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British Energy Market in dire need of a major national rethink

Mar 14, 2005
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It is my opinion that the British Energy Market is in dire need of a major national rethink. I strongly believe the privatisation of our vital energy and infrastructure services especially Gas, Electricity, Water and Coal, has not had the intended long term benefits that were implied when the essential services were sold off in the twentieth century

The fragmentation of the services has led to substantive dividends for the companies share holders, which can only have been generated by increasing prices to customers over and above that needed to maintain and develop the services. One company reckons its tax burden on profits represents an annual average cost of £138 per household! That means the actual cost to each household to fund taxation and shareholder dividends must be more more like £250 to £300. Whilst this may be the largest indicated value for one company, similar processes must apply to all these privatised service providers, so the excess we are all paying for the privilege of privatised essential services is likely to be close to an average £750 per household per year - for which we see nothing at all.

One of the biggest selling points that was given during the big sell off's was that privatisation would bring competition which would drive prices down, and keep them low. Well yes to some extent that did happen. Most of the operators achieved this by making economies elsewhere in their organisations, for example by selling off installation and maintenance divisions. But the down side is that we now have a multitude of smaller companies who individually are not big enough to be able to negotiate the lowest raw material costs, or they have reduced their bulk purchase volumes rendering them more exposed to short term price changes in raw materials.

The knock on effect is that as a nation we do not hold any significant reserves, and that customers are subject to more frequent price changes, and price differentials between suppliers can be quite marked.

Companies try to mask their price differentials by offering overly complex deals, which prevents most users form actually making fair comparisons between offers and getting at what real value they are getting for their money. We also know that some of the companies have employed unfair selling tactics, making verbal claims which are not substantiated when the deal is closed. This is another common occurrence when too many providers are fighting over the same customers. We have created a whole new industry - 'Switching' An economist I know has estimated the cost of running all these switching services (not just energy suppliers, but telecom and insurance etc) could easily be in excess £1B which is paid for by us. Do we need it?

Comments welcomed
 
Aug 24, 2012
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How about these headlines last week - "Blackout Britain: EU environmental directive puts millions at risk of power cuts
ONE million homes narrowly escaped a power cut last month as bitterly cold weather placed a massive strain on Britain’s creaking electricity network"
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/379845/Blackout-Britain-EU-environmental-directive-puts-millions-at-risk-of-power-cuts

It's quite simple really, if you have a load of companies all fighting for the same business and they all employ a bunch of people to dream up pricing and sales gags the customers ends up paying more for that. Quite frankly I for one don't want to be held up every time I go in M&S whilst two chumps try and sell me a Power deal.

I want to know that my UK government's are ensuring that I get the best price for my essential water, gas and leccy and that some French directors aren't getting rich off of me. But those days are gone it seems. We also want to know that when we flip a switch or turn a knob we'll get light or heat and not that some chumps Brussels directives have prevented that.
 
Aug 4, 2004
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It must be remembered that suppliers are retailers and in it for profit for shareholders. None of their profits are ploughed back into the energy infrastructure. Between the distribution company and the consumer there are several organisations with each taking a cut. Remove some of these and costs are almost halved.
Are people aware that the smaller suppliers have to buy from one of the big six which makes the market a total farce? The big six did not have to work for their customers like smaller suppliers. When they want to squeeze a smaller supplier out of the market, they increase the price to the smaller supplier whilst dropping theirs!
 
Oct 30, 2009
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privatisation was one of Thatchers babies designed as a get rich quick scheme, no more no less, as and such was doomed to fail, it was obvious from the outset that assest stripping was the order of the day and that all the small companies would eventually be bought out by multinational companies (some government sponsored) from overseas, the shareholders who bought into this in the early days could make a killing as the share price increased when the they were floated on the exchange,and that in the end the consumer would be held to ransom, 30 years on the babies have grown up ,well spotted John,
 
Aug 11, 2010
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Gybe said:
How about these headlines last week - "Blackout Britain: EU environmental directive puts millions at risk of power cuts
ONE million homes narrowly escaped a power cut last month as bitterly cold weather placed a massive strain on Britain’s creaking electricity network"
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/379845/Blackout-Britain-EU-environmental-directive-puts-millions-at-risk-of-power-cuts

It's quite simple really, if you have a load of companies all fighting for the same business and they all employ a bunch of people to dream up pricing and sales gags the customers ends up paying more for that. Quite frankly I for one don't want to be held up every time I go in M&S whilst two chumps try and sell me a Power deal.

I want to know that my UK government's are ensuring that I get the best price for my essential water, gas and leccy and that some French directors aren't getting rich off of me. But those days are gone it seems. We also want to know that when we flip a switch or turn a knob we'll get light or heat and not that some chumps Brussels directives have prevented that.
ha ha ha. I was a mere yuff when maggie sold everything and anything, but even as a yuff i could not understand how it was anything but a short term solution with dire effects long term."housing shortages" well she gave away council houses and i mean gave them away and really took the incentive away from councils to reinvest in the numbers needed . "untilities" If Something is past on to the private sector then how is it not obvious to even a dim wit that the service or services will want to make as much money as they can get away with?Amazingly or is it strange that overseas companies end up buying them?maybe british companies only liked making short term profits and sell on when re investment is needed! but dont worry there is an upside that is if your pension is a decent one then a decent chuck would have come from your utiliety bills...just hope those old enough to have voted in those great days of maggies hand outs arent now the ones being critical...as i was brought up to "you make your bed now lie in it"
 
Aug 24, 2012
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Labour and the socialist types are just as guilty re the selling off and privatisation. Looking at the state of the UK economy today if I'd have voted for Tony B'liar and the Gormless Brown I'd be jumping off the nearest cliff today.
Apart from enything else B'liar and Gormless engineered the current mess, sell outs to Europe, sell off of our Gold on the cheap and the pension raids that lead many short of money for the inflated power prices.
Very convenient for Labour to have someone else castrate and tame the unions fiasco of the past
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Aug 11, 2010
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Gybe said:
Labour and the socialist types are just as guilty re the selling off and privatisation. Looking at the state of the UK economy today if I'd have voted for Tony B'liar and the Gormless Brown I'd be jumping off the nearest cliff today.
Apart from enything else B'liar and Gormless engineered the current mess, sell outs to Europe, sell off of our Gold on the cheap and the pension raids that lead many short of money for the inflated power prices.
Very convenient for Labour to have someone else castrate and tame the unions fiasco of the past
smiley-smile.gif
Cannot recal which time i voted lib dem or labour, but it matters not i live in a tory strong hold so my vote didnt matter as the tories always hold this seat. So i can smuggly sleep at night knowing my vote didnt count toward anything, but then thats the problem with first past the post 40% of the voters can lay claim to be a government,yet 60% whoever one votes for counts for squat.and it seems thats the way the majority have been brought up to like it. Do agree though that labour sold the gold off cheap,but thats only because the tories somehow thought they would win again in 97,so left it ready for when they came back in...
"Mess" what mess? sorry just joking i agree blair and brown should have done something to clear up the mess that clearly had its roots from 80s thatchism,just like we are now paying for privatisation we are also paying for greedy capitalism.It just cannot be helped.
 
Aug 24, 2012
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Back in the late 60's and 70's I had friends who laughed at my family background and the struggles and hard work my parents had gone through with finances. Those friends were sons of miners and car factory workers,
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One day I'll hear another bleeding heart tale of 'poor' miners and car workers and kill somebody.
The bottom line is that no business could run well whilst management were dealing with the infighting,battles and blackmailing re the variety of unions they had to deal with.
This country has failed by not having a balance with good worker conditions and fair pay and good managerial and corporate behaviour and controls. The biggest growth in the UK has been with political jobs and the pay and perks, Socialist politicians have been quick with jumping into consultancy and director roles with banking and big business. That's quiate amazing in itself when they have failed so badly with the finances and running of GB Limited.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I did not start this thread to start a political battle. I never mentioned any party. So please do not start throwing insults or other non etiquete points - stick to the topic.
 
Aug 4, 2004
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Prof John L said:
I did not start this thread to start a political battle. I never mentioned any party. So please do not start throwing insults or other non etiquete points - stick to the topic.

I was more interested in a debate of energy suppliers, but it seems people prefer to ignore the fact that they are being ripped off and are happy to pay whatever a supplier charges them. Probably too lazy to use a comparison site to find a cheaper and better deal. Changing last year in November saved us about £200 per annum! We change suppliers at least once every 2 years looking for better deals.
 
May 7, 2012
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We run a comparison every time our fixed rate contract is up for renewal. We use the fixed rate as this has protected us against subsequent rises each time. The system is so complex that it is impossible for an individual to compare rates with different tarrifs for every area, several tarrifs for each supplier and you just have to hope the comparison sites are correct as according to our results the difference between the best and worst for us could be some £200.
 

Parksy

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Nov 12, 2009
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Prof John L said:
I did not start this thread to start a political battle. I never mentioned any party. So please do not start throwing insults or other non etiquete points - stick to the topic.

We might have guessed that this would descend into political mud slinging which will now cease thank you gentlemen.

I gave up long distance lorry driving in the late 1980s when I managed to get a job with the local electricity board, Midlands Electricty Board. It was a great job, home every night with good pay and working conditions, and I imagined that I was set for the rest of my life.
The MEB had various branches beside the supply of electricity from the CEGB (Central Electricity Generating Board), and most of these other interests made a profit, provided good customer service and also provided a lot of local employment.
The company as a whole was awash with money, we lost count of the times that office refurbishment costing millions was carried out, especially at Fat Cat Central, the head office in Halesowen where the CEO had a luxury flat for if a meeting went on a bit longer than anticipated, and a plush office suite that was fit for an emperor. The money either had to be spent or handed over to the Treasury so I'll leave everyone to guess which path was followed.
It's true that privatisation cut some of the expenses, but the cuts were really at the expense of the workers not the bosses who awarded themselves astronomical salaries and helped themselves to share packages which made sure that they were very wealthy indeed.
Meanwhile the supporting branches of the business were sold off, mainly to sections of management who assett stripped them completely to the point where they failed and ceased trading costing some employees who had paid into the MEB pension scheme since they left school their futures because the pension schemes were transferred and plundered along with everything else. Needless to say that agency workers were used to oust the old timers and those like me who had joined later but were committed to the company and bought in to the excellent service and skill sets that had existed before. We all lost our jobs in the end but it was a painful process watching the good and honest reputation that had been built being thrown into the gutter while this was happening.
The main beneficiaries of the big sell off were major shareholders, most of them foreign, apart from the fat cat bosses who gave themselves what amounted to winning national lottery tickets.
I find it difficult to see any real benefits for customers who now face a bewildering array of tarriffs to the point where it is very easy for some of these multitude of suppliers to cheat and make false claims about prices.
Energy customers have to rely on consumer rights websites such as Martins Money Saving Expert to point out the best plans to follow but even then confusion often reigns supreme.
Looming over the horizon is the UK loss of capacity to generate electricity because of power station decommissioning to meet EU green targets which are unrealistic. MP's hold directorships on or are paid to lobby on behalf of green energy companies, quelle surprise!
These green targets will result in us as a state handing our total potential industrial capacity to other countries unless governments of whatever shade or ideology start to consider properly the effect that these green policies, which as far as I can tell there is no real mandate for, are going to have on our society as a whole.
 
Aug 24, 2012
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Our Politicians of all persuasions are repsonsible for the current fiasco of fighting between suppliers and ultimately they have the power to stamp on the suppliers or even re nationalise them.
We can't be bothered with changing suppliers and have seen chaos with friends and families billing when they've changed suppliers. Instead of doing that we have re-modelled our present home and we use an alternative heating system that has cut out over 90% of our gas bill and we use solar power.
 
Aug 4, 2004
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Gybe said:
Our Politicians of all persuasions are repsonsible for the current fiasco of fighting between suppliers and ultimately they have the power to stamp on the suppliers or even re nationalise them.
We can't be bothered with changing suppliers and have seen chaos with friends and families billing when they've changed suppliers. Instead of doing that we have re-modelled our present home and we use an alternative heating system that has cut out over 90% of our gas bill and we use solar power.
I cannot understand why people cannot work out theri own consumption as it is dead easy especially with you have MS Excel worksheet. We check our consumption on a regular basis so know exactly what our bill is going to be at the end of a quarter. We have never had a billing issue when changing suppliers and we must have changed supplier ten or more times in the past couple of years.
 
Aug 24, 2012
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We could easily work out what we use power wise. But we chose super insulation and a combination of ground source, solar and wood burning for heating and hot water. We still have a gas boiler within the system but it gets minimal use, it's just been left as an emergency back up as it was nearly new when we bought the house and the heating engineer just left it connected within the system.
Wood costs us nothing, so why pay for gas or electric
smiley-smile.gif
and sunlight is also free.
 
Aug 4, 2004
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Gybe said:
We could easily work out what we use power wise. But we chose super insulation and a combination of ground source, solar and wood burning for heating and hot water. We still have a gas boiler within the system but it gets minimal use, it's just been left as an emergency back up as it was nearly new when we bought the house and the heating engineer just left it connected within the system.
Wood costs us nothing, so why pay for gas or electric
smiley-smile.gif
and sunlight is also free.

We have air source heating and now wish that we still had storage heaters as they were a lot cheaper to run. During December our bill shot up to £150 usage with temp set to 22C. We dropped the temperature down to 20C and have it only running at E10 times. In between we use a gas heater in the lounge as cannot afford montly bills of £150 for 4 months. Managed to get it down to under £90 a month.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Surfer said:
I cannot understand why people cannot work out theri own consumption as it is dead easy especially with you have MS Excel worksheet. We check our consumption on a regular basis so know exactly what our bill is going to be at the end of a quarter. We have never had a billing issue when changing suppliers and we must have changed supplier ten or more times in the past couple of years.

Hello Surfer,
Its not the consumption thats at the point of my OT, But you do allude to one of the other points I do make, and that is the variety of supply, and the range of different tarrifs, which have caused you to consider changing so often. That really should not be necessary, and why should you have to work so hard keeping tabs on consumption, when there is a meter in your home doing just that anyway. You shoudl be able to rely on your supplier offering you the most ecconomic or fair tarrif automatically, and why do we have so many varied tarrifs? They dont have different powerstaions supplying your house depending on what tarrif you use, it all comes from the same grid, and no one can say which unit of electricity you receive comes from which power station.
I can understand day and night rates due to changes in general demand, but multiple rates for the same time of day for domestic users has no technical logic what so ever.
 
Aug 4, 2004
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Prof John L said:
Surfer said:
I cannot understand why people cannot work out theri own consumption as it is dead easy especially with you have MS Excel worksheet. We check our consumption on a regular basis so know exactly what our bill is going to be at the end of a quarter. We have never had a billing issue when changing suppliers and we must have changed supplier ten or more times in the past couple of years.

Hello Surfer,
Its not the consumption thats at the point of my OT, But you do allude to one of the other points I do make, and that is the variety of supply, and the range of different tarrifs, which have caused you to consider changing so often. That really should not be necessary, and why should you have to work so hard keeping tabs on consumption, when there is a meter in your home doing just that anyway. You shoudl be able to rely on your supplier offering you the most ecconomic or fair tarrif automatically, and why do we have so many varied tarrifs? They dont have different powerstaions supplying your house depending on what tarrif you use, it all comes from the same grid, and no one can say which unit of electricity you receive comes from which power station.
I can understand day and night rates due to changes in general demand, but multiple rates for the same time of day for domestic users has no technical logic what so ever.
In the not too distant future we will all have SMART meters that you can use to monitor consumption. These will make even more people redundant. However if you have to have heating and do the washing, they are not going to make a hell of a lot of difference to the working people. Pensioners and people on low income will be the ones that will be monitoring them.
I agree about the many confusing rates, but if you check the Economy rates some can be more expensive than a standard rate because people are unable to take advantage of the cheaper power between 0000 - 0800hours. We use E10 which gives us 0000-0500 hours, then 1300-1600 hours and again 2000- 2200hours.
Some suppliers will have a daily standing charge of 45p and price per unit 10p and others will be 25p daily SC with price per unit 15p. Most suppliers use the same the same middle men that are paid for by the standing charge, i.e. Meter operator, Data Collector and Data Aggregator. Part of the standing charge is for the distribution company. The distribution company is responsible for the wiring up to the meter including earthing. After the meter it is the supplier's responsibility and if any issues they will get the MOP to investigate.

I had to laugh at BGAS stating their profits were up because people used more gas. Can we assume that they got the gas for free which is why their profits increased? BGAS try and get the impression that they are investing in the pwoer grid, but that is a blatant lie. Do they think we are all stupid?
 

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