Consumer Rights Act & trade shows

[Surfer]

On page 117 of the latest PC magazine there is an article about your rights when purchasing however it only touches lightly on the subject as the actual legislarion is of course quite confusing.
On numerous caravan forums people have posted that at a trade show like the NEC on the spur of the moment they have placed a deposit on a caravan, motorhome or other related item. On returning home they have regretted the decision for whatever reason and then want to cancel. Although they may phone the dealership the next day to cancel invariably the dealership will refuse the refund which could be up to 10% of the value of the caravan.
The CRA states that the consumer has the right to cancel The consumer may cancel a distance or off-premise
s contract at any time in the cancellation period without giving any reason, and without incurring any costs other than any under these provisions however the definition of "off premises" is vague when it comes to trade shows which are held twice a year for 6 days each time.
Is the stall at the trade show from which the dealer is operating deemed off premises or on premises as the stall is only of a temporary nature and not permanent? In addition, the goods can take weeks or even months to be delivered so a dealership would not suffer any financial loss if the consumer cancelled within 14 days of placing the deposit, but especially if the consumer cancelled within 48 hours.
It seems that the legislation regards an “off-premises contract” as a contract between a trader and a consumer which is any of these—
(a)
a contract concluded in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, in a place which is not the business premises of the trader;
(b)
a contract for which an offer was made by the consumer in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, in a place which is not the business premises of the trader;
(c)
a contract concluded on the business premises of the trader or through any means of distance communication immediately after the consumer was personally and individually addressed in a place which is not the business premises of the trader in the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer;
(d)
a contract concluded during an excursion organised by the trader with the aim or effect of promoting and selling goods or services to the consumer;
It would be interesting to get some feedback on trade shows and refunds from a reputable source who can relate to the specific areas of the law. Perhaps PC can look into this aspect and report in some future edition?

 

[KeefySher]

What dealers are taking 10% on caravans? Name them, or is it hyperbole? £500 is a more realistic deposit that we paid, as for cars too. Always pay it on a credit card to give extra back up in times of trouble. £100 on a credit card as deposit against a high value accessory triggers the credit card protection, so it would be sensible to pay the £100 even if it is over 10% of the for example, awning.

The forum posters who have actually been denied a refund of deposit upon changing their minds should identify the dealers denying deposit refund. A contract should be fair. Distance selling regulations also apply to the practice you describe at caravan shows. We are in the information age, adverse information in the public domain such as forums are probably better than reverting to law

The NEC show is promoted by the industry, the stands for purchasing caravans are in the name of the manufacturers, who operate the scheme of selling through dealers only, and rely on the shows to boost sales and launch new products. This could be interpreted as restrictive practices. It is not a trade show, it is a public exhibition open to members of the public, not limited to 'trade'. The revised CRA last October now enables recourse to the manufacturer of caravans directly without need to go through the supplying dealer.

As you are paying a deposit on something that does not exist, as you say any loss is debatable. The contract you sign on paying a deposit must contain the details of any cooling off period.

Write to your MP if you believe the legislation is flawed, get it changed, that is what they are paid for.

 

[Surfer]

What dealers are taking 10% on caravans? Name them, or is it hyperbole? £500 is a more realistic deposit that we paid, as for cars too. Always pay it on a credit card to give extra back up in times of trouble. £100 on a credit card as deposit against a high value accessory triggers the credit card protection, so it would be sensible to pay the £100 even if it is over 10% of the for example, awning.

The forum posters who have actually been denied a refund of deposit upon changing their minds should identify the dealers denying deposit refund. A contract should be fair. Distance selling regulations also apply to the practice you describe at caravan shows. We are in the information age, adverse information in the public domain such as forums are probably better than reverting to law

The NEC show is promoted by the industry, the stands for purchasing caravans are in the name of the manufacturers, who operate the scheme of selling through dealers only, and rely on the shows to boost sales and launch new products. This could be interpreted as restrictive practices. It is not a trade show, it is a public exhibition open to members of the public, not limited to 'trade'. The revised CRA last October now enables recourse to the manufacturer of caravans directly without need to go through the supplying dealer.

As you are paying a deposit on something that does not exist, as you say any loss is debatable. The contract you sign on paying a deposit must contain the details of any cooling off period.

Write to your MP if you believe the legislation is flawed, get it changed, that is what they are paid for.

Unfortunately none of the above relates to a purchase at a trade show especially as the Distance Selling Regulations have been superceded by the Consumer Rights Act 2015. The regulations do make reference to the trade shows, but are not very clear. Have you studied the CRA 2015?
Yes the 10% was a figure plucked out of the air as deposits seem to range from about £100 right through to £1000 or more.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...The NEC show is promoted by the industry, the stands for purchasing caravans are in the name of the manufacturers, who operate the scheme of selling through dealers only, and rely on the shows to boost sales and launch new products. This could be interpreted as restrictive practices. It is not a trade show, it is a public exhibition open to members of the public, not limited to 'trade'. The revised CRA last October now enables recourse to the manufacturer of caravans directly without need to go through the supplying dealer...

I concur with KeefySher regards using a credit card and the status of the caravan show as not being a dealers normal place of business or their registered address, Also the goods you see are only samples and not the goods you are purchasing, so I belive distance selling regulations will apply.

In addition it should be the case that a contract for a major purchase like a caravan should also have a reasonable cooling off period in which either party can reassess their position and if necessary withdraw from the contract.

Where I deviate from KeefySher's perspective is regards the CRA offering direct recourse to the manufacturer. All references in teh CRA still relate to the contract between the seller and the customer. As far as I am aware, none of the major caravan manufacturers sell new caravans direct to the public.

With regards to shows such as the caravan exhibitions, The stands at the show are usually paid for by the manufacturer, the items on display are considered to be samples to be viewed to enable prospective customers to make an informed choice about which one to choose. It's like a 3D catalogue. If you place an order, it will be with the company who issues the paper work, which in most cases is a dealer not the manufacturer.

As far as I have seen, the CRA does not provide any direct recourse to the manufacturer unless the contract directly involves them.

 

[Surfer]

Normally the contract is signed between the consumer and the dealer who is the supplier and thsi will probably be on the manufacturer's stand at the NEC. As the DSR are obsolete and have been replaced by the CRA 2015, where does that leave the consumer if purchasing at a trade show ? Is operating off the manufacturers stand deemed operating off an extension of the dealer's business premises?

 

[KeefySher]

Unfortunately none of the above relates to a purchase at a trade show especially as the Distance Selling Regulations have been superceded by the Consumer Rights Act 2015. The regulations do make reference to the trade shows, but are not very clear. Have you studied the CRA 2015?
Yes the 10% was a figure plucked out of the air as deposits seem to range from about £100 right through to £1000 or more.

Are the reported refusal of deposit return also plucked from the air?

'Not very clear' is then the downfall of the CRA2015. I have studied Contract Law and there is a wonderful catch all that has won many a dispute, that I would use if I had a deposit refund refused

It's not caveat emptor, but that is good enough for forum readers to be aware of. Forgive the pun.

The best advise I can give you is name the dealers in public. None of them deserve to be in the business of selling caravans to members of the public if they employ such methods, regardless of silly legislation.

There was a TV humiliation of such a trader only this past fortnight, who was using dodgy practices at 'trade shows' and refusing refunds. Google Hampshire Garden Furniture. Direct Action in advance is a better defence tbh.

 

[KeefySher]

Where I deviate from KeefySher's perspective is regards the CRA offering direct recourse to the manufacturer. All references in teh CRA still relate to the contract between the seller and the customer. As far as I am aware, none of the major caravan manufacturers sell new caravans direct to the public.

With regards to shows such as the caravan exhibitions, The stands at the show are usually paid for by the manufacturer, the items on display are considered to be samples to be viewed to enable prospective customers to make an informed choice about which one to choose. It's like a 3D catalogue. If you place an order, it will be with the company who issues the paper work, which in most cases is a dealer not the manufacturer.

As far as I have seen, the CRA does not provide any direct recourse to the manufacturer unless the contract directly involves them.

The CRA does allow recourse to the manufacturer for all goods other than motor cars. As you rightly say, the item at the trade show is a sample and forms part of the 'offer to sell', which due to the method employed by the manufacturer is party to the contract underpinning the purchase. It gets expensive and complicated, best to name and shame

 

[Surfer]

Unfortunately none of the above relates to a purchase at a trade show especially as the Distance Selling Regulations have been superceded by the Consumer Rights Act 2015. The regulations do make reference to the trade shows, but are not very clear. Have you studied the CRA 2015?
Yes the 10% was a figure plucked out of the air as deposits seem to range from about £100 right through to £1000 or more.

Are the reported refusal of deposit return also plucked from the air?

'Not very clear' is then the downfall of the CRA2015. I have studied Contract Law and there is a wonderful catch all that has won many a dispute, that I would use if I had a deposit refund refused

It's not caveat emptor, but that is good enough for forum readers to be aware of. Forgive the pun.

The best advise I can give you is name the dealers in public. None of them deserve to be in the business of selling caravans to members of the public if they employ such methods, regardless of silly legislation.

There was a TV humiliation of such a trader only this past fortnight, who was using dodgy practices at 'trade shows' and refusing refunds. Google Hampshire Garden Furniture. Direct Action in advance is a better defence tbh.

I have to agree that such traders should not be in business. The dealership in question is a large dealership however we can name them except to think about a wandering home. The post is on the ukcampsite forum. As for only seeing a sample that is covered under Section 14 of the CRA so cannot use that to opt out.
BTW last year by the entrance to each hall at the NEC was a large sign apparently sanctioned by the Solihull Trading Standards who cover the NEC stating that purchases at the NEC are not covered by the CRA or DSR. Some who visited the show last year may remember the signs.
BTW we do not ourselves have any issue with deposit and purchases at the NEC.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The CRA does allow recourse to the manufacturer for all goods other than motor cars....

I have not seen any reference in the documentation to direct recourse to manufacturers, please can you enlighten us?

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

BTW last year by the entrance to each hall at the NEC was a large sign apparently sanctioned by the Solihull Trading Standards who cover the NEC stating that purchases at the NEC are not covered by the CRA or DSR.

???? Surely you must be covered?

 

[Surfer]

BTW last year by the entrance to each hall at the NEC was a large sign apparently sanctioned by the Solihull Trading Standards who cover the NEC stating that purchases at the NEC are not covered by the CRA or DSR.

???? Surely you must be covered?

Sorry I phrased that badly. Not covered by DSR in the CRA. Purchases would be regarded as buying on the dealer's premises therefore no right to cancel. Somehow I think they got it wrong, but need clarification as per regulations.

 

[Raywood]

Unfortunately none of the above relates to a purchase at a trade show especially as the Distance Selling Regulations have been superceded by the Consumer Rights Act 2015. The regulations do make reference to the trade shows, but are not very clear. Have you studied the CRA 2015?
Yes the 10% was a figure plucked out of the air as deposits seem to range from about £100 right through to £1000 or more.

Are the reported refusal of deposit return also plucked from the air?

'Not very clear' is then the downfall of the CRA2015. I have studied Contract Law and there is a wonderful catch all that has won many a dispute, that I would use if I had a deposit refund refused

It's not caveat emptor, but that is good enough for forum readers to be aware of. Forgive the pun.

The best advise I can give you is name the dealers in public. None of them deserve to be in the business of selling caravans to members of the public if they employ such methods, regardless of silly legislation.

There was a TV humiliation of such a trader only this past fortnight, who was using dodgy practices at 'trade shows' and refusing refunds. Google Hampshire Garden Furniture. Direct Action in advance is a better defence tbh.

I have to agree that such traders should not be in business. The dealership in question is a large dealership however we can name them except to think about a wandering home. The post is on the ukcampsite forum. As for only seeing a sample that is covered under Section 14 of the CRA so cannot use that to opt out.
BTW last year by the entrance to each hall at the NEC was a large sign apparently sanctioned by the Solihull Trading Standards who cover the NEC stating that purchases at the NEC are not covered by the CRA or DSR. Some who visited the show last year may remember the signs.
BTW we do not ourselves have any issue with deposit and purchases at the NEC.

The effectiveness of the notice would depend on its size and prominence. If it was not blatantly obvious to people entering the hall then it would be unenforceable and even then does that constitute a legal contract. My feeling is the idea is flawed and it would have been necessary to put this in the contract terms and advise the purchaser to make it effective but it is by no means clear.
For what it costs i suspect that anyone raising a small claims action would get their money back on a £500 deposit as it would cost the dealer more to defend it than pay it, but that is not guaranteed.

 

[Dustydog]

Another perspective
Who says the NEC is a Trade Show?
Trade shows are usually put on by manufacturers for the benefit of their wholesalers, retailers and component suppliers.
Generally the public are not admitted. Terms of purchase at these shows are in Law usually governed by one parties purchase order terms and or by the seller's sales terms. Thus any disputes will be settled within the parties terms of business.
IMO and I suspect a Court of Law will not consider The NEC caravan show is a Trade Show per se but an open invitation to the general public to both view and purchase the goods on display.
I understand that whilst the manufacturer pays for the exhibition space there are hidden commercial / financial agreements between the dealer and manufacturer.

Do you really think the dealer is going there for fun??

The Contract for purchase will be on the dealer's normal order form. Note. No dealer shows any address other than their usual trading address.
Any attempt by the NEC, manufacturer or dealer to unfairly modify a customers Common Law Rights and those of a Statutory Instrument (CRA) will lose hands down in any English or Welsh Court.Of hand I cw n's speak for Scotland but assume similar protections are available.
In conclusion I am confident Surfer has nothing to worry about . If he or anyone else decides to cancel a show order they will get their money back.
Well I believe so. If I am wrong then it is beyond me how an innocent member ofthe public can be denied the full protection of the CRA.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think the notice put up at the entrance to the halls about Solihull Trading Standards may by to advise consumers that any problems with any purchase or contract established at the show does not fall under Solihull Trading Standards area remit. If a problem ensues the consumer should take the matter up with Trading Standards Organisation that covers the traders business address. No retailer can restrict the rights of a consumer to invoke the terms of the CRA if a problem arises with a retail transaction.

I have not seen or heard anything other than Surfer's and KeefySher's comments that suggest a purchase made or an order made at a caravan show is different in any way to a normal retail contract between the retailer and the consumer (and of course any finance house if credit is used)

The question about "do the distance selling regulations apply" (Now homologated into the CRA) is slightly unclear but I suspect that as the contract was struck away from the seller's normal premises and the goods in the contract are not available to be viewed by the customer, then in my view there would be a case to consider the DSR does apply.

I am intrigued by KeefySher's comment that the CRA now gives consumers rights against the manufacture because as it stands there is no contractual obligation between the consumer and the manufacturer, and I await his evidence with interest.

 

[Dustydog]

That's spot on Prof.
A Judge would laugh at such a notice that seeks to modify both Contract Law and Statutory instruments. In fact I'd go even further and question the validity of the Local Trading Standards notice if indeed it was them who erected the signs.
The fact remains in my mind the CRA and it's predecessor SoGA are there to protect the consumer from the seller .In the event ( unlikely) the manufacturer sold direct then yes the CRA will apply but not both dealer snow manufacturer.
As the Prof knows words mean everything and I believe we must call the dealer the Seller. Hopefully any misinterpretations will then be avoided.

 

[ProfJohnL]

KeefySher

Are you there?

If you can please enlighten us on how the CRA now gives consumes rights against anyone other than the seller ? If this is actually true then it opens up a whole new ball game for caravanners who have faulty caravans.

Please respond.

 

[Raywood]

I do believe the DSA would apply to purchases at shows but I am not aware of any cases being heard on this. As you are looking ar deposits of usually £500 or so there is simply not enough involved for costly litigation. If you do raise an action then it is going to be in the small claims court annd theses are not going to be reported so we simply do not know if any have taken place there.
For what it would cost to defend the case I think most dealers would simply pay up.