Bailey Olympus 525 (2010) - You guessed it - rotten corners!

[olympushasfallen]

Hello All - after some advice please.

I know this is a recurring topic, but our Bailey Olympus 525 (2010) Alutech caravan has the rotten corner problem.

From underneath, all four corners vary from softening-to-squidgy black plywood.... and internally there is evidence of damp tracking from the worst corners.

So I decided to have an investigative look underneath, and I want to understand what I'm looking at.

From the outside, the drip strip appears to have had the "Bailey recommended" 4 tubes of gunk applied, and the panel gap behind that sealant appears to be tight. So perhaps that's not the route for the water ingress. Our dealer has previously sealed the corner roof caps... this was done while a warranty repair was done for the lockers! (How I wish I'd got rid of it then!)

In the attached photo, you can see where I've cut away a triangle of soft black plywood.

Having researched other posts, and Alutech construction, I was not expecting to see another sheet of plywood behind the soggy outer black ply. I thought that the black ply was the outer layer of the flooring sandwich, so I was expecting to see the insulating foam behind the black ply?

I was also dismayed to see the bottom of the wall plates (?) decided to drop out with when I wiggled a screwdriver in it! I thought Alutech used a composite batten that was impervious to water rot?

Just trying to understand what I'm looking at.

I have issues at all 4 corners, and dealer has given me a rough estimate of 3k! But I suspect that figure will increase if he sees the extent of this damage. Not really an economical amount of money given the value of the van, so I'm trying to weigh my options. We've had the van for 5 years, and the dealer sold it to us. The corners have never looked great from underneath, but as first-time caravan owners I was ignorant of the potential problems. It was only when I noticed it internally that alarm bells started ringing. I really don't want to give the same dealer thousands of £s to resolve a problem he should've warned me about years ago during the annual servicing. My trust in him has been shaken a little!

As you can imagine, I'm not best pleased.

Thanks in advance for any construction insights, and potential routes to some kind of resolution.

---

Olympus Has Fallen (OHF)

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello OHF,

Welcome to the forum, I'm not sure we can bring a cheap solution to your problem, which as you say has been reported several times quite recently.

One slight glimmer of light though, you tell us you have owned the caravan for 5 years and you bought it from a dealer, which if you live in England or NI might give you an option under the Consumer Rights Act of 2015. Its a long shot, and it won't be easy, but the CRA give a window of up to 6 years to bring a claim against the seller if the goods fail for reasons of an inherent fault (that must have been present at the point of sale), poor workmanship or materials.

The difficulty will be firstly becasue it's more than 6 months since you purchased the caravan, the onus is on the customer to produce the evidence that the fault was inheren or present at the point of sale, and for that you would need to get an expert engineers report that shows that to be the case. It may be helped by the fact there are a number of other reports of similar failures.

But secondly, assuming the claim is either accepted by the seller, or it is awarded by the small claims court the remedy is the seller has the right to attempt ONE repair or to offer to buy the goods back or to offer some other usually financial compensation for loss of function. But the snag in the process is the CRA tries to be fair, and neither side in the action is expected to make any sort of gain, so if the dealer offers to buy back the caravan, they can counter claim for the use or "enjoyment" you have had from it over the period you have owned it. Realistically I would expect any purchase offer would have a reduced guide net value of roughly 1/6 for every year you have owned it, so in your case for 5 years of ownership you might receive 1/6th of what you paid for it.

There are various reliable websites (e.ge Which? and The Money Saving Expert) that devote space to covering consumer rights and the CRA with sample procedures. Even better if you are a member of Which?, you could take up their legal advice scheme which might help you.

 

[Raywood]

I agree with that coverage of the law but as you say it is up to you to prove that the caravan was faulty when you bought it and fie years down the line that is going to be very difficult and would need expert advice which might be expensive. At the same time there does look to have been a number of similar problems which would suggest this is a design fault or the result of continuous bad workmanship and if you can show that the expert advice might be avoided. You seem to have done your research and producing details of that might be enough for a small claims action.
Not sure where the depreciation bit comes from but after five years you would get a substantial deduction for your enjoyment of the caravan. I would look for a higher figure or the cost of repairs if you can get a quote for this. The cost of repairs would seem to be the minimum you could claim.
The case would need you to have bought from a dealer though so if it was a private sale I am afraid there is no comeback. The dealer would also have to still be in business which might not be the case in some instances.
If you used a credit card or HP you might still have a claim against the finance company although I am not as sure of time limits there as the claim would be under different legislation and I am not sure of the detail.
If you are a member of either f the clubs they have a legal helpline who could help but if not try Citizens Advice.
Given the age of the caravan and the likely cost of repair any action should be in the small claims court but you need to check out the dealers and any finance companies attitude to the claim before proceeding.

 

[Beachball]

Hi OHF welcome to the forum

 

[olympushasfallen]

Hello OHF,

Welcome to the forum, I'm not sure we can bring a cheap solution to your problem, which as you say has been reported several times quite recently.

One slight glimmer of light though, you tell us you have owned the caravan for 5 years and you bought it from a dealer, which if you live in England or NI might give you an option under the Consumer Rights Act of 2015. Its a long shot, and it won't be easy, but the CRA give a window of up to 6 years to bring a claim against the seller if the goods fail for reasons of an inherent fault (that must have been present at the point of sale), poor workmanship or materials.

The difficulty will be firstly becasue it's more than 6 months since you purchased the caravan, the onus is on the customer to produce the evidence that the fault was inheren or present at the point of sale, and for that you would need to get an expert engineers report that shows that to be the case. It may be helped by the fact there are a number of other reports of similar failures.

But secondly, assuming the claim is either accepted by the seller, or it is awarded by the small claims court the remedy is the seller has the right to attempt ONE repair or to offer to buy the goods back or to offer some other usually financial compensation for loss of function. But the snag in the process is the CRA tries to be fair, and neither side in the action is expected to make any sort of gain, so if the dealer offers to buy back the caravan, they can counter claim for the use or "enjoyment" you have had from it over the period you have owned it. Realistically I would expect any purchase offer would have a reduced guide net value of roughly 1/6 for every year you have owned it, so in your case for 5 years of ownership you might receive 1/6th of what you paid for it.

There are various reliable websites (e.ge Which? and The Money Saving Expert) that devote space to covering consumer rights and the CRA with sample procedures. Even better if you are a member of Which?, you could take up their legal advice scheme which might help you.

Thanks very much for your thoughts ProfJohnL.

 

[olympushasfallen]

I agree with that coverage of the law but as you say it is up to you to prove that the caravan was faulty when you bought it and fie years down the line that is going to be very difficult and would need expert advice which might be expensive. At the same time there does look to have been a number of similar problems which would suggest this is a design fault or the result of continuous bad workmanship and if you can show that the expert advice might be avoided. You seem to have done your research and producing details of that might be enough for a small claims action.
Not sure where the depreciation bit comes from but after five years you would get a substantial deduction for your enjoyment of the caravan. I would look for a higher figure or the cost of repairs if you can get a quote for this. The cost of repairs would seem to be the minimum you could claim.
The case would need you to have bought from a dealer though so if it was a private sale I am afraid there is no comeback. The dealer would also have to still be in business which might not be the case in some instances.
If you used a credit card or HP you might still have a claim against the finance company although I am not as sure of time limits there as the claim would be under different legislation and I am not sure of the detail.
If you are a member of either f the clubs they have a legal helpline who could help but if not try Citizens Advice.
Given the age of the caravan and the likely cost of repair any action should be in the small claims court but you need to check out the dealers and any finance companies attitude to the claim before proceeding.

Thanks very much for your thoughts Raywood.

 

[olympushasfallen]

Thanks to the above. Very insightful.

If anyone is able to offer an opinion on the constructional questions, I would appreciate it. I've certainly been surprised to see so much wood in these early Alutech wall battens and floors... ?

 

[otherclive]

It’s nit the problem with wood per se as most caravans over many years have used wood, and some still do. The wood will have been treated. The crucial question is what defects created a situation where the wood was subjected to damp over a prolonged period such that it rotted so badly. One question I would ask is that you used the same dealer for servicing and not once did they sound a warning bell. But are those areas included in the service schedule? Given they are a known weakness I would expect a competent service agent to check known weak areas.

 

[Buckman]

Hello OHF,

Welcome to the forum, I'm not sure we can bring a cheap solution to your problem, which as you say has been reported several times quite recently.

One slight glimmer of light though, you tell us you have owned the caravan for 5 years and you bought it from a dealer, which if you live in England or NI might give you an option under the Consumer Rights Act of 2015. Its a long shot, and it won't be easy, but the CRA give a window of up to 6 years to bring a claim against the seller if the goods fail for reasons of an inherent fault (that must have been present at the point of sale), poor workmanship or materials.

The difficulty will be firstly becasue it's more than 6 months since you purchased the caravan, the onus is on the customer to produce the evidence that the fault was inheren or present at the point of sale, and for that you would need to get an expert engineers report that shows that to be the case. It may be helped by the fact there are a number of other reports of similar failures.

But secondly, assuming the claim is either accepted by the seller, or it is awarded by the small claims court the remedy is the seller has the right to attempt ONE repair or to offer to buy the goods back or to offer some other usually financial compensation for loss of function. But the snag in the process is the CRA tries to be fair, and neither side in the action is expected to make any sort of gain, so if the dealer offers to buy back the caravan, they can counter claim for the use or "enjoyment" you have had from it over the period you have owned it. Realistically I would expect any purchase offer would have a reduced guide net value of roughly 1/6 for every year you have owned it, so in your case for 5 years of ownership you might receive 1/6th of what you paid for it.

There are various reliable websites (e.ge Which? and The Money Saving Expert) that devote space to covering consumer rights and the CRA with sample procedures. Even better if you are a member of Which?, you could take up their legal advice scheme which might help you.

Excellent advice regarding CRA 2015. My thoughts would turn towards it being an inherent fault which was there from day one. This would be covered by CRA 2015 for a period of 6 years. However would the OP be prepared to fight it all the way as the dealer will try and squirm out of it.
My best suggestion is that they contact Which Legal Services for professional advice as the OP is going to struggle on their own proving an inherent fault. The firts consulation is free and then it costs about £95 to join for the year and to get as much legal advice as necessary. We used them and took on a dealer and a finance house and won.
Which reminds me is there any finance on the caravan as that would help?

 

[Raywood]

I appreciate the points raised above but given the age of the caravan I think the claim will be fairly modest as it is either the purchase price less something for the use to date or the cost of repair. Frankly due to the time since the sale I suspect a court would go for the cost of repairs, or if less the current value in good condition, less any scrap value. This would probably not justify a solicitor if the claim is £3,000 and the small claims court is very claimant friendly and cheap.
Getting proof is the problem and while an expert report is desirable, if it can be shown that this is a common fault with this model then that should be proof enough but needs some research although this may be there from the initial post.
The time limit for raising proceedings is not in fact the six years from the purchase, but runs from the date on which the claimant could reasonably have been aware of the problem. If it was picked up at an annual service this should be that date, but if not it is difficult to be sure.
Given the time that has elapsed since the purchase this is stretching the use of the act to the limit but it is worth a try and at worst might get a compromise settlement.
In the current market I would have thought a 2010 model would be worth well over £3,000 and a quick look at Glossop caravans web site shows 2010 caravans at about £12,000 or more. At that rate the caravan can be repaired economically, although the value less something for use might take the damages level back down to about £5,000 in my view.
I used Glossop more because they had enough 2010 models to get an idea of value than anything else.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Regards the request for mechanical information about the caravan's construction. I can't tell you much about it. The Alutec was headlined as removing wood from the walls so that water ingress would not be so serious - interesting that they didn't make any claims about the new construction system preventing water ingress, only that when it happens it should be less serious!

You would be best to get a mobile caravan engineer to view the caravan and give his(or hers) professional opinion about the best course for repairs.

I have ranted more times than I care to remember about caravan construction techniques. The really annoying thing is - some caravans don't leak, but the very next one off the production line might leak like a sieve. It all down to inconsistent production techniques and standards, and insufficient management planning for quality assurance.

If they can make one caravan thats leak free, why can't they do the same for ALL their caravan's?, And I'm pointing the finger at all caravan manufacturers. They have had close to 100 years to get it right. Instead all caravanners pay a premium of close to 10% on the purchase price to fund the manufacturers costs of putting their own faults right.

Proper care taken during construction could eliminate , many of the faults with their products, ultimately reducing construction costs and slashing warranty costs. I'm sure they could even reduce teh sale prices and still make a bigger profit. and have happier customers.

Consumers should be raging about it.

Sorry, I know this does not help you .

 

[Thingy]

To try to answer the original question "what am I looking at?" its difficult to say as the photograph doesnt show the depth of the triangle you have cut away. Could it be just the very outer layer of the ply that has become delaminated from the next layer in. A guide as to floor construction is in this picture, which as far as I know is the contruction used by Bailey.

 

[Jcloughie]

It also needs to be considered that the floor construction can change from the main van which is insulated, to the front locker. When I had a Unicorn 2011, the front side lockers, which very many had trouble with were very different to others. The floor lining was not loose, but well and truly bonded in. Looked like pitch. I could not shift it. But unusually, mine was dry. I was the second owner, it was only 6 months old and the original owner said he had done nothing.

John

 

[Buckman]

I

I appreciate the points raised above but given the age of the caravan I think the claim will be fairly modest as it is either the purchase price less something for the use to date or the cost of repair. Frankly due to the time since the sale I suspect a court would go for the cost of repairs, or if less the current value in good condition, less any scrap value. This would probably not justify a solicitor if the claim is £3,000 and the small claims court is very claimant friendly and cheap.
Getting proof is the problem and while an expert report is desirable, if it can be shown that this is a common fault with this model then that should be proof enough but needs some research although this may be there from the initial post.
The time limit for raising proceedings is not in fact the six years from the purchase, but runs from the date on which the claimant could reasonably have been aware of the problem. If it was picked up at an annual service this should be that date, but if not it is difficult to be sure.
Given the time that has elapsed since the purchase this is stretching the use of the act to the limit but it is worth a try and at worst might get a compromise settlement.
In the current market I would have thought a 2010 model would be worth well over £3,000 and a quick look at Glossop caravans web site shows 2010 caravans at about £12,000 or more. At that rate the caravan can be repaired economically, although the value less something for use might take the damages level back down to about £5,000 in my view.
I used Glossop more because they had enough 2010 models to get an idea of value than anything else.

If you use Which Legal Services you do not need a solicitor. Also it does not matter whether it is new or second hand as the CRA 2015 still applies. The time limit is still 6 years.
Damp is generally an inherent fault due to a manufacturing issue and there from day one. Your best bet is to get some legal advice first from WSL and then approach the dealer and perhaps you can negotiate a price. Can I also suggest that you Google Glossop caravans for reviews.

 

[otherclive]

The OP could do what a previous OP did and not only talk to the dealer about the issue and possible use of CRA 2015, but show them the thread. In that case the dealer resolved the problem very rapidly to the customers satisfaction.

 

[Raywood]

Possibly there is enough advice on here to establish the way forward and what we would like to hear is how the matter now moves forward.