Are Caravans becoming more of a Weighty Problem & Creating Aside Issues?.

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all. Is it me or what?.In this day & age of Technological Advantages in Material (lightweight & yet immensely strong)there appears to be a growing number of vans getting heavier,the end result is that it is creating a swing towards WE MUST GET A BIGGER & HEAVIER TOW CAR or at least a Diesel variant of the current one or worse still a BIGGER & HEAVIER TOW-CAR/VEHICLE in the guise of A CHELSEA TRACTOR. HUMMERS are now for NOTHING; what few were sold in the UK.
There appears to be a much wider use of MDF or similar Particle Board and the Wood Effect Vinyl Veneer to create what was achieved in the past with 3mm&4mm Plywood and frame sections grooved to accept the panels.The Gable Ends were of suitably slightly heavier sections.
A case in point;My old 1992 Fleetwood Colchester 1850 Double Dinette Twin Axle was MiRO 1140kgs(ALLEGEDLY !!?) & MTPLM 1600kgs,the nearest current and very close comparable van is the Explore 596 at MiRO 1327kgs & MTPLM 1550kgs (50kgs less?).
Our new (to us)van is a 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco Twin Axle,MiRO 1426kgs & MTPLM 1750kgs.The new Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco is MiRO 1612kgs & MTPLM 1850kgs.As Cilla once bellowed out:-What's it All About Alfie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???.
The current endeavours in the Motor Industry to create Lighter & therefore more efficient vehicles and using less energy to produce them is fine;but it creates a seemingly TOG of WAR situation.
The HOLY GRAIL of DATA for all things CARAVANS & TOWING is not (my own personal findings/experience)the place that I would look into; nor be persuaded that it is the place to seek advice/figures/data from.My own car (very specific entry) is listed with several different kerbweights, non of them is accurate by a long margin.This to a Novice Caravanner could sway a move to an unnecessarily heavier and more expensive vehicle than is needed ;or even worse still CHANCE TAKING with potential disaster in their wake.

 

[Lutz]

With cars becoming lighter in order for car manufacturers to be able to meet exhaust emissions requirements and caravans becoming heavier due to customers' preference for ever more convenience items on board, the industry will just have to approach the problem from a different angle. A lot of progress has already been made since cars were fitted first with ABS brakes, later ESP, now Trailer Stability Programmes. All these improvements have allowed safe operation of outfits at steadily increasing weight ratios. Sooner or later we will just have to get used to weight ratios of 100% or more and rely on technical features to ensure that potential disaster is avoided.

 

[JTQ]

Sooner or later we will just have to get used to weight ratios of 100% or more and rely on technical features to ensure that potential disaster is avoided.

From my observations the Dutch caravanners have been trail-blazing this 100+% ratio for quite a while; they have even found ways to travel well over 100kmh.
Personnaly I have no great issues with ratios above 85% with the likes of ATC, provided there is a person with commonsense holding the steeringwheel and toeing the pedals. The ATC certainly lets you know if anything is wrong; it however needs something to check if it has gone wrong, IMO.

 

[chrisbee1]

The ATC certainly lets you know if anything is wrong; it however needs something to check if it has gone wrong, IMO

When stopping for a break on a recent trip home from France I had a steady Red led showing. Nothing I tried would give me a Green. As the instructions said the caravan was ok to use but the ATC wasn't working I carried on. At the next stop I had a Green showing, the following stop a Red again.
I contacted Al-ko when I got home and found them very helpfull, apparently the log memory was full but can be cleared by leaving the S plug connected for at least 12 hours. The problem is that if the log memory gets full, the ATC will stop working but you won't be aware of it.

 

[chopper1]

I have to agree. My 1996 Lunar Planet Eclipse has an MTPLM of 1200kg. Today's equivalent, the Lunar Quasar 524, is 1340kg. Basically, 4 berth, end washroom, mid dinette/bunk (and the L shape seating at the front). And being a Lunar this is the lighter end of that grade of van. The Swift Charisma 560 has an MTPLM of 1450kg!

To get a newer but similarly laid out van and keep within the 85% recommendation, I'd have to upgrade from my 2008 BMW 320d to something more expensive, more fuel thirsty, more expensive on tax and more expensive to insure.

Ian

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Yes Chaps,all this new towing related technology is Fine & Dandy if we could all afford the The Fine & Dandy Cars &Caravans. However, when the Technology is linked to computers (Black Boxes/ECU's & the like) and it/they; has/haves a hiccup then all the technology in the world could be a Fat Lot of Good.That is; except of course for the purposes of looking at why it went wrong despite the fact that there were no warning lights,bells are whistles going off.
ABS brakes are fine and so is traction control but I don't relish the day that I am driving home with the caravan in tow and come across a bad surface and all of my gizmo's work and bring me & my caravan to a safe and comfortable stop;only to be belted from behind by a New Caravanner driving a car that doesn't have the technology & pulling a van that is on the limit of the current 85% of Kerbweight recommended for those new to it all. It could be a whole lot worse if the current thinking of increasing the percentage from 85% to 90% is implemented. It (5%) is not a massive difference,but couple that with a badly loaded/trimmed outfit and an inexperienced caravanner & WHOOPEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
To put this 5% into tangible terms,a Novice Caravanner with a typical medium size family car at Kerbweight 1500kgs @ 85% that puts 1275kgs on the back ,if it is increased to 90% that goes up to1350kgs.That is 75kgs more of a problem to bring to a halt.
If the same Novice Caravanner has say a Mitsubishi Shogun or Kia Sorrento at Circa 2050kgs then 85% is 1742kgs,if it goes up to 90% then that is increased to 1845kgs.That is 103kgs more of a problem to bring to a halt.
Finally,in the words of Jimmy Cricket :-and there's more.If that same Novice Caravanner borrows Dadies Range Rover Vogue at 2717kgs and and is working to the same figures of was 85% but now I can go to 90% (I will leave the calculations to you,one &all) but the likely outcome is not Rocket Science. Bringing an outfit to a speedy & safe stop is all about recognition of a need and reaction times coupled with road & the outfits condition/trim.This surely is why the recommended 85% for beginners should remain.

 

[Lutz]

I would challenge anyone to be able to tell the difference between the way an outfit at 85% handles to the way the same outfit would be at 90%. That's not to say that the weight ratio is of no consequence, but there are so many other factors that determine stability, some a lot more important, that weight ratio alone should not be overrated.
Besides, even though no electronic gadgetry is 100% fail-safe it is still a lot more reliable than the average driver and certainly much quicker to react.

 

[DeliDave_]

The ATC certainly lets you know if anything is wrong; it however needs something to check if it has gone wrong, IMO When stopping for a break on a recent trip home from France I had a steady Red led showing. Nothing I tried would give me a Green. As the instructions said the caravan was ok to use but the ATC wasn't working I carried on. At the next stop I had a Green showing, the following stop a Red again. I contacted Al-ko when I got home and found them very helpfull, apparently the log memory was full but can be cleared by leaving the S plug connected for at least 12 hours. The problem is that if the log memory gets full, the ATC will stop working but you won't be aware of it.

I would like some kind of a point on the ATC where you could download the memory and see at what point it had been engaged.I havent felt it many times but thats not to say it doesnt cut in lots of times.Did they say how many times filled the memory log,also does it need any maintenance,nothing has been done to mine at service time afaik

 

[Lutz]

The LEAS stabiliser which is very similar to the AlKo ATC has a warning buzzer in the towcar that lets you know whenever the system is deployed. It can also be set to warn if the caravan's brakes are about to fade (it buzzes when the brake shoe temperature reaches 140°C).

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi JTQ

I have a problem with your assertion that all you need is ‘the person holding the steering wheel uses common sense’. The problem is that everyone uses common sense, but it isn’t always right.

The use of ‘common’ in this type of scenario implies ‘common’ equates to ‘good’ or ‘right’ ‘correct’ etc

Can you imagine a Yorkshire lad being told to “go owt an hve common time” when in fact they meant ‘right good time’?
The driver should use “good sense”, because by its very nature it is always right.

 

[Guest]

Lutz makes the important point, that is the car industry has been dragged, kicking and screaming, into making their cars better to suit a strict set of rules.
Once they realised they had no choice, they then set about doing something about the many problems that needed to be faced, without the rules there was simply no incentive to spend the money required.
So, I've had two caravans, the first an earlier model of the second and some 16yrs apart, both are 5.5M body length and the first just under 1000kg empty, the second 1180kg!, apart from 50mm taller inside and 'blinds'!, the second is on a much lighter Alko chassis with composite walls, has no more goodies than the early one sat on a solid welded channel chassis with far more wood in the thicker alloy walls, yet more than 180kg heavier?!
Beats me why the weights are not the other way round?, 16 years and all the van industry have done is go backwards, nothing will change until they are forced to!

As an aside then, I was surfing for something regarding Composite front doors last night, as you do, and came across one companies website where one of the headings was 'Caravan Floors'?
Well it turns out they make a recycled plastic lightweight, super strong, totally weather proof, high insulation value floor to suit caravans, any van manufacturer use it?.... don't talk daft!

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all.
the OP asked if caravans are geting heavier siteting some comparisons, the answer is of course they are. the trouble is owners want more goodies in thier vans so the weight goes up to accomodate this despite (and they really do use lighter materials in construction) the use of better construction methods. its just the fact that vans are phisically bigger than they used to be and as a consequence heavier.
when I started caravanning a 16ft sprite was a big van the average was about 11/12ft and most weighed around half a ton, seeing has the average car like the cortina weighed 3/4 of a ton most people could tow a van with the family car at around 70/80% dont forget this was the time the golden rule "that isn't" was born, as a guide you could guess the weight of a van by its size "exept of course the ones with real wood in them", by as a rough guide at 1cwt per ft. of course this was in old money before the law changed no MTPLM's OR MIRO's back then and come to think of it no hot water, proper loos full size cookers and fridges, or fixed beds either. just a bucket with a seat on and a 5gallon water container.

by comparison our new fully equipped van is just short of 4mtrs with a MTPLM of 1050kg or near enough 260kg per mtr or if my sums are right just over 1 imperial ton, so yes heavier by size but there the comparison ends would anyone go back to the old sprite just to save a bit of weight not me thats for sure.

to be honest I believe most start caravanning on a false premiss by buying the van they like the best and then worry about what is going to tow it, instead of this is my tow car what van can I get?? there are plenty of modern vans out there light enough to be towed by the average car you just have to compromise a bit if you do ATC and fancy gizmos are not required as the weight ratio will be better.
colin

 

[Delt1c]

My 1st van (over 20 years ago) was 16ft long and weighed in around 800kg and had such luxuries as cold running water, and a couple of 12v s and had a couple of strip lights. At the time I thought it was the lap of luxury. Current van is 26ft long and weighs in at 1700kg all the extras that I want ranging from hot air heating, oven, fridge, shower etc, use it 12 months a year in complete comfort. Car was changed before aquiring the van for the very reason that I intended to get a bigger van. Now if you can squeeze all the amenities of my current van into the size of my origonal van at the origonal weight and give me the interior space, then fine. But as that is not possible I am quite happy with the current outfit, whilst the vans are getting bigger and heavier the towing characteristics of the current van is far better than the 1st yet the ratio is almost the same.
Manufacturers have in the past attempted to produce basic vans which were lighter , but they rarely got the sales requiered.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to one and all. Yes, but the reasons for Caravans getting Larger therefore Heavier is not the general rule; At All !!.
Look at the products from Lunar Caravans (The Masters of Lightweight Caravan Building).At the top end of their Delta & Lexon ranges the Big Twin Axles are (if fully loaded)well capable of being pulled by some of the Modern Generation large hatchbacks & estate cars. If as the trend that is now coming to light;older members of the Caravan Lot and in-particular those with a few years of Towing Experience are going for the larger vans and using them as Luxury 2berth accommodation;then watch out you builders of OTT MiRO Caravans.
My own last two choices(three years apart) have been on just that basis.The difference in my case (the current van)I have opted for a van with a greater MTPLM than my max towing weight and load it to within the max towing weight for the car.The difference between the MiRO of the van (1426kgs but confirmed as 1440kgs) and my max tow is 150+kgs.The, as good as empty Volvo T5 is more than is needed for anything else.

 

[Lutz]

I am surprised that you get by with 150kg payload. I struggle to keep within the 400kg that my caravan allows.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

I am surprised that you get by with 150kg payload. I struggle to keep within the 400kg that my caravan allows.

Hi Lutz,just to recap,I pointed out in my last statement of my last post:-that, I have an as good as empty Volvo T5.Also I pointed out that it is used as a 2berth.There are no Golf Clubs or Mountain Climbing orScuba Diving item to worry about.There are no kids & all of the Clap-Trap that is essential to keeping them away from other peoples property,for example:- The Stocks,The Manacles & other portable Restrictors & Restraints.
What is the point of having excess weight ?(incl, kids for that matter!!!)it has only got to be moved and that affects fuel consumption.The car will accommodate 350+kgs inclusive of me the 68kgs driver, the 75kgs tow-ball weight,my 74kgs front seat passenger and one 7kgs long-haired adjusted Tomcat.The Grandson @ 30kgs (if he is with us).

 

[Lutz]

I must pay my respects. Not only do I almost make full use of the 400kg payload for the caravan but the car is loaded right up to the sight line, too. My wife expects to be able to take everything including the kitchen sink with us on holiday and, because food is generallly cheaper in Germany than elsewhere, we have, at times, had up to 150kg of groceries alone on board for a long trip. Her rationale is, so long as the space is there, use it.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

I must pay my respects. Not only do I almost make full use of the 400kg payload for the caravan but the car is loaded right up to the sight line, too. My wife expects to be able to take everything including the kitchen sink with us on holiday and, because food is generallly cheaper in Germany than elsewhere, we have, at times, had up to 150kg of groceries alone on board for a long trip. Her rationale is, so long as the space is there, use it.

Perhaps it is time if you still have the weight capacity left to consider a Caravan Pitch (ground)breaking innovation and look for Roof Boxes for both to completely Waste not Want Not.
Regards,TheTravellingRooster.