Al-ko jacking stiffener plates. Catastrophy!!

[Dustydog]

In the immortal words of Mr Meldrew, I don't believe it.

When we arrived I jacked up the Wyoming using a trolley jack to fit the Al-ko wheel locks. Without any warning the stiffener plate failed , literally bending over on itself allowing the Wyoming to crash back to the ground. I'll post some pics when I return next week.

Should this have happened?
Prof John. The Wyoming came from the factory with these stiffener plates and also a side jack that never worked. She'll be 5 years old in november. Who do you think is liable for the replacement cost? Bailey, my dealer or Al-ko?
Just imagine if I had been under the caravan at the time!!

 

[Surfer]

In the immortal words of Mr Meldrew, I don't believe it.

When we arrived I jacked up the Wyoming using a trolley jack to fit the Al-ko wheel locks. Without any warning the stiffener plate failed , literally bending over on itself allowing the Wyoming to crash back to the ground. I'll post some pics when I return next week.

Should this have happened?
Prof John. The Wyoming came from the factory with these stiffener plates and also a side jack that never worked. She'll be 5 years old in november. Who do you think is liable for the replacement cost? Bailey, my dealer or Al-ko?
Just imagine if I had been under the caravan at the time!!

First point of contact is the dealer, but doubt if they will be able to help as you used a trolley jack. Under Sale of Goods Act you will have lost out because of using a trolley jack and not the recommended jack. Skating on thin ice comes to mind.
Has there been any damage to the caravan?

 

[Dustydog]

In the immortal words of Mr Meldrew, I don't believe it.

When we arrived I jacked up the Wyoming using a trolley jack to fit the Al-ko wheel locks. Without any warning the stiffener plate failed , literally bending over on itself allowing the Wyoming to crash back to the ground. I'll post some pics when I return next week.

Should this have happened?
Prof John. The Wyoming came from the factory with these stiffener plates and also a side jack that never worked. She'll be 5 years old in november. Who do you think is liable for the replacement cost? Bailey, my dealer or Al-ko?
Just imagine if I had been under the caravan at the time!!

First point of contact is the dealer, but doubt if they will be able to help as you used a trolley jack. Under Sale of Goods Act you will have lost out because of using a trolley jack and not the recommended jack. Skating on thin ice comes to mind.
Has there been any damage to the caravan?

Hi Sir Stagger
Fortunately no damage to me or the caravan.

The original jack didn't work and this was well documented on this forum , by me, and by way of letters to Al-ko which were never answered!

If Al-ko were to say using a trolley jack was wrong then there is no hope for any of us!!

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Well Dusty you have perhaps found out what I have said for years and that is that a trolley jack is not the best (or safest) tool for the job. (and yes I have got one and used it for the van,)

The problem with trolley jacks is that they are not ‘straight’ lifts, but lift on an arc (radius) and the centre line of the lift changes from start of lift to final lift position, and consequently the jack needs to move on its trolleys to keep the lift vertical, and if this can’t happen then there has to be some movement at the lifting point, and the jack moves on the lifting bracket or canotact point so the bracket is not then loaded centrally and can cause a problem,or the lifted object has to move which if it is the van itself its dodgy.If you don’t believe this “logic” then place your jack on the ground or bench and place a rod or cane at the centre line of the lifting point at the side of the jack and then elevate the jack you will then see how much the jack moves away from the original lifting line.I believe it is this movement off centre that causes the problem with these jacks and they are not the best tools for the job. I realised this when I started using a Bulldog max wheel lock and using the jack regularly for fitting it. I have used the Kojak hydraulic scissor jack for a long while now, a much safer lift and just as easy as the trolley, and far easier to transport. “If Al-ko were to say using a trolley jack was wrong then there is no hope for any of us!!”So if Alko did say that they may have a point !! They certainly have in my case.

 

[Sproket]

DD was it this type of bracket that failed
http://shop.al-ko.co.uk/products/replacement-jack-bracket-kit-1000-kg.html
Or was it the bottom of the chassis rail that has bent ?

 

[RayS]

I have seen the results of a similar failure. In this case the brackets were dealer fitted. The fitter failed to put the large washers uner the bolt heads and under the nuts, with the result the bolt heads actually pulled through the holes in the chassis.

Suggest you check whether the bolts are still in place and it is the bracket which has failed, or whether the bolts were not installed with washers. If the latter I suggest you have better grounds for complaint as it would be unreasonable to expect the average user to inspect and check for the correct installation of bolts, and the problem would not show up until first use.

I also don't see that the type of jack used has much to do with the matter assuming that the loading point is the same - i.e produces the same leverage on the bracket. With the original side lift jack I had on a previous 'van the load point was about 2 inches outside the edge of the chassis member. Thus lifting produced a considerable bending moment relative to lifting immediately below the chassis member.

 

[Damian]

There are only two places which are safe to use a trolley jack .
First is directly under the axle behind the brake backplate and the second is under the axle reinforcing web where the axle bolts to the chassis rails.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,

I'm very pleased you weren't hurt. A forum without Dusty, would be quite lonely.

Jocularity aside, If you had a basis for a claim it would be against the seller with whom you contracted to buy the caravan. To pursue the manufacture is a far more complex matter, normally only undertaken as a class action - and it costs a lot.

I'm sorry but I think Surfer has offered a good insight into your position.

At 5 years old the caravan may have started to suffer from corrosion that weakens certain parts, which may or may not be picked up at services. Whether this is a case of none merchantable quality I'm not sure.

It is of course possible the trolley jack applied additional loads to the plate in direction it was not designed for, which resulted in the component buckling. The use of a none OEM approved jack is the perfect excuse a dealer or manufacture will use to muddy any possible claim, and with some justification, if a product is used outside of its designed specification, then who ever decided to do so is responsible.

However if the original jack was faulty or not fit for purpose, then as with all retail sales your remedy is against the contracted seller, not the manufacturer. It is also important to address such matters as soon as they become apparent.

As Alko had no contract with you they are not obliged to respond, though I do think it is regrettable a reputable company failed to give any response.

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks chaps for all the advice. Gabs I see your point. Do you think the caravan as it's being lifted would also describe an arc, so that whatever jack is used it cannot always follow a straight line, more a tangent?

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks chaps for all the advice. Gabs I see your point. Do you think the caravan as it's being lifted would also describe an arc, so that whatever jack is used it cannot always follow a straight line, more a tangent?

Sorry not the full answer . Will post next week

 

[philspot1]

Gabs is right, a trolley jack (where the lifting arm pivots from the end of the jack opposite to the lift point) will attempt to lift the van along that arc. On a smooth surface, the average trolley jack will creep forward and so keep the lift more or less vertical.If it can't move, you're in trouble.
A bottle jack or scissor jack has its lifting point directly over its base, and lifts vertically.
When the caravan lifts, it rises in a very slight arc centred on the towhitch and opposite side wheel - I can't see that affecting the jack attachment much, but it's always wise to watch out.
I had a nasty experience using my VW jack on my T4. The jack is one of those "one legged" things. The car park (where the tyre had deflated) sloped a little, and as I lifted, the point where the jack connected with the van moved gradually away from vertical, then the base started to slip slowly sideways!! Panic and brute force, coupled with rapid lowering, saved the day, just!!

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Thanks chaps for all the advice. Gabs I see your point. Do you think the caravan as it's being lifted would also describe an arc, so that whatever jack is used it cannot always follow a straight line, more a tangent?

hi all,
yes DD that would be correct, but the arc would be away from the jack given that the pivot point was the opposite wheel, Gabs explaination as I see it is spot on

assuming the trolly was straight on in line with the wheels.
trolly jacks have wheels for a reason and are there to counteract the effect, if the wheels cannot move as the jack is lifted the jackpad will slip backwards.
a costly lesson I learned many years ago when the jack slipped of the chasis rail of cortina I was lifting and the pad went through the car floor, I allways place the trollyjack on a 1/2" plywood sheet before lifting since then.

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Agree with Colin 100%, the van "moves" in the opposite direction to the jack lift because of it pivoting on the opposite wheel. I have had similar problem over the years, and learnt from it. But many advocates of the trolley jack think you are 'talking' nonsense, - because garages use them.PS.

 

[Sproket]

Have a look just how much the pivot point ( arc ) on my trolley jack moves, I have set up two rules, one vertical to show lift & one horizontal, up to five inches & it hardly moves then as the lift gets higher the pivot point moves back in total seven inches over a fifteen inch lift, one of the reasons that I bought a Kojack scissor jack when they first came out is that this lifts vertically, I use this for when I jack my van up to put it on the axle stands, & it sits behind my seat when towing, the trolly jack moves two inches from vertical at the max height of the Kojack...

Trolley Jack movement video
Kojack movement video

 

[Dustydog]

Many thanks to all of you for all the very useful words of wisdom. Prof John, I think you are right. In law it will be argued I was supplied with Al-ko jacking points and an Al ko scissor jack, not a side lift as I originally thought. Thus my use of a trolley jack may be against the makers recommendations or at least by suggesting and supplying something else it may implied I was using the wrong kit. On Damians point I have tried to use the trolley jack as suggested but found it nigh impossible to locate because of the motor mover and spare wheel cradle. GABs Have no fear IQ always use axle stands if underneath. I fully appreciate all the comments about arcs of movement etc with the trolley jack but confess it has never crossed my mind before. The Al ko jack is in my loft because it is just too difficult , virtually impossible to use. I also looked at Sproket's earlier link No they are not what I have . My brackets are very simple angle iron pieces without big washers and in fact according to the Al ko web site rated at 800kgs. The MTPLM of the Wyoming is 1670kgs. I'm now wondering if the brackets were under engineered from the outset?? Moving forward I need to replace the brackets with something more substantial and obviously use a different jacking system. Purple line seem to have a good hydraulic operated jack with their own mounting brackets. Perhaps this is the way to go? btw the chassis didn't bend. All this just to fix the Al ko wheel locks to keep the Insurers happy!! Thanks again mes Amis.

 

[Dustydog]

The new heavy duty twin axle brackets and purple line kojack hydraulic bottle jack will arrive today , hopefully before lunch. Then I'll fit this afternoon.
Amazing how fast internet purchases can be.

 

[Gafferbill]

I do not like using any jack as they are bl##dy dangerous things let alone on dodgy surfaces such as campsites.
Would it not be possible to fit just one al-ko wheel lock when on site as it can be aligned with your mover if you have one?
No jacking would then be necessary.
Do insurance companies require two to be fitted?

.......I do not have a twin axle caravan so could have got this wrong

 

[Gabsgrandad]

I agree jacking up a caravan to fit a wheel lock is very dodgy, mine (at home) has to be parked with the A – frame up to a fence, put in by motor mover (single axle), and of course the receiver socket never ever lines up, and I have insufficient room to shunt the van about to get the alignment. So I have to jack the van up to get the alignment. Of course you can’t have the handbrake on as you have to rotate the wheel to get that alignment, so I leave the motor mover engaged (both sides) which acts as a brake and the jockey wheel supported on its “heel” on a block, then jack the van up. I then rotate the wheel to align, by using the motor mover remote to just turn the lock side wheel, (obviously press the right button and only that side wheel turns) this method works for me.

 

[TonyG]

I do not like using any jack as they are bl##dy dangerous things let alone on dodgy surfaces such as campsites.
Would it not be possible to fit just one al-ko wheel lock when on site as it can be aligned with your mover if you have one?
No jacking would then be necessary.
Do insurance companies require two to be fitted?

.......I do not have a twin axle caravan so could have got this wrong

I have a twin Axle and totally refuse to jack the van up to put the Alko wheels locks on.... stupid invention!!!
I contacted my insurance company (Towergate) and told them i was not prepared to jack the van up, they told me to put one Alko on and one ordinary wheel clamp on without effecting policy... which is what i do and i also have it in writing from Towergate
Jack the caravan up !!! Sod that for a game of soliders

 

[xtrailman]

I agree jacking up a caravan to fit a wheel lock is very dodgy, mine (at home) has to be parked with the A – frame up to a fence, put in by motor mover (single axle), and of course the receiver socket never ever lines up, and I have insufficient room to shunt the van about to get the alignment. So I have to jack the van up to get the alignment. Of course you can’t have the handbrake on as you have to rotate the wheel to get that alignment, so I leave the motor mover engaged (both sides) which acts as a brake and the jockey wheel supported on its “heel” on a block, then jack the van up. I then rotate the wheel to align, by using the motor mover remote to just turn the lock side wheel, (obviously press the right button and only that side wheel turns) this method works for me.

I have the same issue, but park up to a shed.
I've thought about using the mover while jacked up, but wont that put a strain on the mover roller, as its not allowing the suspension to drop?
The problem I've found jacking up is the wheel moves when its lowered down, if you know what i mean, usually takes two or three attempts, as i like to fit the clamp with the suspension settled.

 

[RONALD5555]

My van has two Alko Wheel Locks. I am insured with the Caravan Club, and after speaking to them I elected not to take the discount for using them. The difference was under £5. I use 1 Alko lock and my older type of wheel lock when parked at the Storage site, and just the old wheel lock when on holiday site. There is then no need to use any Jack.

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Quote -
I have the same issue, but park up to a shed.
I've thought about using the mover while jacked up, but wont that put a strain on the mover roller, as its not allowing the suspension to drop?
The problem I've found jacking up is the wheel moves when its lowered down, if you know what i mean, usually takes two or three attempts, as i like to fit the clamp with the suspension settled.

I don't fit the lock with the suspension extended. I have "learnt" how much movement of the suspension there is from raised to lowered position so move the wheel to that position when raised, then when lowered reciever centralises and then fit lock. 99 times out of hundred it works first time.

 

[otherclive]

Wow and I thought that I was totally out of step when I first saw the Alko locks and could not help but think "you must be joking!" Clearly Alko gave this job to someone who lived on planet Zogg and had no idea what a caravan was. I take much interest watching people jack up the van and try to line up the Alko lock with its receiver especially when the van is unhitched from the car and all some do is wedge one wheel and the nosewheel while lifting the other wheel. An inherently unstable process and one very likely to result in damage to the van or possibly the occupant. Why not leave the van hitched to the car, jack it up remove the wheel and put a winter wheel on instead (only joking). The industry must be able to come up with something better. In the meantime I will carry on with my hitchlock, wheel lock and two steady locks when touring.

 

[Dustydog]

Top is N/S Kojack brackets, centre O/S Kojack brackets. Note they sandwich the Al-Ko chassis and are substantial heavy engineered jacking brackets.
Bottom left is undamaged Al-ko bracket, right is the damaged one which has bent through 90degs!!
The Kojack Lite bottle jack is just over 4kgs, comes in its own pretty orange bag and is easily stowed in the caravan front locker.
Hooray no more lugging around a trolley jack.
What a shame Al-ko and or the caravan manufacturers didn't get it right themselves.

 

[otherclive]

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