Carver Cascade 2. No Water from hot tap & pump on

[Ryan-hiace]

Hi everyone, I'm a complete newbie to motorhomes, and my plumbing skill could use a little help too. I have a camper van with a Carver Cascade 2 (at least that what the little brown switch next to it says). It's also has a submersible water pump that goes in the water tank, I don't know if it's made by whale, but looks similar.

Anyway, to the problem details. The pump stays on continuously when I turn on the pump. If I adjust the pressure by tuning the little plastic valve which I believe is the pump pressure valve, I can get it to pulse about once a second, but I know that's not right either, as it continues to pulse as long as the pump switch is on. As far as I can tell there's no wiring coming from the sink or the shower taps, that means there's no electric switches in the tap right?

Possibly related, and another issue I have: I can't get any water from the hot tap. When I turn on the cold tap, the pumps currently continuous noise changes tone and cold water comes out fine from the cold tap. When I turn on the hot tap, the pump doesn't change tone, and no water comes out, nothing happens.

I checked the heater, The little brown control switch has a green light on it. I don't know if it's on or off, as no matter where the switch is the green light stays on, and I tried to get hot water in both postions. I tried to press the reset button on the front of the heater itself, but it appears to be already depressed. Well, it's not flat against the suface, but when I tried to press it, it didn't move. Pulling it out simply pulls out slack on the button, but doesn't actually pull anything out. I don't know whether this is how the button is supposed to be, and I'm being weak and not pressing it hard enough, or whether it's already been pressed.

I've tried various combinations of turning the hot tap on and off, leaving it on for a a minute or two to see if it just needed time. I have no idea how to stop my pump from being on continuously, or how to get hot (or any water) from the hot tap! Any ideas? Please bear in mind not only am I a newbie at all this, but the van is new too so I don't know it very well and it didn't come with any manuals in regards to the water and heating system.

Here's the water heater:

I've put a bunch of other potentially helpful images in same place as this one, you can see them all at http://imgur.com/a/znD8G, I didn't want to fill this post with images. They're all labelled, but if you would prefer me to post them inline, let me know.

EDIT: I forgot to say, I have working gas, the carver gas heater (on the opposite side of the van to the water tank) works fine.
Thanks a lot for any help and advice you can give!

 

[Ryan-hiace]

I've just noticed a section in the water heater manual that says "ensure that the system is turned on and that the system is filled with water, i.e water flows from the hot taps" - I'm guessing this might be the problem then, as I'm getting no water from the hot taps...

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ryan,

Thank you for the comprehensive post about your system problems.

You have what is called a pressurised water system, which is principally controlled by the pressure switch you have adjusted. When it works correctly the pump will run until it increases the water pressure in the pipe work, when the pressure switch will turn the pump off. When you open a tap, the pressure is released, and the switch detects this and starts the pump.

The cold water pump, serves both the cold and the hot systems, so as you do get cold water, and the fact the pressure switch also is cycling shows the pump is able to generate pressure and flow and is thus working.

The Carver Cascade hot water heater is a storage device and it holds 9 litres of water. Look up
"Arcsystems.biz" where you find downloadable copies of the instruction manual.

Once filled it remains full, and to get hot water out you have to push more cold water in. This will normally happen automatically when you open a hot tap.

Now the symptoms you describe where the pump is cycling even with the taps off means there is a leak somewhere, as the pressure isn't being maintained, when the pump stops. If you haven't found an obvious leak, it could be the non return valve in the pressure switch is not closing properly. If this happens the pressurised waster can leak back to storage tank - hence no obvious signs of a leak.

But you also have another problem as it seems the water heater is not filling. This can also be a problem with a non return valve which is fitted to the water inlet to the heater being jammed.

Both these faults could be the result of water being left inside the water system when its been in storage and freezing. The action of ice forming can damage non return valves, and other components. In some cases the valves can be stripped down, cleaned and reassembled, but often they need to be replaced.

Hope this helps

 

[Ryan-hiace]

Hi there, I figured the best way round my inexperience with everything was just to be as detailed as possible, sorry for the essay!

Thank you so much for your reply! Since posting this, I had done some more reading, and had also come to the conclusion that the hot water issue might be due to the non-return valve. It's reassuring to have that confirmed, and although I thought it was the non-return valve, I didn't know exactly why. I didn't realise that it would be affecting the water pump too, but your explanation makes perfect sense!

Actually, the last time I used the hot water was before the van was out in a very snowy winter - it was literally covered in 2 feet of snow for several weeks, so your explanation ties in on that point too! Unfortunately I'm on my way there again for another winter, so I think I'll wait until the spring before fixing this!

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply so comprehensively and in a straightforward manner, I really appreciate it. Hopefully this will be of great help to people who have the same problem, as after a bit of searching I found that the no hot water is often the return valve, but I didn't know *why*. Such a straightforward answer will almost certainly help the next person whose pump doesn't turn off too!

Living up to your name - Thanks again Professor John!

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm pleased the information made sense even with teh spelling and grammar errors, and seems to corroborate the circumstances you are aware of. I should have added that its very important that you follow the drainage instructions to prevent frost damage. So I would make the effort to visit the camper and to do the drainage, becasue if there is a substantive amount of water in the heater or water filters (if fitted) then a extended period of frost can do a lot more than just cause a problem with teh non return valve (NRV) it can actually jack the tank off the heater.

 

[Ryan-hiace]

Ah right! Lucky it survived the first winter then by the sounds of things!

I will actually be taking it on the journey myself, so I'm guessing it's probably best to drain it before the journey as I believe where I'm headed is already snowing.

I don't suppose you have any instructions for draining them to hand do you? No problem if not, I'm a bit handy with a search engine and I'm sure I'll find it no problem so don't trouble yourself if you don't know the exact procedure. I have the manual, although I believe it's an installation rather than user manual, and I don't remember seeing anything about draining the unit in it.

I'm off to bed now and so if you don't have anything to hand I'll have a look in the morning. But thanks for the advice, I wouldn't have done a thing if you hadn't warned me!

By the way, don't think I didn't notice "teh spelling" - good one!

 

[Ryan-hiace]

Ok, so I've had a read of the manual and I removed the drain plug, it was simply on the outside of the van on the flue bit, and was entitled "Drain against frost". According to this diagram, item #5 is the drain plug and I opened that along with all the taps (pump off!), but then there is also a fast drain plug (#12), and I've read somewhere that this should be opened too? Is that correct? I don't really want to be messing around with everything inside the flue cowl unless it's really necessary.

#1 Burner control Module
#3 Insulation Jacket
#5 Drain Plug
#7 Hot water outlet,New Type
#10 Water Inlet,Non Return Valve
#11 Wall Switch/Remote
#12 C2 Pressure Relief Valve/Fast Drain
#13 Flue Cowl Ass. Ivory/White
#14 C2 Fusible Plug
#17 GE Thermal Cut Out(Reset)
#18 GE Thermostat
#20 C2/GE Tank Repair Kit
#21 Wall Switch New Type 22 630w Element (230v)
#23 830w Element (230v)

 

[Damian]

The fast drain allows air into the tank to assist draining, but with all taps open the same result happens, just a bit more slowly.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Ok

Spelling apart, ...

Ive just had a look at the photos on you link.

Initial observations

Looking at the state of the wires and fittings I suspect the water system you have is not the original. But I could be wrong about that.

Your third picture titled pressure valve, confirms you have whale pressure switch, and that is what should control the flow of water when you open a tap. However there is a blue pipe that comes of the top of the Y piece between the pressure switch and the back of the submersible pump inlet fitting, and I'm not certain what its function is.

Bearing in mind you have a motorhome, I do wonder if it has a fixed internal tank somewhere, or it may have an external pump connection inlet, similar to the one in the cupboard. This blue pipe may the alternative way to get water into the motorhome, Such dual systems were sold as a way to winterise caravans by bringing the water carrier inside to keep it frost free, There would a blank pump plug fitted into the inlet housing not being used. But they were also used in motorhomes to enable a user to use a smaller container when the main tank was empty, and there would have been some change over valves fitted somewhere. BUT I would have expected to see another pair of wires following the hose to power the pump, so their absence turns it into a bit of a mystery.

The fact the pump runs and pressurises the system enough to cause the pressure switch to turn off points to the fact this extra pipe is not the cause of your problems.

Pictures 6 & 7 confirm that you have a first generation Carver Cascade 2GE. This unit can heat the water by gas or mains electricity individually or together, giving a slightly faster heat up time. The controls for the gas and electric systems are separate and not dependant on each other. The reset button you can see is just a plastic button that loosely connected to the actual thermal trip inside, so its losness you describe is normal.

As I mentioned before the you have to push cold water in to get any of the heated water out. The cold water enters the heater at the bottom through a NRV built into the cold water connection fitting, Hot is drawn off the top of the tank.

You can find out if the cold water inlet is working well, by removing the external drain plug (allow any water in the tank to finish draining), then turn the pump on. If the pumped water barely flows or is non existent, then it points to the heaters NRV being compromised. Spares are available but you have be careful removing the failed unit as the plastic tends to become brittle and can leave its thread in the aluminium casting. Its advisable to replace both hot and cold connections as both will have become brittle.

If the flow is good (tea cup full in about 5 second or quicker), then the absence of hot water through the taps is something else.

Hard water may have caused a build up of scale in the heater which could be occluding the cold water transfer passage. This would need the heater top be stipped down, and I have to advise that all installation servicing or removal gas appliances should only be carried out by a person who is fully competent with the required methods and testing LPG systems.

If you are using the motorhome every day it should not be necessary to drain the heater down as the heat from occupation will probably keep the heater frost free. but if its going to be left for more than about 48 hours and the conditions might freeze its something you should consider.

YOu mention the fast drain facility. Earlier heaters did not have this added facility, you would have to check yours to know, by removing the external cowl (4 screws) then in the top Left Hand corner you will see a plastic fitting ( the pressure relief valve) If this fitting has a ring pull attached, that is the fast drain feature. Don't worry removing adn refitting the out flue cover is very easy and does not compromise the heater safety.

Old or new the same basic method applies. Turn the pump off so it can't run. remove the exterior drain plug from the heater and open all the hot taps so air can can flow back to the tank and replace the waster as it drains. Some early models of heater had problems when the caravan manufacturers pipe work would not let air back to the heater. So the quick drain feature was added. The ring pull allows the user to forcibly open the pressure relief valve which lets air back directly into the heater allowing it to drain more efficiently.

Drainage is very important even quite small amounts of water left in the water system can result in problems if it freezes.

 

[Damian]

Quote:" If this fitting has a ring pull attached, that is the fast drain feature."

There is NO ring pull !!!!
The release mechanism is a simple pull and 1/4 turn "button".

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M8f920cad849818f367e332c1f9cad76ao0&w=299&h=226&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0
In a lot of cases the pull has been removed as it sticks out too far to refit the cowl.
Some cowl had a hole for the pull to fit through.

 

[Ryan-hiace]

I'll be honest, some of what you wrote went a bit over my head! I'll try and address everything you mentioned to the best of my ability.

Possibly the blue pipe could be to the other set of taps? There are 2 shower taps and 2 sink taps. It's night time right now, so it's a bit of a pain to get out there and look again right now.

I don't believe there's a water tank other than the one that goes under the sink and contains the whale pump. The motorhome is pretty small, and I've poked around in it enough now that I would have noticed an extra tank.

Hmmm. I only want the water to work off gas. However, I won't be using the water heater this winter. I'm taking it somewhere extremely cold, but I'll only have to live in it for about 10 days, 2 weeks tops, and I'll have access to a gym with showers and internet access, so I'll mostly only sleep there. Mind you, I want to make sure the water heater isn't turned on when it's out of water, and the green lights seem to stay on regardless of the position of the switch on the brown cascade 2 box. Will it automatically remain off if there's no water in it and no water going to it?

I left the taps open and the drain valve open for several hours. The manual seems to suggest that's enough, so I think I won't be removing the cowl and digging around for the fast drain plug. It went the whole winter last year without draining at all!

This is all good information because although I won't be diagnosing or fixing the problems until spring now, I will need that information then, and I'm sure it'll help others too!

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm sorry if the information is too much, but these are the things that come to mind when investigating such problems.

You have added some new information that is concerning. You say the green light on the Cascade switch does not go out even when the switch is off! That is definitely wrong, The switch cover flips down and should reveal the switch, Leds and few components, two fuses and a DIN plug & socket. I suggest you unplug the Din Plug, and that should isolate the gas side from the power supply completely.

Damian is partly correct about fast drain valve. The latest versions do not have a ring pull, but the first ones with the facility did. As your heater is not the later Cascade 2 Rapide but only the Cascade 2 GE it is unlikely to have a fast drain valve unless it has been replaced at some time.

It would be illogical for the mystery blue pipe to go to another set of taps, as its connection into the system is on the wrong side of the pressure switch's NRV so when the tap is opened it wouldn't cause the the drop in pressure to trigger the pump. So that pipe is a still a mystery.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Damian,

The OP's heater is a relatively early Cascade 2GE. The fast drain valve was only fitted to the last of the C2GE modes before teh Rapide was introduced. The early versions did have a ring pull and were fully enclosed by the outer cowl

Please see an example here

http://nationalcaravanbreakers.co.uk/used-caravan-carver-cascade-ii-gas-water-heater-tank-and-bar

 

[Ryan-hiace]

I'll have a look tomorrow at the pipe again.

As for the green light, that's on the brown box that says cascade 2, not the actual heater unit itself, sorry, not sure if I was being clear. You can see it in one of the water tank pictures. There's no cover that flips it as far as I can see, but I haven't looked at it in that much detail other than flipping the switch up and down. Perhaps it was residual power in the LED, as I didn't look at it for long. I'll check tomorrow. Are all the LEDs you're talking about under the cowl?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'll have a look tomorrow at the pipe again.

As for the green light, that's on the brown box that says cascade 2, not the actual heater unit itself, sorry, not sure if I was being clear. You can see it in one of the water tank pictures. There's no cover that flips it as far as I can see, but I haven't looked at it in that much detail other than flipping the switch up and down. Perhaps it was residual power in the LED, as I didn't look at it for long. I'll check tomorrow. Are all the LEDs you're talking about under the cowl?

Hi again,
I was referring to brown switch marked Carver Cascade, screwed to the internal wall. The front cover does flip down, and if it is original, then inside you will find the components I mentioned. It's possible it may have been updated and instead of a DIN plug it may have a rectangular 4 wire cable connector. Either way to prevent the gas side of the heater functioning, disconnect the multiway connector.

It was always recommended to fit an isolation valve for each gas appliance. So it's worth looking for them an checking the heaters gas supply is turned off.

 

[Ryan-hiace]

Ok, I've had a bit more of a poke around!

You are indeed correct, the front of that panel does indeed flip down! Note, I'm guessing the red light is on because I've completely drained the water heater of water. It comes on about 5 to 10 seconds after the green light, and didn't do it before I drained the water.

I'm guessing I can just pull out the DIN Plug and that will prevent any power from getting to the heater? The green light stays on as long as the switch marked cascade is turned on on the van's main control panel (in the pics I linked to). I'm pretty sure that's the main ringmain for the power in the van, as I think have to switch it on to access power from the plugs too. Whether this means the pump is running through the inverter I'm not sure, but to be honest, I don't really care about that at this point in the game!

And do you think this is the gas valve? It certainly looks like I'd imagine it to look. Just have to find a key for it if so!

As for the pipes:

#1 - Goes through the partition connector box thing (I don't know if it has a function other than just as a connector to easily hook up the pump) and leads to water tank. As seen below, the other side of the white plastic square thing.
#2 - Goes to the sink cold tap
#3 - Goes to the shower cold tap
#4 - Goes to the water heater.

As far as I can tell there aren't any pipes that lead to mysterious places!

 

[Ryan-hiace]

and by the way, I really like how images are implemented in this forum! I'd have inserted all the pictures I linked to in the first post into the forum on my first post if I had imagined the forum would do such a nice job of formatting it!

 

[ProfJohnL]

OK Ryan,

THe pictures you have annotated and posted clearly demonstrate the Cascade heater wall switch is not fitted in accordance with the fitting instructions.

You appear to have both a DIN plug which I assume goes to the underside of the heater, but you also have a 4 way connector fitted. This is not normal and could explain why the power switch does not appear to work. THis may be a remote control system, Is there another heater control switch on the motorhomes main control panel?

As for the gas pipes, the components used are not normal caravan style LPG fittings I do not recognise the brass fitting with the 'key' facility and as such I can't assume from the pictures that it is the isolator for the Water heater as the pipe work seems to go in several directions. The normal arrangement is there should be a manually operated isolation valve for each gas appliance.

Now the blue water pipe you identify as no 3, is the mystery pipe. You say it goes to the cold shower tap, but crucially this pipe cannot control the pump as it's connected to the wrong side of the pressure switch!

This whole installation is very off beat, and I think that it needs to be properly redone to ensure the correct operations and safety of all parts of the system.

As this is a gas appliance, I advise you to have a gas competent person to correct the installation.

 

[Damian]

Quote " As for the gas pipes, the components used are not normal caravan style LPG fittings I do not recognise the brass fitting with the 'key' facility and as such I can't assume from the pictures that it is the isolator "

Sorry to disagree.
That is a gas shut off valve operated by a fan key as fitted to many older caravans and motorhomes.
What that one actually controls is a different matter, it needs to be traced.

 

[Ryan-hiace]

They thanks for all the info guys! This is the main control panel. The green lights on the brown cascade box only go green while the cascade switch is on on the van's main control panel. I unplugged the DIN from the brown cascade box, and the green light stays on, but the red light doesn't light up after 5 seconds anymore. I'm guessing that means for all intensive purposes the heater is off, as the reason the red light was coming on was probably because the water heater had been drained.

As for the gas, should I really be concerned with digging it out and closing the gas valve to the heater? I won't be running the taps when I'm using it this trip, and I've emptied the water tank too. I'll be using gas for about 2 weeks for heating, but that's it, by that time I'll have a place to sleep that doesn't have wheels, so I'll disconnect the gas bottle itself at the regulator.

My plan is to leave this until the spring, when I'll either fix it up and sell it, or fix it up and have an epic adventure in it. I'm most likely going to be spending around 6 months or so in New Zealand, in which case I will probably have to sell it. Depends on whether the job offer I'm expecting comes through or not!

EDIT: Oh and I just had a thought, perhaps the 4 way power is connected into the central power and inverter from the leisure battery. It would explain why the cascade switch also turns on the power at the TV and plug sockets... Or maybe a complete red herring and I'm being an idiot!

EDIT AGAIN: Oh and I totally understand what you mean about the pipes now that you mention it! It does totally look like the shower cold taps is the wrong side of the pressure switch! I can assure you that it did all work at one point, not sure how now that you've pointed it out though! If I get time and remember I'll have another look at the pipes just to triple check I labelled the picture right!

 

[Ryan-hiace]

Oops. Please see the previous comment, I edited it there. Didn't realise I couldn't then delete this post!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Again Ryan,

The main control panel you have now pictured does carry a switch and lights for the Cascade (Central switch).

This was done because the standard DIN cable was not long enough to reach the main control panel This was done to make the heater easier to control without having to get into the locker to do it. By rights the Cascade switch on the main control panel should only control the heater and no other appliances. So if its does as you suggest then some one has been tampering with the system.

The red light only comes on if the Burner has attempted to ignite but fails and locks out.. It does not indicate tank is drained, and in fact it is possible to still set the burner running even with the tank empty. For what ever reason the burner fails to ignite, perhaps the gas is already turned off, or there could be some other fault on the system.

 

[Ryan-hiace]

Hi again John.

As I'm sitting here I'm starting to doubt myself whether the cascade switch does do anything else like power the plugs. Perhaps I needed it to ignite the cascade 3000 gas heater and power the fans which circulate the hot air out from the heater, which admittedly makes sense now I think about it, as that is actually a cascade heater too. Until a couple of days ago I didn't even know where the water heater was and had certainly not paid any attention to the brand name on the gas heater! I'll check tomorrow!

Oh and I totally understand what you mean about the pipes now that you mention it! It does totally look like the shower cold taps is the wrong side of the pressure switch! I can assure you that it did all work at one point, not sure how now that you've pointed it out though! I'll have a triple check I didn't mess up the labelling of the picture, tomorrow when I double check the switches.

I take it if I unplug the DIN in the cascade brown box, that's enough to ensure that even if I have the cascade switch on, the water heater isn't gonna do anything strange like try and heat an empty unit and break anything is it? Ah and about the red light, I'm pretty sure I had detached the gas bottle to get in and have a look at the piping, so that's probably it. I've left it drained, and the DIN unplugged, so I'm hoping that's all there is to it in regards to making sure it'll be fine out of fluid and over the winter.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ryan.
The Carver Cascade 2GE is only a water heater. The space heater is not a Cascade. It is a Carver 3000, and it should not share any of the Carver Cascade 2GE's controls. The 3000 will most likely have an air circulation fan mounted behind, and this also has nothing to do with the Cascade.

Having disconnected the DIN plug will isolate the control system for thevgas side of the Cascade. The model you have is. Cascade 2 GE, which also has a mains electric element, and that is controlled by a different switch to the gas side. The element is fitted to the inboard end of the tank and it's electrical connections are inside the white plastic housing on the end of the tank. Follow the wire from this housing to find the control switch. As with gas side it should only be used when the tank is full of water. The control switch should be a fused spur type and it should have a 5A fuse in it. to prevent accidental turn on simply remove the fuse.

Given the current pipe work arrangement The only way the shower cold supply could control the water would be if the non return valve built into the pressure switch has stuck open. This would certainly explain the pump repeatedly cycling, as the pressurised water will simply leak back to water carrier.

I feel we are going round in circles and not getting anywhere. It is very clear from your description and the photo's that there are several issues with your installation. Have you got the owners manuals from arcsystems.biz? If not I strongly suggest you do, so you will see how both th Cascade and the Carver 3000 should work, and be installed.

I have to assume from the nature of your questions that you don't have LPG gas installation qualifications, so I also strongly advise you arrange to have your camper professionally checked.

 

[Ryan-hiace]

Hi John, thanks for all your help to date. I will try and trace the power cable for the water heater and remove the fuse. As for the other issues, really don't concern yourself with them. I just wanted to make sure the heater won't kill itself now that I've removed the water from it!

Ah yes, of course, I'm getting my carver and cascade mixed up. Been a lot to think about and learn the past few days!

I can confirm that I have had a hot shower in the van before, and all the taps worked fine, and the pump never used to cycle continuously, so there must be something I've not noticed or told you guys about, because it definitely worked ok in it's current setup at one point!

Everything else can wait until after the winter. As I need to sleep in the van for a maximum of 14 days, so my main concern is that the gas heating works, which it does. I ran it for about an hour a couple of days ago, and I could not smell has inside the van and the carbon monoxide detector was quiet too. I'll get someone to have a look at it in the spring.

Thanks a lot for your help.