Battery Passport 2027

[otherclive]

A new requirement fir EVs being introduced in 2027 is a battery passport that details the materials used in a cars battery, the manufacturing processes and impact on the environment including design for recycling. Volvo are the first maker to produce a passport for one of their new models. The article also has a link to Ecobat a British company specialising in battery recycling.

New EV battery passport reveals environmental impact of electric cars | Auto Express

Battery passports will become a legal requirement on all EVs in 2027, providing a breakdown of what impact manufacturing the car has had on the environment

www.autoexpress.co.uk

 

[ProfJohnL]

I do hope they do the same for ICE vehicles and the fuel they use.

 

[Buckman]

Another stupid requirement and the again the taxpayer or consumer bears the cost!

 

[Gozza2]

It's not as bad as it sounds - any responsible company does environmental impact assessments on their work anyway. It looks like these passports are just going to be a formalised presentation of the information they already have.

And if they don't have the information, you have to ask why...

 

[Buckman]

It's not as bad as it sounds - any responsible company does environmental impact assessments on their work anyway. It looks like these passports are just going to be a formalised presentation of the information they already have.

And if they don't have the information, you have to ask why...

Does thus mean that in future we now have to have passports for lithium batteries in the caravan, the cordless drill, the lawnmower etc? Most manufacturers of batteries for EVs will be found to have many shortcomings on the source of the components similar to "blood diamonds".

 

[otherclive]

Another stupid requirement and the again the taxpayer or consumer bears the cost!

At least it should start to address the concerns echoed by those who tell us that mining battery materials is akin to slave labour with no environmental controls.
There’s stewardship schemes for timber and fish that are well established albeit with reports varying on their effectiveness so why not batteries?

 

[Buckman]

At least it should start to address the concerns echoed by those who tell s that mining battery materials is akin to slave labour with no environmental controls.
There’s stewardship schemes for timber and fish that are well established albeit with reports varying on their effectiveness so why not batteries?

Oh dear now we will need passports for our Duracells and toilet paper!

 

[Gozza2]

Does thus mean that in future we now have to have passports for lithium batteries in the caravan, the cordless drill, the lawnmower etc? Most manufacturers of batteries for EVs will be found to have many shortcomings on the source of the components similar to "blood diamonds".

Unlikely - as we've seen in this forum and many others, one of the main arguments being quoted against the use of EVs is the sustainability of the battery manufacture - I make no comment on the controversy one way or the other, just acknowledging that it exists.

This move will either reassure people (removing one of the objections some people have to getting an EV), or force any manufacturers who ARE using unethical practices to clean up their act.. Either way it'll be good for the future of EV usage.

AFAIK no similar controversy exists for other types of battery, so no need to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[Buckman]

Can I mention VW and the diesel scandal? We all know that manufacturers constantly lie to us and twist figures to their own agenda. However even with a stupid piece of paper called a passport, that is probably not going to increase sales, but it will be another cost to the consumer and another nail in the coffin.

 

[RogerL]

Can I mention VW and the diesel scandal? We all know that manufacturers constantly lie to us and twist figures to their own agenda. However even with a stupid piece of paper called a passport, that is probably not going to increase sales, but it will be another cost to the consumer and another nail in the coffin.

Don't just pick on VW, other manufacturers were just as bad - including Mercedes-Benz, Opel/Vauxhall and several others.

 

[otherclive]

Can I mention VW and the diesel scandal? We all know that manufacturers constantly lie to us and twist figures to their own agenda. However even with a stupid piece of paper called a passport, that is probably not going to increase sales, but it will be another cost to the consumer and another nail in the coffin.

With the activities of environmental groups and investigative journalists lies generally get found out and the total financial, management and reputational cost ramifications to companies is probably greater than doing it correctly. I wonder where VWs costs for Dieselgate have landed? The passport is unlikely to be an issue with sales as under the 2027 EU regulations all companies will have to comply so it evens out across manufacturers.

I cannot help but wonder why EV batteries get criticised on environmental grounds yet where do users think the lithium in their Lithium batteries for caravans, devices, mowers etc come from? is there a good source of lithium specifically for non EV usage?

 

[Gozza2]

I cannot help but wonder why EV batteries get criticised on environmental grounds yet where do users think the lithium in their Lithium batteries for caravans, devices, mowers etc come from? is there a good source of lithium specifically for non EV usage?

I think it's because there's a perception that with the introduction of EVs there's been a sudden increase in the worldwide demand for lithium...potentially encouraging less scrupulous producers to take short cuts in the ethical side of extraction. As in my previous post, not commenting on that either way, just acknowledging that it's a point of view that some people hold.

Also of course, the battery in my next door neighbour's EV contains quite a lot more lithium that the battery in my Black and Decker!

 

[otherclive]

I think it's because there's a perception that with the introduction of EVs there's been a sudden increase in the worldwide demand for lithium...potentially encouraging less scrupulous producers to take short cuts in the ethical side of extraction. As in my previous post, not commenting on that either way, just acknowledging that it's a point of view that some people hold.

Also of course, the battery in my next door neighbour's EV contains quite a lot more lithium that the battery in my Black and Decker!

I understand your reasoning and agree, but the amount of lithium mined for non EV usage must be significant and goes back years, but its source and production processes have never really been questioned. For cars it's all part of the great debate about climate change, environmental aspects and overall life cycle output of carbon dioxide.

 

[Tobes]

I understand your reasoning and agree, but the amount of lithium mined for non EV usage must be significant and goes back years, but its source and production processes have never really been questioned. For cars it's all part of the great debate about climate change, environmental aspects and overall life cycle output of carbon dioxide.

Absolutely this. The emergence of BEV has given visibility to the source of materials to make the batteries in question. The fossil fuel industry has carefully and deliberately pushed the question of where lithium, cobalt and indeed electricity all come from to drive a sense of dirtiness into the EV story, prolonging the use of (and hence sale of and profit from) fossil fuel. At the same time there is no examination of where oil come from and, and how much is used.

Bringing in the battery passport and associated health measurement will hopefully restore some sort of perspective on the amount of Lithium (and other materials) used.

What gets my goat is the cries of how much damage is done in extracting the vast amounts of lithium needed to make EV batteries.
In 2023, total global Lithium production was 180,000 tonnes according to Statista.
Yet total global oil production in 2023 amounted to 81,804,000 barrels per day. That's about 10,760,000 tonnes of oil _per day_ or just under 4 Billion tonnes per year.
180,000 tonnes vs 4,000,000,000 tonnes.

Statista report this slightly differently as 4.39 Billion tonnes, in 2022.

And _all_ of the lithium is recyclable. None of the oil used as fuel is.

 

[Buckman]

And _all_ of the lithium is recyclable. None of the oil used as fuel is.

Oil can be recycled!

 

[Tobes]

Oil can be recycled!

Show me 1 litre of recycled burned diesel and you will be a millionaire.

 

[Buckman]

Show me 1 litre of recycled burned diesel and you will be a millionaire.

They recycled used oil at a place near us. Oil come sin many different forms. You can even use old used cooking oil in older diesels and all you need to do is filter out the particles. What is the cost of recycling an old lithium battery?

 

[otherclive]

They recycled used oil at a place near us. Oil come sin many different forms. You can even use old used cooking oil in older diesels and all you need to do is filter out the particles. What is the cost of recycling an old lithium battery?

Cooking oil isn’t generally included in the debate wrt fossil fuel extraction as its vegetable derived. If a ICE passport were to be developed for use of fossil fuels there would be significant difficulty in getting widespread acceptance of some oil production areas with their gross environmental contamination associated with extraction. Even squeaky clean Canada would have difficulty with their tar sands extraction.

 

[Tobes]

They recycled used oil at a place near us. Oil come sin many different forms. You can even use old used cooking oil in older diesels and all you need to do is filter out the particles. What is the cost of recycling an old lithium battery?

I will point you to my original message.

"None of the oil used as fuel is."

Cooking oil, last time I checked, was not extracted from the North Sea.

Lubrication oil is not burnt, until it's it burned - then it becomes unrecyclable.

As to the cost of recycling a lithium battery, as long as it's lower cost to recover the mineral components that it is to mine new, then its viable. The challenge with lithium battery recycling right now is there are not enough to be worth while at the scale needed by many battery manufactures. That said, the numbers are slowing increasing, and recycling plants are being established.

 

[Buckman]

Either way the passport has to rate as one of the most stupid ideas ever! Obviously some bureaucrat with nothing to do except make new proclamations to keep their over paid job. LOL!

 

[Tobes]

Personally I welcome the idea. If there is a document that comes with the car that allows me to make an informed decision on buying it based on the environmental impact of the manufacture of the battery (and indeed the rest of the car), the source of material used and CO2 generated in doing so it would add transparency to the market and give me buying choices.

Just because the fossil industry has stayed opaque and behind a closed door for so long, does not mean it should stay that way.

@ProfJohnL - I totally agree - a passport should be issued for ICE cars too, and ideally for the fuel consumed at the pump.
Every litre of petrol bought has a (relatively) fixed CO2 content when burned in a car (about 2.3kg, and about 2.7kg for diesel). If we knew the CO2 cost to get it from the well to the pump and into the car, we could make a choice about how much we emit.

 

[otherclive]

I suspect that the views on lithium batteries for electric cars will become history when solid state batteries start to appear. The major car makers have been working with specialist companies to develop SSB for a number of years and Toyota are looking at limited introductions in 2-3 years, with Nissan senior executives intimating that a new model ( possibly a Leaf ) could use SSB in 2017. Interesting developments ahead in prime mover and powertrain technology.

 

[borderbilly]

I read Toyota are slowing down on the EV side as they have developed some new better cleaner petrol engine.

 

[otherclive]

I read Toyota are slowing down on the EV side as they have developed some new better cleaner petrol engine.

Yes Toyota are in partnership with Mazda and Subaru to develop engine technolgy for future vehicles, including hydrogen as a fuel. But they are still progressing with electrical technolgy vehicles. Also Renault and Geely have just formed a new company (50/50) to develop new engine developments and other power train solutions including electric. I think these moves reflect the fact that globally there are areas where full electric or even hybrid electric are not yet practicable options. We tend to sometimes take a western centric view and don’t recognise constraints in other areas of the world.

https://media.renaultgroup.com/renault-group-and-geely-announce-the-creation-of-leading-powertrain-technology-company-horse-powertrain-limited/

Subaru, Toyota, and Mazda Commit to New Engine Development for the Electrification Era, Toward Carbon Neutrality | Corporate | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Subaru Corporation (Subaru), Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota), and Mazda Motor Corporation (Mazda) have each committed to developing new engines tailored to electrification and the pursuit of carbon neutrality. With these engines, each of the three companies will aim to optimize integration...

global.toyota

 

[Hutch]

I read Toyota are slowing down on the EV side as they have developed some new better cleaner petrol engine.

Toyota revealed, they have developed an Ammonia powered engine, not a petrol, although it can run on Biofuel and Hydrogen.