I'm sure that this is easy to answer but why do we now call diesel's Common Rail whereas a few years ago they were simply Diesels or, Turbo Diesels?
Is there any difference?
Thanks !
John
Is there any difference?
Thanks !
John
Common Rail ?
- Thread starter JohnI.Stephen
- Start date
John,
The Common Rail Injection System (Mercedes Benz, BMW, and many other car makers that use Bosch injection systems) refers to the way high pressure diesel fuel is served to the injectors.
The high pressure pump continuously delivers fuel to an accumulator - the common rail - at a pressure of around 1,500 (1st generation) to 2,000 (4th generation) atmospheres.
Fuel is fed from the rail to the injectors, which spray the fuel into the combustion chambers under the control of the ECU computer.
The VW / AUDI group uses the (Siemens) Pumpe Deuse system where each fuel injector has it's own integrated high pressure pump - called the Unit Injector System - also controlled by the car ECU computer.
Both of these systems have greatly improved fuel consumption, reduced pollution, and made the engine quieter - through much better control of the injection process.
Robert
The Common Rail Injection System (Mercedes Benz, BMW, and many other car makers that use Bosch injection systems) refers to the way high pressure diesel fuel is served to the injectors.
The high pressure pump continuously delivers fuel to an accumulator - the common rail - at a pressure of around 1,500 (1st generation) to 2,000 (4th generation) atmospheres.
Fuel is fed from the rail to the injectors, which spray the fuel into the combustion chambers under the control of the ECU computer.
The VW / AUDI group uses the (Siemens) Pumpe Deuse system where each fuel injector has it's own integrated high pressure pump - called the Unit Injector System - also controlled by the car ECU computer.
Both of these systems have greatly improved fuel consumption, reduced pollution, and made the engine quieter - through much better control of the injection process.
Robert
Robert; thanks, that's partly answered the question of what is it; but what about the TURBO bit? My current C250 Turbo Diesel uses a Bosche injector system; so does the KIA Sorento (which I have ordered by the way!) and yet the KIA is not called a Turbo; presumably because it has no Turbo charger ????
John
John
Hi John
The Kia Sorento does have a Turbo charger. This is not refered to in their Technical Spec page though.
When driving these cars at motorway speeds the handbook advises to leave the engine ticking over for a short spell to allow the turbo to cool down before switching off.
Jim
The Kia Sorento does have a Turbo charger. This is not refered to in their Technical Spec page though.
When driving these cars at motorway speeds the handbook advises to leave the engine ticking over for a short spell to allow the turbo to cool down before switching off.
Jim
The differnce is my wife and i have a common rail in the wardrobe of the caravan but at home we have seperate rails , this obviously means less hanging space on a common rail i hope this helps?
just thought i would add, just so the picture is totally
accurate that the ALFA156 jtd, was the first car to have said
technology.
not surprising really as it is part of the FIAT group, who
pioneered the common rail system, which bosch has a liscence
to produce.
just thought being as the statement involved all german makes,
it might interest some that FIAT acually holds the patent and
awards for.
accurate that the ALFA156 jtd, was the first car to have said
technology.
not surprising really as it is part of the FIAT group, who
pioneered the common rail system, which bosch has a liscence
to produce.
just thought being as the statement involved all german makes,
it might interest some that FIAT acually holds the patent and
awards for.
I had a Fiat JTD engine in a Punto, very economical but that was the only positive, twice I had to have about
John,
It was possible to buy versions of popular diesel engined cars without a turbocharger, the previous generation VW Golf SDI was a popular example. Fuel consumption was good, but the engine was a bit limited in power and torque.
The turbocharger fitted to most modern diesel engined cars, for example the Golf TDI, is there to increase the amount of air in the combustion chamber.
More air, means more oxygen, and this allows the engine to burn more fuel, and extract more power and torque from the same sized engine.
Under normal road conditions, people often report equal or better fuel consumption from a turbocharged car, compared to non-turbocharged, and much better driveability.
Why do you see some cars sporting the name Turbo, some using the name CDI, some Pumpe Deuse? It's mainly product marketing, ten or so years ago Turbos were starting to appear on diesel cars, so that got slapped on the back of the car.
Robert
It was possible to buy versions of popular diesel engined cars without a turbocharger, the previous generation VW Golf SDI was a popular example. Fuel consumption was good, but the engine was a bit limited in power and torque.
The turbocharger fitted to most modern diesel engined cars, for example the Golf TDI, is there to increase the amount of air in the combustion chamber.
More air, means more oxygen, and this allows the engine to burn more fuel, and extract more power and torque from the same sized engine.
Under normal road conditions, people often report equal or better fuel consumption from a turbocharged car, compared to non-turbocharged, and much better driveability.
Why do you see some cars sporting the name Turbo, some using the name CDI, some Pumpe Deuse? It's mainly product marketing, ten or so years ago Turbos were starting to appear on diesel cars, so that got slapped on the back of the car.
Robert
Thanks all; especially liked the one about the common rail in the caravan !! Anyway, I now have a little more understanding.
John
John
which basically means you do not know what the cr, system is,
as its impossible for them to have had, as the pressures involved
could not be applied 20 nay 10 years ago.
all good examples of what the difference is between various manufacturers of diesel engines. only thing i disagree with is the fiat thing, can't see fiat inventing anything reliable and as i drive trains every day with cummins common rail diesel engines fitted i think cummins may just have been the pioneers of the technology, esspesially since most of the trains are 20 + years old. its new to road cars but certainly not new technology.
giovanni, no need to be so nasty, ok you are patriotic no problem with that but if you are going to argue a point at least make sure you know the facts. as ive stated below i drive trains that are over 20 years old and they use cummins common rail diesel engines, they are there on the train, fact not fiction.
Let's keep it clean.
FIAT have a history in diesel innovation; the FIAT Chroma TD in 1987 was the first passenger car with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, but there were very serious problems with engine noise - it sounded like a truck engine but mounted in a top of the range car.
Other car manufacturers used an in-direct injection system, where fuel was squirted into a pre-combustion chamber. This in-direct injection was very much quieter, and made Peugeot / Citroen one of the market leaders at this time, but was not as fuel efficient as direct injection.
Ten years later, as Giovanni says, FIAT significantly increased the fuel pressure and with a re-designed injector jet, solved most of the noise problems associated with direct injection.
As I understand it, soon afterwards Bosch bought the patent for the high pressure technology, and introduced the CDI technology to the other car manufacturers - and this is how most of us recognise the technology.
Most diesel engines since Rudolf Diesel's invention over 100 years ago have used a common reservoir to supply fuel to the injectors - as Icemaker says - they are all what we know call "common rail".
The FIAT patent is a technology improvement patent - it describes how to improve current (1990's) system by using very high pressure fuel and modified injectors to produce a "quiet" engine and good fuel efficiency.
Robert
FIAT have a history in diesel innovation; the FIAT Chroma TD in 1987 was the first passenger car with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, but there were very serious problems with engine noise - it sounded like a truck engine but mounted in a top of the range car.
Other car manufacturers used an in-direct injection system, where fuel was squirted into a pre-combustion chamber. This in-direct injection was very much quieter, and made Peugeot / Citroen one of the market leaders at this time, but was not as fuel efficient as direct injection.
Ten years later, as Giovanni says, FIAT significantly increased the fuel pressure and with a re-designed injector jet, solved most of the noise problems associated with direct injection.
As I understand it, soon afterwards Bosch bought the patent for the high pressure technology, and introduced the CDI technology to the other car manufacturers - and this is how most of us recognise the technology.
Most diesel engines since Rudolf Diesel's invention over 100 years ago have used a common reservoir to supply fuel to the injectors - as Icemaker says - they are all what we know call "common rail".
The FIAT patent is a technology improvement patent - it describes how to improve current (1990's) system by using very high pressure fuel and modified injectors to produce a "quiet" engine and good fuel efficiency.
Robert
giovanni,keep your asumpions to your self and dont post comments that i dont know what i am talking about,I AM A FULLY TIME SERVED DIESEL ENGINEER WITH 30 YEARS EXPERIANCE ON CARS TRUCKS AND LARGE PLANT
Giovanni,
Don't get me wrong I like the styling Italian cars but build quality on the 3 Fiats that my family has owned have been truly awful coupled with dealers who diagnostic abilities are non existent.
So if VAG engines are so bad how come the feature in Ford and Volvo's and that there are VW Taxi's running on their original engine with over 600K on the clock.
Where is a CR engine in the VW line up? PD is something quite different. On that point how come there aren't rows upon rows of 156 & 166's waiting to wisk you into Milan when you are at Malpensa .oh that's right there all Mercedes's and VW Passatt's !! in AR home city that tells me something.!!
Monkey's Husband
Don't get me wrong I like the styling Italian cars but build quality on the 3 Fiats that my family has owned have been truly awful coupled with dealers who diagnostic abilities are non existent.
So if VAG engines are so bad how come the feature in Ford and Volvo's and that there are VW Taxi's running on their original engine with over 600K on the clock.
Where is a CR engine in the VW line up? PD is something quite different. On that point how come there aren't rows upon rows of 156 & 166's waiting to wisk you into Milan when you are at Malpensa .oh that's right there all Mercedes's and VW Passatt's !! in AR home city that tells me something.!!
Monkey's Husband
the 2.0 audi and now vw will be fitting it to the 2.5 v6 engine
listen i never said vw were bad whatcar survey did espiecally the passat, buy the mag.
and one famous taxi doing 600 k isn't all taxis doing it.
becides that what was actaully left of the original car.
now this is the funny bit, FIATS robotics depo is a class leader
and sold all over the world, so who are you to say your car is
not build using FIAT robots.. lol.
dealers totally agree bunch of w.nkers..
Giovanni,I worked on Cummins engines in 1976, and can assure you that they did indeed have common rail diesel systems.They also had V8 and v10 engines. In their day they were very advanced machines.
posted half my reply in comments, i thought only the galaxy
used to have a vw engine and now ford build there own range and
they are common rail engined .
and if you were only half informed you would know, vauxhall/opel
saab and suzuki use the 1.9 engine as does the vauvhall vans,
which seem to be selling pretty well.all fiat based.
add to that the new 1.3 multijet just won this years class for
engineering and efficientcy ect. its a common misconception that
fiat are the newboys on the block when it comes to diesels, they
are not.
and while we are on the subject, i worked for 9 years for the midland autotrader, going to traders and private customers to do
adverts. i have seen how some well know reliable cars from
many makes, being not so reliable.
what went wrong with your engines you never said..
used to have a vw engine and now ford build there own range and
they are common rail engined .
and if you were only half informed you would know, vauxhall/opel
saab and suzuki use the 1.9 engine as does the vauvhall vans,
which seem to be selling pretty well.all fiat based.
add to that the new 1.3 multijet just won this years class for
engineering and efficientcy ect. its a common misconception that
fiat are the newboys on the block when it comes to diesels, they
are not.
and while we are on the subject, i worked for 9 years for the midland autotrader, going to traders and private customers to do
adverts. i have seen how some well know reliable cars from
many makes, being not so reliable.
what went wrong with your engines you never said..
I have sold cars for 10 years now and I can honestly say the 2 years I spent selling both Fiat and Alfa Romeos was the worst I have ever had. I had so many complaints about build quality and customers cars breaking down on a regular basis.I had 2 Multiplas recovered within an hour of collection,both with a known fault that Fiat did nothing about.Both Stilo's and 156's wearing front tyres out at 3-4k miles because of a known suspension problem.Alfa 156 selespeeds loosing drive,at one stage I had 9 waiting for parts,all in a row!Fiat on JD Power commenting about their bad performance blamed it on the dealers, reality is if you have a warranty claim you have to fax for authorisation and wait for a reply before you can order parts and carry out the work, the reply could take weeks!!!!Award winning design and technology yes for sure,the ability to put it into practice...NEVER.
Giovanni,
My Punto had developed a clicking sound at 50 K audible to both driver and the other road users, Fiat dealer - Northgate of Canterbury took 2 day's to diagnose pulleys followed by 3 days to get VOR parts and fit them. Then at about 80K the same thing happens again this time I used Thames in Slough which is on the same road as the Fiat HQ, you would thing being under the nose of them it would make customer service good.. well let's not go there just to say I could go Italy have a good Holiday in the time that it took them to fit the right part.
This week my sisters JTD Bravo broken down because the ECU has thrown a wobbly... problem is that the ECU is main dealer supply as the software is beyond the investment of the small independent garage, apart from this it needs a new MAF at 30K they usually last between 50-80K on VW engines.
This week I had to order a new wheel bolt for my wife's Sharan (as ruined by a large tyre co) go in to the dealer order at 4.30 pm next morning phone call from the dealer @ 9.15 am it's in.
The Passat Taxi cited was on it's original engine and was a number used by Shell as a control for their Lubricants, they also cited a 190 Mercedes with over a million K on the engine. It was monitored by the TUV institute which I'm sure Lutz could give us the full story on but are always cited as the reference point for anything automotive.
Finally don't' Vauxhall fit Renault engines in their vans the last one I drove a Vivaro has a Renault engine as the both come out of IBC in Luton
So it's not all gloom I understand from a farmer friend that Lamborghini make Tractors.
Ciao Monkeys Mate
replying to monkey first.
so no engine problems, and this thread was about cr which feeds
the engine.
no vauxhall vans use fiat engines.
maf problems? they can go anytime, and by the way where do you
think they come from? bosch same as vw, so how on earth do they
last longer on one make than another. infact a few vag owners
have starting fitting the same mafs as mercedes fit [different
company]
reply to brian.. yes i'm sure you are correct, suspension problems at 3/4k? yes right.... more like 10/20k rubbers not being up to it,neverless unexceptable. but then using the word
suspension parts without using the actual part, is why fiat/alfa
are overhauling their dealerships. to many people working their that don't understand anything about the cars and then everyone
starts passing the buck, afterall go to a fiat or alfa site, and
the people who have cars out of warranty, still think the dealer
service is no good,and thats why they use specailist.
i nearly had the miss fortune to to have my aux belt and tensioners replaced by a fiat dealer, who insisted that it was
this that was the cause of a squeel. i bluntly told him i want
the crankshaft pulley changing and that was all. squeel went
and i saved myself 300 pounds. when my car started to run a little hotter, they wanted to change the waterpump on a 2.4 jtd
that had done 100k, this involes a cambelt job as well
so no engine problems, and this thread was about cr which feeds
the engine.
no vauxhall vans use fiat engines.
maf problems? they can go anytime, and by the way where do you
think they come from? bosch same as vw, so how on earth do they
last longer on one make than another. infact a few vag owners
have starting fitting the same mafs as mercedes fit [different
company]
reply to brian.. yes i'm sure you are correct, suspension problems at 3/4k? yes right.... more like 10/20k rubbers not being up to it,neverless unexceptable. but then using the word
suspension parts without using the actual part, is why fiat/alfa
are overhauling their dealerships. to many people working their that don't understand anything about the cars and then everyone
starts passing the buck, afterall go to a fiat or alfa site, and
the people who have cars out of warranty, still think the dealer
service is no good,and thats why they use specailist.
i nearly had the miss fortune to to have my aux belt and tensioners replaced by a fiat dealer, who insisted that it was
this that was the cause of a squeel. i bluntly told him i want
the crankshaft pulley changing and that was all. squeel went
and i saved myself 300 pounds. when my car started to run a little hotter, they wanted to change the waterpump on a 2.4 jtd
that had done 100k, this involes a cambelt job as well
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