Complete Newbie needs advice on suitability of outfit

Feb 14, 2008
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Hi folks,

I've looked at numerous posts covering towing outfits but as a very nearly caravan owner I could really use some specific advice (and I promise not to sue anybody).

We've just paid a deposit on a 2005 van and, despite assurances from the dealer (large and highly respected) that our car is up to the job I'm starting to have some doubts. It's not helped by he fact that we are first time caravaners, I'm as green as the hills, and I've never towed anything in my life.

Initially we looked at a five birth van with bench seats at the front and a bed to make up in the rear. This weighed in at about 1070Kg unladen and all looked pretty good with respect to towing it behind my 2007 2.0 litre 140bhp turbo diesel Mondeo. Principally we'll be using he van for two or three, plus a dog, with an occasional four. However, we then had second thoughts and decided that a broadly similar sized van with a permanently made up bed in the rear and L-shaped seating arrangement would be a better proposition.

Problem is, that it's a little heavier......

Before we agreed to purchase, the kindly old gent who made the deal called up the van and my car on his state of he art 'Towsafe' software and dumped out a sheet to suggest that all was well. Subsequently, following further reading on my part, I've studied the form in more detail, and I'm not 100% convinced.

Now for some numbers:

Mondeo

Kerb 1559kg

Nose 75kg

Max tow 1800kg

Gross 2170kg

Train 3970kg

Van (single axle)

MRO 1193kg

MTPLM 1397kg

Payload 204kg

Est Nose 97kg

Knowing what I know now, I feel that fudging the program to give a tick against a kerb/MTPLM ratio of 89% (and corresponding match notes of "Experienced: Calculated at a match braked percentage of 100% of the vehicles kerb weight) may have been a little bit naughty, knowing that I've never towed. It actually calculates out at 89.6%, somewhat above the 85% guideline. However, I've got a lot of diving experience, a decent stabiliser and, from what I've read on various sites, I will probably be OK. After all I can always (try to) reduce the payload to 132kg to get the ratio to 85% (am I being naive?)

With respect to max train weights and max tow weights the Mondeos published figures are with driver only, but allowing for the full van MTPLM and 300kg of extra people and ballast in the car I'm still within the max limit, so I'm reasonably happy on his front.

What's concerning me more is the difference between the nose weights. If I take the figure generated by the software it's a 22kg discrepancy. If I assume a reduced payload, an 85% ratio and a 7% nose weight figure, it's 17kg. Can I reasonably expect to balance this out by shifting weight from being uniformly distributed (although ideally front loaded) to being back end loaded? I know that 17 - 22kg isn't much in real terms but I have no experience to suggest what this is likely to do to stability.

Am I worrying unnecessarily, or should I be asking for my deposit back and looking at a lighter van?

Advice gratefully received.
 
Aug 25, 2006
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My primary concern would be the noseweight of the van.

If its 97kg at the hitch with the van level and unladen (no gas bottles, front locker empty) then you have a serious problem. On the other hand if its like that ready to roll with 2 gas bottles, if you were to remove one of them and load carefully (awning etc over the axle or marginally to the rear) wuth a little fine tuning you will be very close.

Performance wise, the Mondeo should cope, its just that if you haven`t towed before your expectations may not live up to reality, it may be worth `borrowing` someone experienced to have a little run with you for advice and to calm any unease.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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On paper I don't see a problem. OK, the weight ratio is a just a fraction under 90% and therefore over the recommended 85%, but that should still be quite manageable.

The max. train weights and max. tow weights for the Mondeo that you refer to are not for driver only. The kerbweight is the only figure that applies to a driver-only condition.

Regarding noseweight, the 75kg specified for the car will be your limit. I take it that the 97kg that you mention was calculated using a 7% formula. However, that formula was created before car manufacturers specified their own limits and, at the time, people didn't have any better information to go by. It is therefore rather anachronistic in this day and age. 75kg is now a pretty standard noseload throughout the car industry (excluding 4x4's, etc.) and this figure has proved to be perfectly adequate except for the very biggest caravans.
 
Nov 6, 2005
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It's not a perfect match but I'd be happy with my son, who's never towed, buying an outfit like that.

Just one point to add - the outfit isn't permitted for post '97 drivers if they haven't passed an E towing test as the car gross plus caravan MTPLM is over 3500kg.
 
Feb 14, 2008
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Thanks for the feedback. Feeling a little happier, but still concerned over the nose weight issue.

I don't know how the 'Towsafe' software calculated the estimated nose weight, it featured a pretty comprehensive database, so I would imagine it's a manufacturers figure (for ref we are talking about a Baily Pageant Vendee). I assumed a 7% figure in calculating the lower figure. I think I may just get the supplier to weigh it for me (in which case it will be unladen, without gas cylinders).
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Actually, the noseweight issue would be the least of my worries, as I am always able to adjust to suit, simply by appropriate weight distribution of the payload. It is quite likely that the actual noseweight of the empty caravan will be nowhere near the 97kg that you mention. Maybe it is around 75kg, in which case you are lucky and don't have to do anything. If it isn't, all you have to do is to jiggle around a bit with the stuff inside to achieve 75kg. Don't forget that you will have to do the same when it is loaded up, too. It is highly unlikely that 75kg empty will also result in 75kg loaded up without the need for some re-adjustment.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Hi Jeff

We had Pageant s5 vendee which we originally towed with our Renault Laguna estate 2.2 diesel. Not too different from your Mondeo. I was towing around the 90% mark with no difficulty.

However I did notice the slip stream suction of larger vehicles when being overtaken, coaches especially. I did use a noseweight guage and always found the Vendee with all our kit properly loaded gave a noseweight around 75kgs.

I only had one mod and that was the addition of Grayston spring assistors to beef up the rear suspension.

If you are sensible and keep an eye on things I don't think you will have any problems. The Vendee is a well balanced caravan and tows easily and stabily.

Good luck

Alan
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Jeff

I think that if the specification figures for the car and caravan you have provided are correct, than as the previous respondents have replied I don't think you will have a problem. The 85% is only guideline and whilst it is a sensible starting point for novices don't loose too much sleep over it.

You should not rely on 'Towsafe' as a number of these the third party sites have been shown to hold inaccurate data about some cars and caravans - always check your info with the relevant handbook, dealer or manufacturer.

Just to reiterate the nose load issue. The maximum nose load you should have is determined by the lower value of either the car or the caravan's specification so in your case you must not exceed 75Kg.

I hope it is obvious to you that the actual nose load the caravan exerts can be adjusted by rearranging the weight distribution in the caravan. Move few heavier items further back, and the resultant nose load will reduce.

The 7% Figure is a guide only, and it does not reflect the advances in car and caravan design in recent years.

Measuring the imposed nose load must be done correctly to obtain an accurate result. The car and caravan should be on a flat surface. The hitch of the caravan must be at the same height above the floor as when it is hitched, and the measurement must be taken from the ball socket vertically down.

RogerL's point about post 97 driving tests is becoming increasingly valid. So please check you licence entitlements.

Just treat you outfit like a bus, it takes longer to accelerate, longer to clear a junctions, and is of course wider. - Enjoy
 
Feb 14, 2008
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Thank you all, I appreciate the feedback and support.

Don't think I have to worry overly about the Towing test, got my license in about 1985.

I had 2 guys bring the van round yesterday to make sure it goes through our gate and fits where we'd like it on the drive (made sure that was part of the deal), now it's gone off again to go through the workshop before final delivery. So, looks like we've got ourselves a caravan....almost.

Comments from one of the guys were that:

* The estimated nose is calculated from the gross weight and it will probably be less in reality.

* The smaller van would have the same nose weight, as it's the distribution that matters and they are different.

* My cars more than up to the job and that if we all went purely by manufacturers nose weight and the 7% guide 8 out of 10 cars that are currently towing wouldn't be suitable (!).

Off to buy a nose weight measurer (battery, water hog, waste trolley, melamine plates, gas bottle, levelling ramps/chocks, hitch lock, wheel clamp.....the list goes on).

So we'll see.......off to Postern Hill at Easter; first trip out, but a nice straight run along the motorway, turn right and keep going until you reach the site. Fingers crossed.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Jeff

My new Wyoming comes with two new Al-ko wheel locks.

I now have two Bulldog Centaur "Gold seal" wheel clamps that will fit your Pageant perfectly.New in April 2005.You only need one and it even comes in its own canvas bag.

If you are interested I'll tell the mod to give you my e-mail address.

I had in mind
 
Feb 14, 2008
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Alan,

Nice one. Not entirely sure how normal tyre codes equate to mm, but according to the Bailey service manual the vendee has 195/70 R14 L196 tyres. If it's a match I'll gratefully take one of those off your hands for 50 quid.

Cheers,

Jeff
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Jeff

fax me on 01793 752073. It's a fax only so you can't ring me nor breach my confidentiality. The Centaur is adjustable and absolutely bullet proof. It will fit you van with no adjustment.

Cheers

Alan
 
Feb 14, 2008
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Alan,

Thanks. I work from home and have never bothered to set my PC up for fax. My wife will fax my mobile number to you from work tomorrow. I'm in your area Thursday this week and Tuesday next, maybe we can meet then.

If not I can always pop over one evening, or one weekend.

Cheers,

Jeff
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Hi Jeff

Lovely seeing you today. Hope your maiden voyage goes well. If you get stuck with the clamp give me a call and I'll try and help.

One more Bulldog Centaur wheel clamp to go now. I'll try the small ads in PC and the Caravan Club unless somewhere out there needs one????

Cheers

Alan
 
Aug 13, 2007
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Just one point to add - the outfit isn't permitted for post '97 drivers if they haven't passed an E towing test as the car gross plus caravan MTPLM is over 3500kg.

Roger,

I am trying to get my head around your figures.

Jeff states that the kerb wt. of the car is 1559kg & the mtplm of the caravan is 1397kg. This will if the figures are correct a train wt of 2859 kg which is well under the 3500kg restriction.

My 4x4 kerb is 2200, my van mtplm is 1600kg this is a train of 3800kg. Only 300kg over 3500.

It is only 4x4s & very large cars that will exeed 3500kg
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Graham,

You have under estimated the mass used to calculate the outfits total mass. It is not based on the kerbweight of the tow car but the Maximum authorised masses.

I quote from the DVLA web site:

"The term maximum authorised mass (MAM), which is also known as gross weight and permissible maximum weight, is the maximum weight of the vehicle that may be used on the road including the maximum load the vehicle may safely carry. This is normally shown on a plate fitted to the vehicle."

The post 97 driving test only give category B status for new drivers.

I quote from the DVLA web site for the standards licence category B:

"Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg having not more than eight passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg. Combinations of towing vehicles in category B and a trailer, where the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3500kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle"

It is important to note and to realise that the requirement is based on the MAM, not on the actual mass, so it is illegal to tow a combination that can exceed the 3500Kg MAM even though it may not be fully loaded and actually less than 3500 when weighed.

Based on these statements and reviewing the MAM's of even quite basic cars the 3500 Gross train weight will be easily exceeded with even modest caravans.
 
Mar 16, 2005
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Jeff. I believe all the main issues have been answered for you.

Just a minor piont, if yu do like a good cuppa or coffee, get yourself a real cup those plastic things ruin the taste.
 
Aug 8, 2007
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Hmmm...

'The tail wagging the dog' springs to mind for me.

I just wouldn't go there.

Stands to reason that if the 'van is almost as heavy as the car...then....basic physics kicks in....

If the car is heavier than the 'van....

I couldn't do it, being 'unsure' - not knowing - especially because I'd have my little girl in the car - her fate would be my responsibility.

Yes, people do exceed the recommendations - and yes, they all claim 'Hey - it's fine!' There's always that 'BUT.'

I wouldn't.

You have to choose.

Mac
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Hi Mac

I don't get your point?

There's nothing wrong with Jeff's rig , weight wise.

John L's points relate to weight restriction on licences for people who passed the standard car test post 1997.

Whose tail ia wagging what dog?

Cheers

Alan
 
Mar 16, 2005
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right, you can shoot me down on this piont,but i bought a german caravan because it had proper suspension and a much longer A frame.

To me these were real safety issues to help control any tail wagging,and although i tow under the 85% rule,thats only because i have a galaxy.

Would rather tow at 95% but have my spec, then 75% and not have my spec.

We all have a choice as to what we have, nothings totally black and white where the 85% so called rule comes into it.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Mac's comment is fair, but I find a bit overcautious, given the data that Jeff supplied. For many years I towed at just under 100% weight ratio, then changed to a 4x4, now I'm back to about 98% and, driving with due care, I have never found the outfit unmanageable, even in critical situations, especially since the caravan has an electronic stabiliser fitted (similar to the AlKo ATC). An impending snake can always be caught if one reacts appropriately (or lets the ATC do it for you).
 

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