Seems like there is a market opening for Oil tanks with a spare 1000 litre capacity and another for revolving house name and door number plates ;-)

 

[sparkes]

Just for info

http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/goods-service/scams/fs_u01.shtml