Are these new French regulations affecting towing and camping?

[Surfer]

Can any one confirm whether true or not? Perhaps PC magazine can investigate?

This was posted on the Swift web site today 17/02/2013. Anyone come across this?
Living
in France, as I do, I thought it best if I inform you of some changes
to the rules and thousands (millions?) of regulations that took effect
from 19^th January 2013 which affect those of you who travel with large outfits. Most
of these new regulations only affect those who tow with a total ‘train’
weight i.e. car + caravan whose total gross weight exceeds 3500kg (3.5
tonnes). Weight, in this case, is called PTAC in France, and equates
to the MGPLW in Britain. You can find your caravan’s MGPLW on your ‘A’
frame plate, or in your manual. It doesn’t actually matter how much the
car or caravan actually weighs. Loaded up for holidays, I dare say most of you have exceeded these weights, but it’s irrelevant, it’s the published weight that matters. Don’t think that by underloading your ‘van you can get away with it. Again, it’s the published weight that matters
They
have taken advantage of a new batch of EU regulations to sneak these
changes in. The reason for the creation of these new rules is simply
because the French – although you will not find this written down
anywhere – hate, loathe, despise – or any unpleasant verb you can think
of – the ‘gens de voyage’ or the travellers, Romanies, Gypsies, call
them what you will, so, to force them off the road, they have
regulated. The 3 main points are:-

1. Driving Licences. It used
   to be that if you had a British driving license, you were automatically
   entitled to tow a caravan if your ‘train weight’ was up to 4.5 tonnes.
   This has changed. There are now three levels of license
   1. Up to 3.5
      tonnes (Permis B) – a normal UK license if fine, as long as your
      caravan is not heavier than your car. If it is, don’t bring it into
      France, it’s illegal unless you have the equivalent of at least (3)
      below.
   2. Between 3.5 and 4.5 tonnes (Permis E96). This is the
      newest level brought in at the insistence of the FFCC, the French
      Caravan Club, and has caused much confusion throughout France.
      Basically, if your UK driving license specifically states that you can
      tow a caravan, then it will be fine, otherwise, you must get your
      license endorsed by the DVLA. Not living in Britain any longer, I don’t
      know if this is chargeable.
   3. Over 4.5 tonnes (Permis EB - used to
      be an B/E - What? Confusion in France? They invented it!). The new
      regulation came into effect on 19^th January 2013, and as at today (17^th
      February) the full details have not yet been published – this is
      France, don’t forget! Most driving schools believe that if you are over
      60 then forget it: you will not be allowed on French roads with a train
      weight this big. French drivers over 60 are required to undergo a strict
      medical every 2 years to keep their EB licence and you are assumed to
      have failed unless you can prove that you are fit. It is
      believed that if you are under 60 you may need to have the equivalent of
      a PSV, or Heavy Goods license when the final details bcome available.
2. Speed
   Limits. For units over 3.5 tonnes, you will be restricted to a maximum
   of 90kph (about 56mph) on the French 'A' roads. ‘A’ roads are the roads
   where the speed limit for cars is 130 kph. If the speed limit is 110kph, then you are only allowed to do 90kph with a large caravan.
   So, don’t be fooled into thinking that because you are on a dual
   carriageway (usually an N road) you can do 90kph, you can’t, you can
   only do 80kph, which is the maximum speed on all other roads in France
   for you. At the same time new regulations have been passed to allow the
   police to set up speed traps wherever they want, and, believe me, they
   are. If you are caught speeding with a large caravan you run the risk of
   having your ‘van impounded until you have taken at least 7 hours of
   driving tests/ lessons. One further thing is that you must now display
   on the back of your caravan two stickers, one saying ‘80’ and the other
   ‘90’ - just in case you forget. The police are rather lax about this,
   they won’t stop you just for this, but if they feel in a bad mood if
   they do stop you, this is something else they will get you for.
3. Campings Municipals. Throughout France nearly every large town has its own camp site, run by the mairie
   (the town hall). Generally speaking, these sites are very good. Simple,
   but very well maintained. However, in January an ‘advisory note’ was
   sent to all mairies in France, which was to be kept secret.
   However, our local Secretary knew we were caravanners, so he showed it
   to us. In effect, all double-axle caravans (double-essieu) are
   now banned from every Camping Municipal throughout France, and pressure
   is to be put on all commercial sites to follow, although I do not
   believe this will be very successful. The mairies are also being
   encouraged to charge considerably more if you tow with a 4X4. This is
   probably the most direct regulation against the travellers, but it has
   had repercussions for caravanners from Britain, Holland, Germany etc who
   have no problems with double-axles. We have tried to explain that
   double-axles are probably kinder to the ground than a large single axle,
   but rules is rules.

There is one further thing,
which is an advisory from the FFCC. If you tow a double-axle caravan
(whatever its weight) then is advisable to carry a small folder to prove
that you have a fixed home, and don’t live in your caravan permanently.
In this folder you should have:-

• A copy of your caravan’s CRIS certificate
• A copy of your latest Council tax bill
• A copy of your latest electricity , water, telephone (not mobile), or gas bill
• A copy of your driving license (including the photo).
• A copy of your passport.

But, the important thing is to make sure that the same person’s name and address appear on all of these copies and that person is driving.
This only takes a couple of minutes to set up and it can be very useful
if you are asked to prove your identity in some remote part of France -
don’t forget that a passport doesn’t have your address on it.
All
this may sound oppressive, but if you are careful, it’s not that
difficult to tour around France and to see some of the wonderful towns
and scenery that we are blessed with here. The site owners or managers
are always very friendly and helpful, and if you have children you will
be welcomed with open arms.

 

[Lutz]

Driving licence requirements are common throughout the EU. The changes that came into effect in the UK on 13th January apply in France, too. The only thing that is specific is that the UK decided not to issue the new Category B96 licences that apply to outifts up to 4.25 tonnes (not 4.5 as stated above).
As for speed limits, it is my understanding that the 90km/h limit has applied in France to outfits over 3.5 tonnes for several years now and is not a recent change.

 

[Gybe]

As it works for loads of wasters that land on our shores. I'll scream my head off about our 'HUMAN RIGHTS' if we get hassled and offer them a few pegs and a sprig of lucky heather

The sooner the UK exits the EU the better!

If new French regs start to cause caravanning Brits problems I guess the Spanish, Italian, Dutch, German's and others will be on Frances case as very many of us travel through France to other countries.

 

[Lutz]

I don't know what you're on about, Gybe. On the one hand you're slamming the EU for having too much say in getting common agreements that make trade and travel across borders easier, the next minute you're complaining that countries are going their own way (not that this is the case here as I can't find anything specifically new in the French regs, at least regarding driving licence requirements and speed limits). I suggest you make your mind up what you want first.

 

[Gybe]

Britain joined the Common Market, a trading deal. The british people didn't vote for the fiasco we have now where Merkel and others don't know their place and the EU interferes with our UK and other countries finances and laws, courts and thousands of other things.
If the French are bringing in their own different rules as the post by Surfer suggests then once again there isn't a lot of hope with the 1 Europe idea. He's actually saying that as a twin axle towing Brit we could get labled and treated like Gypsies due to French racism, on the other hand we're told that under EU laws we in the UK can't prevent a load more scroungers entering the UK or throw them and others out.
Frankly, I don't vote for the likes of Hollande, Merkel or Signore Bunga Bunga or other European countries head politicians or MP's

I'd love to see European border crossings reinstated and the Euro done away with rather than what we have today. A trade agreement is one thing not the mess we in Britain endure

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

And there's no going back, we are virtually owned by Europe!

 

[Lutz]

Gybe, if you moan about any one country doing their own thing then surely that would be a case for the EU having more influence in allowing what each country is at liberty to do, not less.

I'd love to see European border crossings reinstated and the Euro done away with rather than what we have today. A trade agreement is one thing not the mess we in Britain endure

Even if the UK were to leave the EU, that wouldn't reinstate border controls within the EU nor would it do away with the Euro.

 

[anotherDavid]

Britain joined the Common Market, a trading deal. The british people didn't vote for the fiasco we have now where Merkel and others don't know their place and the EU interferes with our UK and other countries finances and laws, courts and thousands of other things.
If the French are bringing in their own different rules as the post by Surfer suggests then once again there isn't a lot of hope with the 1 Europe idea. He's actually saying that as a twin axle towing Brit we could get labled and treated like Gypsies due to French racism, on the other hand we're told that under EU laws we in the UK can't prevent a load more scroungers entering the UK or throw them and others out.
Frankly, I don't vote for the likes of Hollande, Merkel or Signore Bunga Bunga or other European countries head politicians or MP's so I dont want them F- - - - - - up my country, we can do that on our own

I'd love to see European border crossings reinstated and the Euro done away with rather than what we have today. A trade agreement is one thing not the mess we in Britain endure

This is not the place for a anti EU rant (most of which I agree with bye the way). This is obviously an elaborate hoax ,a mix of well known and sometimes enforced regulations, some lesser known and a good helping of rubbish to panic folks. Do you really believe this tripe about utilitiy bills etc.

 

[Surfer]

This is not the place for a anti EU rant (most of which I agree with bye the way). This is obviously an elaborate hoax ,a mix of well known and sometimes enforced regulations, some lesser known and a good helping of rubbish to panic folks. Do you really believe this tripe about utilitiy bills etc.

That was only advise and makes perfect sense if you want to prove your identity and ownership of the caravan. It makes it easier. Of course you can always travel without them and hope for the best when you get stopped for whatever reason.

 

[Lutz]

Do you really believe this tripe about utilitiy bills etc.

Exactly. Council tax, electricity, water and telephone bills are none of their business. One shouldn't even offer to show them such things.

 

[Gybe]

If anything EU related impacts on our caravanning trips this seems the right place to air it. All we need is a welcome in other countires and feedom to travel unhindered fo a few weeks each year with a unit that's insured and legal and safe in our own country! (obviously insured for overseas travel)
If the UK has the sense to get out of the EU without our money hopefully the Euro will crumble

I'm old enough to have travelled throughout Europe when you stopped at borders, it was never a problem and I only ever remember having one short delay at a border crossing. Apart from making travel more interesting it would help keep a check for terrorists and others with illegal agenda's hopping around freely.

 

[Lutz]

I hardly think that withdrawal of the UK would have much effect on the success or failure of the Euro. If you consider border controls to be so important, where are they between England and Wales or Scotland?
Anyway, why are you calling an issue which, if anything, is specifically French as EU related?
Regardless, who has confirmed that anyone is actually discriminating against visitors from the UK?

 

[Gybe]

The gist of Surfers post was that traveller gypsy types were discriminated against by the French and that other caravanners could get treated in the same way.
At the moment England, Wales and Scotland are one unit. If the Scots go it alone there is already a proposal for border controls.
There's not a lot of success with the EU at the moment and with or without the UK there's never likely to be especially with German and French politicians trying to lead the way

 

[otherclive]

I really dont see that the 'new' French 'rules' really change the price off eggs one bit. Lutz is correct re speed limits they have been in place for some time.. For those whose memory has been diminished with time you should recall the debate about 2 years ago as to whether Brtish caravans should have max kmhr speed limit plates affixed to them and a number of companies made a pretty penny selling them to gullible Brits.
The EU gets blamed for more than it deserves as its well knwn that British interpretation of directives are far more bureaucratic than those brought into law by other EU countries. Just look at our non smoking legislation has anyone been to a country where the non smoking sign says it is against the law to smoke in these premises.... on bus shelters, churches etc. Most other countries just have the international symbol for no smoking and dont plaster it everywhere.
I think the EU heads of goverment are at last realising that the citizens of the member nations are wanting less so-called interference in their daily round but UK leaving the EU is a non-starter as far as I am concerned as do we really think that the other 26 member states will not invoke changes and UK would have no input and failure to align would bar us from what is our largest trading area. Wake and smell the coffee.... but not Starbucks.

 

[anotherDavid]

Itinerants may not be very popular but anyone who visits France at grape harvest time will see who it is actually picking. I don't like sharing sites with them but I believe municipal sites where largely set up to accommodate necessary itinerant labor and I cant see any local authorities in the areas concerned wanting to drive them away. Regarding the EU business does anyone seriously imagine those border controls are ever going to be reintroduced its cuckoo land thinking as is the idea that us leaving would make a smite of difference to the future of the Euro

 

[Parksy]

May I remind forum members that Practical Caravan forum does not provide a platform for anti immigration rants, pro / anti EU comments or any other socio political sentiments which are outside our remit. Swear words, either written or implied with symbols replacing the 'missing letters' are not allowed on this forum.

There appears to be some confusion about this new legislation. Any changes to licence requirements apply to those who have passed their driving test after 19th January 2013, and a category B+E is already a requirement for UK drivers who tow an outfit with a gtw of over 3500kg - 7000kgs which means that nothing has changed in that respect if you drive a non commercial vehicle.
The speed restrictions on Autoroutes have been in place for some time. There is no legal requirement for a touring caravan owner to be in possession of a CRiS document but it is suggested as a good proof of ownership because caravans are not registered separately here in the UK as they are in France.
I'm not sure if new regulations affect motorhomers who tow vehicles on A frame dollies but to all intents and purposes UK touring caravanners will be unaffected. The document folder with copies of documents appears to me to be good advice.

EDIT:
A staff member from the Caravan Club has stated on their Club Together forum that any changes would only affect those who were moving permanently to France. Whatever entitlements you hold on your UK licence also apply to Fance.

 

[Gybe]

Itinerants may not be very popular but anyone who visits France at grape harvest time will see who it is actually picking. I don't like sharing sites with them but I believe municipal sites where largely set up to accommodate necessary itinerant labor and I cant see any local authorities in the areas concerned wanting to drive them away. Regarding the EU business does anyone seriously imagine those border controls are ever going to be reintroduced its cuckoo land thinking as is the idea that us leaving would make a smite of difference to the future of the Euro

Interestingly the world renowned finance wizard Greorge Soros (Hungarian immigrant) said a few days ago that the Euro will break up.

 

[Lutz]

Interestingly the world renowned finance wizard Greorge Soros (Hungarian immigrant) said a few days ago that the Euro will break up.

If circumstances turn for the worse I can imagine one or other country such as maybe Greece or Cyprus being excluded from the Euro, but in general there's no reason to suppose that it would break up completely. There's too much at stake. Most of the governments involved will try anything and everything to keep it alive. It's the backbone of political union which is the declared goal.

 

[otherclive]

Not all of Soros' predictions come true. Anyway there was the EU before the Euro came into being and many of the so called EU initiatives that some get worked up about have nothing to do with the Euro whatsoever so break up of the Euro however unlikely would not automatically mean no EU.

 

[otherclive]

Billionaire speculator George Soros has warned that the UK would be left out of the development of the European Union by not signing up to the euro.
But Mr Soros also warned that it was very dangerous because "historically sterling moves much more with the dollar than with the continental currencies."

In an interview with BBC Radio 4's World at One, he said there should be some link made between the euro and the dollar before sterling joins up.
Speculation worries
The leading financier warned that the pound would be vulnerable to international speculators if the UK did not join the single currency.
Mr Soros famously "beat the Bank of England" in 1992 when he laid siege to sterling, forcing the pound out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) and making a reported $1bn in a day.
Britain will not join the January launch party of economic and monetary union (EMU), but London hopes to adopt the euro soon after elections, that must be held by mid-2002, if the UK's economic cycle has by then become more closely attuned with Europe.

Is this the same George Soros who last year bought 2 billion Euros?

 

[JonnyG]

Mmmm can of worms, as i am pro europe for better or worse, let me say i agree with Gybe when he says the UK should leave.
I only hope those that believe it would be better for britain have plenty of years left to see what happens,and indeed plenty of years
to come up with excuses for whom is to blame when we get left behind by almost everyone! not really,theres always been safety in
numbers..

 

[Gybe]

"Thursday, February 07, 2013" Soros's views on the EU and euro when being interviewed
"The euro is bound to break up the European Union"
Asked what kind of change is needed, he said,
"Germany needs to realise that the policy it impose on the euroarea - the austerity programme - is counter-productive. It cannot actually succeed. At the moment they [the South] is being pushed - unwittingly, not with bad intentions, but the effect is that they are being pushed into a long lasting depression and that is what is happening to Europe. And it may last more than a decade, in fact it could become permanent, until the pain is so big that eventually there may be a rebellion, a rejection of the EU, and that would then be the destruction of the EU, which is a terribly heavy price to maintain to preserve the euro, which is meant to be just a servant of the EU."
On whether the euro will survive, he said,
"It could last quite a long time, the same way as the Soviet Union, which was a very bad arrangement, lasted for 70 years. However, I think that eventually, it is bound to break up the European Union. The longer it will take, and it may take generations, those will be lost in terms of political freedom and economic prosperity. The solution is to me a terrible tragedy for the EU. And it's happening to the most developed open society in the world. To me it's a terrible tragedy. It doesn't have villains, because I don't think that Germany is doing it with bad intentions but its happening out of a lack of understanding of very complex problems."
The Cypriot presidential run off is held this Sunday and the Euro is considered by most Cypriot's to have been a disaster for them and their economy. Cyprus sought financial help last year after its banks suffered huge losses from Greece's sovereign debt restructuring. The island, which has been shut out of international financial markets since May 2011, needs about 17 billion euros (14.6 billion pounds) in aid - roughly the same as its gross domestic product.
Whatever Soros thinks many Greeks and Cypriots are not keen on the German's at the best of times and with the EU and Euro issues and Soros's views that others rightly share the EU and Euro are on a stick wicket. Cyprus and Greece re likely to be the first stage of Soro's prediction. Will others in southern Europe sit back and wait their fate and the will of German, French and other countries politicians or will they bring down the Euro and EU?
If parts of the EU fall in to log term recession they may become places that we don't want to have holidays or feel safe in.

Caravanning businesses in general face changes as the UK economy and EU decisions hit earnings and new EU tax's hitting pensions isn't likely to help retirees who would spend pension money caravanning or buying caravanning mags to read

Somebody here said the other day that we pay enough for our motoring and paing for a photo card diving license was to much until the're are forced to have photo card license. EU and Euro cost us far far more than £20 and new rules, taxes and agreements are going to cost a whole lot more.

 

[Parksy]

8 ⁄ 10 for the brave but tenuous attempt to get back on topic Gybe

 

[otherclive]

I'm aware of his most recent statement but he was wrong in 2002 so why should we believe he is correct this time. Anyway his views are irrelevant to caravanning and I wouldn't want to revert to carrying six bags of different currencies on our next trip to Krakow.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Somebody here said the other day that we pay enough for our motoring and paing for a photo card diving license was to much until the're are forced to have photo card license. EU and Euro cost us far far more than £20 and new rules, taxes and agreements are going to cost a whole lot more.

that was me!! I am afraid it's the same with the passport that ran out 20years ago never renewed it didn't see the point theres plenty to see yet in this little island that will keep me going till touring in the vans no longer an option,
I never felt the need to do a 2000mile round trip on the wrong side of the road with a tin box on the back, worrying wether some gendarme or whatever they are called would keep us waiting while he decides if my green paper licence is valid in his little corner of europe.
what the french, germans, spanish, polish, or whatever do in their own "state" sorry I mean "country" is of no consern to me, what does consern me is when they try inforcing their rules on us, the main problem with the EU is everyone forgets history like it never happend, we are all friends in one big club, the trouble is not all the members are equal as those who started it have a gold card the rest of us just a paper one.
this may be a cinical view but is borne out by the reams of legistlation that effect our hobby and every day lives, had it not been for the EU would we have to have photo card licences, daylight running lights, and 48 tonne lorries on our poorly maintained roads, maybe we would!! who knows but what is clear is that we pay more in than get out, and land locked countries within europe have more fishing boats than us that just happen to be an island.
it's rather like the scottish equasion, independant of the UK but still part of the EU does that mean erecting a border crossing across the A74 at Gretna, if it does that will be another destination crossed of my list.