Am I Legal?

[Lovo]

Hello all.

just took the plunge and ordered a new tow car. we went for.

Insignia 1.6cdti SRI (136bhp) - kerbweight 1613kg - gross weight - 2140kg.

The caravan in question is a Bailey persuit 530/4 with a MTPLM - 1377kg.

The total weight for the outfit is 3517kg.

My question to you all is - I passed my driving test june 1997 so only hold a cat b licence with a MAM of 3500Kg. So do I need to take the cat B&E test or can I just ensure that the total weight is lower that 3500kg by carefully loading the car and van.

My wife holds a pre jan 1997 licence so thats my other option!!! dont think she would be to keen to do the drive to the Vendee next year though. :lol:

I would be greatful for your thoughts.

Thansks in advance.

Tony

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

My question to you all is - I passed my driving test june 1997 so only hold a cat b licence with a MAM of 3500Kg.

Q1 - So do I need to take the cat B&E test

Q2 - or can I just ensure that the total weight is lower that 3500kg by carefully loading the car and van.

Q1 - YES

Q2 - NO

Edit - not sure now after re-reading the confusing statements on the government website.

 

[Raywood]

I would see if you have free legal advice which you can get if you are a member of either of the clubs or it may be available from your car or house insurer or any union that you are a member of.
I thought you were able to drive the outfit as long as you kept below 3,500 but the advice available is not clear, I think the rules changed for those passing their test a t a later date.

 

[saint-spoon]

if the car and c-van are already heavier than 3500 then how will carefully loading them make them lighter? are you to fill them with helium balloons?

 

[ProfJohnL]

The underlying legislation requires CatB drivers not to exceed a COMBINED MAM of 3500kg

MAM Stands for Maximum Authorised Mass and is to the weight capacity of the outfit.

Part loading does not reduce the capacity, so the combined MAM does not change.

You will need cat BE or B+E on your licence to legally drive this outfit.

 

[Lovo]

Thanks all for your replies. I ended up getting a towsure quote which confirmed that the outfit was over at 3516kg.

I spent the night fretting. In the morning contacted the car dealership and asked them to send me a copy of the actual V5 doc for the car so that I could double check the weights. To my delight the maximum permissible mass was 20kg lighter than the towsure quote. So I'm presuming that the weights stated on the V5 are legally the ones I should use? If this is the case the outfit comes in 3kg below the maximum limit for my licence.

1.6cdti insignia SRI - Max Permissible Mass 2120kg .taken from the V5.

Bailey Persiit 530/4 MTPLW 1377KG

TOTAL 3497KG

Just scraped it I thinks.

Cheers Tony

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Don't be a chicken, go for a B+E.

 

[Lovo]

No thanks Woodlands, think I'll save that for another caravan change in the distant future hopefully.

However I did quite fancy the idea of Mrs Lovo diving me all the way to the south of France next year. Hmmmm, I might keep this little bit of good news under my hat for a while.

Thanks again all.

Tony

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks all for your replies. I ended up getting a towsure quote which confirmed that the outfit was over at 3516kg.

I spent the night fretting. In the morning contacted the car dealership and asked them to send me a copy of the actual V5 doc for the car so that I could double check the weights. To my delight the maximum permissible mass was 20kg lighter than the towsure quote. So I'm presuming that the weights stated on the V5 are legally the ones I should use? If this is the case the outfit comes in 3kg below the maximum limit for my licence.

1.6cdti insignia SRI - Max Permissible Mass 2120kg .taken from the V5.

Bailey Persiit 530/4 MTPLW 1377KG

TOTAL 3497KG

Just scraped it I thinks.

Cheers Tony

Hello Tony,

I must advise caution. Regardless of whats printed on the V5c ( which should in theory be accurate,) if you are stopped the authorities will look at the weight plate attached to the car. The Top figure is the GVW which is the same as the MAM. You need to stipulate to your car dealer that if the GVW on the plate is different to that printed on the V5 such that it takes you over your 3500kg limit then you will not accept the car as it is not as described , and is not fit for the purpose you have clearly advised them.

 

[Lovo]

Thanks John.

But if did end up in court and produced my evidence of a validated accurate V5 doc. Whose at fault certainly not me. Or should I go on the advice of towsure? Think ill stick with the legal document in my favour.

Cheers Tony

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks John.

But if did end up in court and produced my evidence of a validated accurate V5 doc. Whose at fault certainly not me. Or should I go on the advice of towsure? Think ill stick with the legal document in my favour.

Cheers Tony

Rhetorical question: how do you prove a V5c document is " validated accurate" ???

I never ever suggest taking the results of a matching service as gospel, as they all contain errors. It is the legal responsibility of the driver to ensure they are licenced to drive the vehicle and to ensure the vehicle(s) are in fully legal and roadworthy condition.

I repeat that I you are stopped by the authorities, they will use the data plates on the outfit to establish the combined MAM. The paper document is supplementary to the data plates.

 

[Lovo]

Thanks John.

Let's hope the V5 and the vehicle plate match!!! Pick the car up Monday evening so I will let you know if I'm celebrating or booking a Cat B&E test!!!

Cheers Tony

 

[RayS]

Hello Tony, you've had the definitive answers about weight marking etc. but I wanted to encourage you to get your lady involved with towing.
We had to do this a few years ago due to temporary sight problems. I found a local company who do training for trailer and HGV towing and the gentleman there gave my wife about 3.5 hours towing practice using our car and their trailer for a very reasonable cost. For the next my wife - not in the first flush of youth (our combined age is well over 150) - towed all the way to south east Spain and back including onto and off the ferries and including one 400+ mile day. I did the navigation and contributed the occasion 'helpful' suggestion on choice of lane etc.

Subsequently, we split the driving on long haul. I do the morning stint and she takes over after the lunch stop. This is at her request - she enjoys towing. I am happy since i can now have a glass of wine with my lunch. It is also comforting to know that if I have accident or illness we can probably get home without the complications of recovery..

Towing in Europe is generally much less fraught than in UK especially if you are prepared to spent the money on tolls and use the French autoroutes. We find it well worth while - more relaxing, generally quicker for a given max road speed, easy pull-offs for lunch etc. We have a SANEF tag which means we don't have to stop and use credit cards etc at the toll gates.

So why not try it ? and if the trainer you have chosen seems good, have a go yourself - he will probaably run a refresher for the B+E test. Their trailers are generally smaller than a caravan which may help in this respect too.

 

[Lovo]

Thanks for the advice Ray

In fairness to Mrs Lovo we have been to France several times and she has done an equal share of the towing.

Really looking foward to another adventure next year.

Regards Tony

 

[DaveA1]

The vin plate on my insignia gives a range of weights 2170/2235 which must vary for the different model trims, mine's a R.E. Auto, The 2170kg is given in the V5. So I based my calculations on the larger figure. I have a Challenger 442 fully loaded 1235 kg + 2235 kg = 3470 kg I passed my test in 1972 but I think I lost my towing entitlement when a renewed at 70, (I think) so I made sure I was within 3500 kg.

Will VOSA take note of the V5 figure or the larger figure on the vin plate?? What a mine field it is :woohoo:

 

[Raywood]

The vin plate on my insignia gives a range of weights 2170/2235 which must vary for the different model trims, mine's a R.E. Auto, The 2170kg is given in the V5. So I based my calculations on the larger figure. I have a Challenger 442 fully loaded 1235 kg + 2235 kg = 3470 kg I passed my test in 1972 but I think I lost my towing entitlement when a renewed at 70, (I think) so I made sure I was within 3500 kg.

Will VOSA take note of the V5 figure or the larger figure on the vin plate?? What a mine field it is :woohoo:

You should have kept the towing allowance when you renewed your licence. I have just renewed mine and it is there. It should show BE on the licence, if not contact the DVLA to get it corrected.

 

[paws]

Hi Dave
I had hoped that more of the experts on the forum as well as Ray and me would respond to your post as I know the whole question of towing weights and licencing etc can prove to be a real nightmare for "ordinary mortals" like us, who just want to tow their van, have fun and be legal and of course as responsible as we can.

This subject is not made any easier by a certain amount of ambiguity and even misinformation, that when mixed in with a goodly amount of published jargon, abbreviations and acronyms, has compounded the difficulties, and been responsible for a great deal of hair loss, for folks who have been trying to understand it all !!!

It is not unknown for even the official Government websites to make errors and publish incorrect, ambiguous or misleading information and indeed some of the senior members of our forum here have had to correct them ! and bless their hearts the folks responsible for the websites have sometimes made alterations to them.... some of the alterations have helped but alas others may have had the opposite effect!

Because "user friendly" information tends to try and simplify the meanings in the Acts of Parliament and all the attendant Rules and Regulations, there is a great risk of loss of precision, in exact meanings and interpretations that, unfortunately all add to the general confusion.

When I reached age 70, I tried to "refresh" my understanding of the position on towing, weights, MAMs, MTPLM, Cat b, Cat be, Cat B+E licencing and all the other fun topics that Government have decided is vital for us all to adhere to.

I gave it my best shot, I swear I did, but after hours and hours of research I had to admit defeat!

In the end I came across what I thought was some very helpful words from the Caravan club: here's an extract from a 2009 document (do check that the info is still current)

YOUR DRIVING ENTITLEMENT ON RENEWING AT THE AGE OF 70
On reaching the age of 70, drivers will retain their driving entitlement for Category B and Category B+E (provided Category B+E was held prior to the expiry date of their driving licence).

Category B+E entitles drivers to drive a motor vehicle (ie car, van or 4x4) not exceeding 3.5 tonnes Maximum Authorised Mass* (MAM), drawing/towing any weight trailer/caravan within the prescribed maximum towing weight. The maximum towing weight will be specified in the technical data section of the vehicle manufacturer’s handbook.

Here's a link to the full article:
http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/1022874/drivers-licences-mo.pdf
You will need to scroll down a little for the bit about age 70 etc.,

I know the Caravan club is not as authoritative as the Acts of Parliament and all the Rules and Regulations, but at least I could read it and understand it, without making my head hurt...well not too much anyway!
Happy Caravanning
paws

 

[ProfJohnL]

The vin plate on my insignia gives a range of weights 2170/2235 which must vary for the different model trims, mine's a R.E. Auto, The 2170kg is given in the V5. So I based my calculations on the larger figure. I have a Challenger 442 fully loaded 1235 kg + 2235 kg = 3470 kg I passed my test in 1972 but I think I lost my towing entitlement when a renewed at 70, (I think) so I made sure I was within 3500 kg.

Will VOSA take note of the V5 figure or the larger figure on the vin plate?? What a mine field it is :woohoo:

Hello Dave,
I'm confused by your posting. The VIN plate relates to specification of the vehicle to which it is attached. All the plates I have seen on EU cars capable of towing have four mass limits starting with the GVM followed by the GTM then front axle mas load then rear axle maximum load. They should never give range values.

Looking on google images I cannot find an example of an insignia weight plate where there is a range rather than single limits.

 

[JonnyG]

just out of curiosity exactly what will happen to you if Vosa do stop you and your MAM is over by 10 or 20kg giving and assuming your actual weights are still well under 3500kg and all because the V5 States you are OK but your plate shows you to be 10 or 20kg over ? i know Vosa do normally give hgv lorries a 5% over plate before taking serious action so i do wonder what they would do in the case of an outfit being over its MAM but not actually being over weight ? would be interested if indeed it went to court, which i highly doubt what a magistrate would make of all this hum bug....it appears we are not too far from a time where we will need a degree in humbug to be able to drive!

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

...it appears we are not too far from a time where we will need a degree in humbug to be able to drive!

No need for degrees as we won't be driving in any case. The cars will be driver-less, nearly there already with self parking, lane control, traffic sign recognition, emergency stopping if too close, etc, etc.

 

[ProfJohnL]

just out of curiosity exactly what will happen to you if Vosa do stop you and your MAM is over by 10 or 20kg giving and assuming your actual weights are still well under 3500kg and all because the V5 States you are OK but your plate shows you to be 10 or 20kg over ? i know Vosa do normally give hgv lorries a 5% over plate before taking serious action so i do wonder what they would do in the case of an outfit being over its MAM but not actually being over weight ? would be interested if indeed it went to court, which i highly doubt what a magistrate would make of all this hum bug....it appears we are not too far from a time where we will need a degree in humbug to be able to drive!

Hello Johnny,
The point in debate is the legitimacy of what the Driver can drive, which is different issue to the outfit being overloaded. A driver without Cat BE or B+E is limited to a combined MAM not exceeding 3500kg. That is a very simple addition of the cars MAM and the trailers MAM or in the case of caravans it's MTPLM. Even if the sum is only 1kg over 3500kg, then a Cat B only driver is in breach of their licence .

The possible issues of surrounding exceeding the vehicles weight limits have been discussed at length elsewhere. Again technically an over load by as little as 1KG could in theory lead to a prosecution, In practice becasue such a matter would need to be proved by actually weighing the outfit, there is a degree of uncertainty due to the capability of weighbridges. As most weighbridges will only provide a record with a +/-20kg uncertainty, it's unlikely a small overload would lead to prosecution. It more likely the outfit would be prevented from continuing until the overload had been cleared. The decision about that would be in the hands of the officers undertaking the inspection, and based on the degree of overload, or if they suspected any premeditation. Decisions about warnings or prosecution may be guided by policy of the Police force.

 

[JonnyG]

just out of curiosity exactly what will happen to you if Vosa do stop you and your MAM is over by 10 or 20kg giving and assuming your actual weights are still well under 3500kg and all because the V5 States you are OK but your plate shows you to be 10 or 20kg over ? i know Vosa do normally give hgv lorries a 5% over plate before taking serious action so i do wonder what they would do in the case of an outfit being over its MAM but not actually being over weight ? would be interested if indeed it went to court, which i highly doubt what a magistrate would make of all this hum bug....it appears we are not too far from a time where we will need a degree in humbug to be able to drive!

Hello Johnny,
The point in debate is the legitimacy of what the Driver can drive, which is different issue to the outfit being overloaded. A driver without Cat BE or B+E is limited to a combined MAM not exceeding 3500kg. That is a very simple addition of the cars MAM and the trailers MAM or in the case of caravans it's MTPLM. Even if the sum is only 1kg over 3500kg, then a Cat B only driver is in breach of their licence .

The possible issues of surrounding exceeding the vehicles weight limits have been discussed at length elsewhere. Again technically an over load by as little as 1KG could in theory lead to a prosecution, In practice becasue such a matter would need to be proved by actually weighing the outfit, there is a degree of uncertainty due to the capability of weighbridges. As most weighbridges will only provide a record with a +/-20kg uncertainty, it's unlikely a small overload would lead to prosecution. It more likely the outfit would be prevented from continuing until the overload had been cleared. The decision about that would be in the hands of the officers undertaking the inspection, and based on the degree of overload, or if they suspected any premeditation. Decisions about warnings or prosecution may be guided by policy of the Police force.

hi proff. i am even more stumped now. i was asking about MAM. hypothetically lets say the car v5 states MAM at 2150kg .the caravan MAM being 1350kg for a total of 3500kg and then one finds the plate on the car states otherwise and the car has a mam 2160kg. so in theory a MAM total of 3510 kg . 10kg above a drivers licence entitlement . i wondered how that might pan out . i make no suggestion that the outfit is being towed at max MAM so one can assume the outfit is not overloaded and is below the 3500kg threshold for said driver ... so weighting the outfit be VOSA and the accuracy of any weighbridge is irrelevant... i am more concerned about the, "in practice" rather than the "in theory".. would Vosa or the police actually stop the outfit from carrying on given it is not actually being driven overloaded ? .

 

[DaveA1]

Hi Dave
I had hoped that more of the experts on the forum as well as Ray and me would respond to your post as I know the whole question of towing weights and licencing etc can prove to be a real nightmare for "ordinary mortals" like us, who just want to tow their van, have fun and be legal and of course as responsible as we can.

This subject is not made any easier by a certain amount of ambiguity and even misinformation, that when mixed in with a goodly amount of published jargon, abbreviations and acronyms, has compounded the difficulties, and been responsible for a great deal of hair loss, for folks who have been trying to understand it all !!!

It is not unknown for even the official Government websites to make errors and publish incorrect, ambiguous or misleading information and indeed some of the senior members of our forum here have had to correct them ! and bless their hearts the folks responsible for the websites have sometimes made alterations to them.... some of the alterations have helped but alas others may have had the opposite effect!

Because "user friendly" information tends to try and simplify the meanings in the Acts of Parliament and all the attendant Rules and Regulations, there is a great risk of loss of precision, in exact meanings and interpretations that, unfortunately all add to the general confusion.

When I reached age 70, I tried to "refresh" my understanding of the position on towing, weights, MAMs, MTPLM, Cat b, Cat be, Cat B+E licencing and all the other fun topics that Government have decided is vital for us all to adhere to.

I gave it my best shot, I swear I did, but after hours and hours of research I had to admit defeat!

In the end I came across what I thought was some very helpful words from the Caravan club: here's an extract from a 2009 document (do check that the info is still current)

YOUR DRIVING ENTITLEMENT ON RENEWING AT THE AGE OF 70
On reaching the age of 70, drivers will retain their driving entitlement for Category B and Category B+E (provided Category B+E was held prior to the expiry date of their driving licence).

Category B+E entitles drivers to drive a motor vehicle (ie car, van or 4x4) not exceeding 3.5 tonnes Maximum Authorised Mass* (MAM), drawing/towing any weight trailer/caravan within the prescribed maximum towing weight. The maximum towing weight will be specified in the technical data section of the vehicle manufacturer’s handbook.

Here's a link to the full article:
http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/1022874/drivers-licences-mo.pdf
You will need to scroll down a little for the bit about age 70 etc.,

I know the Caravan club is not as authoritative as the Acts of Parliament and all the Rules and Regulations, but at least I could read it and understand it, without making my head hurt...well not too much anyway!
Happy Caravanning
paws

Thanks Paws
I wasn't sure. What it has given me is a very stable outfit (78%) and just above 30 mpg Towing.

 

[DaveA1]

Hi Prof

My vin plate shows two mams as photo of vin plate shows, that's if it's loaded.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...hi proff. i am even more stumped now. i was asking about MAM. hypothetically lets say the car v5 states MAM at 2150kg .the caravan MAM being 1350kg for a total of 3500kg and then one finds the plate on the car states otherwise and the car has a mam 2160kg. so in theory a MAM total of 3510 kg . 10kg above a drivers licence entitlement . i wondered how that might pan out . i make no suggestion that the outfit is being towed at max MAM so one can assume the outfit is not overloaded and is below the 3500kg threshold for said driver ... so weighting the outfit be VOSA and the accuracy of any weighbridge is irrelevant... i am more concerned about the, "in practice" rather than the "in theory".. would Vosa or the police actually stop the outfit from carrying on given it is not actually being driven overloaded ? .

Hello Johnny,

Accepting your scenario of a 10K discrepancy between the V5c and plated weight, and that the hypothetical out fit weighs less than the 3500kg.

Firstly the authorities will not have immediate access to the paper records about the vehicle, but they will have access to the weight plate on the vehicles in front of them, and from that visible information they will easily ascertain the combined MAM is over the drivers 3500 Cat B limit. Thus the driver is driving without a licence for the vehicle. That is the offence.

As the outfit is within its weight limits it is not impounded for that reason, but the driver would not be allowed to remove the outfit from the check point, as it exceeds his entitlement. He could of course unhitch the trailer and proceed to either return with a capable tow car with a lower MAM, or he would have to arrange to get a driver with the BE or B+E entitlement to remove the whole outfit.