Covid19 - How Can This Be Allowed To Happen.

[Johnb]

Not intended as a political thread.

I have, like everyone else, my personal views on the pandemic and this post is NOT intended to stir up controversy but to point out something that, I hope, all of us would decry.

This morning I popped into the docs. for a routine blood test/blood pressure (122/80 Yay!) and had a few minutes chatting with the nurse.

We spoke of holidays and the effect of the pandemic on personal plans (We have a tunnel booked for Monday but it seems increasingly unlikely that France will be "open for business" by then).

The nurse should have been abroad last week but the holiday was cancelled and instead she, hubby and kids went to Whitby.

The single scary thing she pointed out was that Amusement Arcades were full of people handling money and taking no social distancing measures. She didn't say if they were wearing masks but something tells me probably not.

Now if responsible restaurants/stores and the like can put safeguarding measures into place, why on earth can't amusement Arcades in Whitby?

Again not wanting to be controversial but if this situation is happening in Whitby it scares me to think how resorts that specialise in the arcade type of entertainment are acting.

Maybe there's not a lot any of us can say except, perhaps, to consider the actions of New Zealand when after 100 days with no new cases suddenly 4 appear. Incredible instant response that, I hope, will stop the outbreak in the bud.

I suspect not so many Amusement Arcades will be operating as those in Whitby are according a my nurse.

Edit.

Ooohps No idea why n i p is starred out!

 

[Buckman]

On Sky News this morning apparently only 1 in 10 pubs in Manchester are doing the track and trace. One person they ask how long the person is going to be there and if less than 15 minutes they do not bother. Surely it only takes seconds to pick up the virus from an infected person?

 

[Damian]

Ooohps No idea why n i p is starred out!

It has been starred out by the automatic system that removes potential bad or racist language.

Whilst I know what you mean and the context it is in, the auto thing does not and thinks you are making a racist or obnoxious reference to a race of people...

I have changed the "offending" word to one the auto likes.

 

[Johnb]

It has been starred out by the automatic system that removes potential bad or racist language.

Whilst I know what you mean and the context it is in, the auto thing does not and thinks you are making a racist or obnoxious reference to a race of people...

I have changed the "offending" word to one the auto likes.

Thanks Damian. Obviously I presumed that to be the case but didn't immediately think of that particular word as potentially offensive when, yes, of course it can be in the wrong context.

 

[Johnb]

On Sky News this morning apparently only 1 in 10 pubs in Manchester are doing the track and trace. One person they ask how long the person is going to be there and if less than 15 minutes they do not bother. Surely it only takes seconds to pick up the virus from an infected person?

I agree but I've seen the 15 minute delay elsewhere. I can't remember where but for sure it's not just something Manchester pubs have made up.
Maybe what's more telling is that so few are making the effort. I'm now presuming that track and trace is up and operating as it should. Bottom line is that however effective or not the "World Leading" system is surely anything is better than nothing.

 

[Buckman]

I agree but I've seen the 15 minute delay elsewhere. I can't remember where but for sure it's not just something Manchester pubs have made up.
Maybe what's more telling is that so few are making the effort. I'm now presuming that track and trace is up and operating as it should. Bottom line is that however effective or not the "World Leading" system is surely anything is better than nothing.

As said you do not have to be in the company of an infected person for 15 or more minutes before you get infected so don't understand this 15 minute grace period?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I have previously suggested the C19 virus presented new and unique challenges, and that is why there have been so many different approaches to managing the pandemic. I still believe we do not know enough about this pathogen to have a rock solid consistent world wide approach to deal with it.

The wider medical effects of the virus are far wider than is perhaps is common knowledge, It's morbidity rate (%) is of course devastating but perhaps is not as high as some might think, but the issue is how how many victims it can infect, and that is theoretically the whole 6.7B population of the world. Until we have an effective vaccine, or pharmaceuticals to reduce its dire effects, the only solution is to avoid contracting it.

Here in the UK we are anything but United having different approaches set by devolved governments in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Each government has some widely differing details, Some differences can be explained by local conditions. Undoubtedly there is some political bent involved, but we are asked to believe the matters have been driven by scientific advice, so I suspect we would have seen similar decisions regardless of which party held power.

There is a view that our leaders should have looked around to see how other countries were managing and perhaps should have copied them. I fully agree that best practice is worth copying, but the problem is with this pandemic at the time it was necessary to take some decisions the actions taken elsewhere may not have shown which was better or worse, and there may well be local differences that would make some interventions less effective

It's very easy with the benefit of hind sight to find fault with these approaches, but when the decisions were made they didn't have the benefit of learned knowledge we now have

It will be right and proper for a full inquiry to be undertaken, not to find fault and blame, but to understand where we might have done better, and to see if we need to make any changes to our procedures to make us more effective if C19 returns, or if there are any generic improvements that should be made to counter other pandemics. For example I would strongly suggest that when the Nightingale hospitals are dismantled, its done carefully and they are stored, so if necessary they can quickly be reinstated.

When it comes to what the public should be doing, in England the instructions are so fragmented it makes very difficult to know what you are supposed to be doing one step to the next.

I saw this recently

Next weeks leaked Covid guidance. You cant meet with another person from outside your family with an A or an R in their name unless its a Wednesday . Family member's are ok unless its the third Monday after Pancake Tuesday. People under 5 foot 11 aren't allowed to to go to a pub unless they have brown hair. Cat owners are exempt from the above unless the cat is ginger. Obviously

A parody obviously but it does seem we have a myriad of exceptions which in some cases defies logic.

Non of this excuses adults and teenagers for being selfish and not taking sensible precautions everywhere. Some say you should use "common sense" But look where that gets you in pubs, beaches, and apparently amusement arcades.

 

[Damian]

I'm now presuming that track and trace is up and operating as it should.

No it is not, it is a shambles.
A recent analysis showed that the NHS Track and Trace were only managing to contact ONE person a month !!!

 

[Jcloughie]

No it is not, it is a shambles.
A recent analysis showed that the NHS Track and Trace were only managing to contact ONE person a month !!!

It would be interesting to see that analysis. Official stats differby a few thousand percent.

• 19,150 people were identified as coming into close contact with someone who has tested positive in week 9. Of these, 72.4% were reached and asked to self-isolate, a decrease from 76.2% in the previous week
• the overall percentage of contacts reached has been declining since Test and Trace began, primarily due to the reduction in contacts relating to local outbreaks (complex cases), as these are managed by local health protection teams and have a higher success rate than those dealt with by contact tracers

From here.

John

 

[otherclive]

I have previously suggested the C19 virus presented new and unique challenges, and that is why there have been so many different approaches to managing the pandemic. I still believe we do not know enough about this pathogen to have a rock solid consistent world wide approach to deal with it.

The wider medical effects of the virus are far wider than is perhaps is common knowledge, It's morbidity rate (%) is of course devastating but perhaps is not as high as some might think, but the issue is how how many victims it can infect, and that is theoretically the whole 6.7B population of the world. Until we have an effective vaccine, or pharmaceuticals to reduce its dire effects, the only solution is to avoid contracting it.

Here in the UK we are anything but United having different approaches set by devolved governments in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Each government has some widely differing details, Some differences can be explained by local conditions. Undoubtedly there is some political bent involved, but we are asked to believe the matters have been driven by scientific advice, so I suspect we would have seen similar decisions regardless of which party held power.

There is a view that our leaders should have looked around to see how other countries were managing and perhaps should have copied them. I fully agree that best practice is worth copying, but the problem is with this pandemic at the time it was necessary to take some decisions the actions taken elsewhere may not have shown which was better or worse, and there may well be local differences that would make some interventions less effective

It's very easy with the benefit of hind sight to find fault with these approaches, but when the decisions were made they didn't have the benefit of learned knowledge we now have

It will be right and proper for a full inquiry to be undertaken, not to find fault and blame, but to understand where we might have done better, and to see if we need to make any changes to our procedures to make us more effective if C19 returns, or if there are any generic improvements that should be made to counter other pandemics. For example I would strongly suggest that when the Nightingale hospitals are dismantled, its done carefully and they are stored, so if necessary they can quickly be reinstated.

When it comes to what the public should be doing, in England the instructions are so fragmented it makes very difficult to know what you are supposed to be doing one step to the next.

I saw this recently

Next weeks leaked Covid guidance. You cant meet with another person from outside your family with an A or an R in their name unless its a Wednesday . Family member's are ok unless its the third Monday after Pancake Tuesday. People under 5 foot 11 aren't allowed to to go to a pub unless they have brown hair. Cat owners are exempt from the above unless the cat is ginger. Obviously

A parody obviously but it does seem we have a myriad of exceptions which in some cases defies logic.

Non of this excuses adults and teenagers for being selfish and not taking sensible precautions everywhere. Some say you should use "common sense" But look where that gets you in pubs, beaches, and apparently amusement arcades.

Prof
As of last week I still should not have gone into our sons house in South Wales and certainly no overnight stay. Yet he could have come to our home and stayed. His partners family from Merthyr could go inside and stay overnight. United what.......?

 

[Beachball]

At our Doctors you have to ring up on the day this morning and make sure you are wearing a Mask for your appointment got to have this injection every 12 weeks and while i was there someone walk in with no mask . he was soon escorted from the building i sometimes feel some people are not taking this virus serious .

 

[Johnb]

No it is not, it is a shambles.
A recent analysis showed that the NHS Track and Trace were only managing to contact ONE person a month !!!

Lol I only said I was "presuming". After all it's a "World Class" system we were told.

 

[otherclive]

Lol I only said I was "presuming". After all it's a "World Class" system we were told.

It may not be the World Class System we were promised but I just cannot conceive of the accuracy of “ One contact in a month”. Perhaps some of the Track and Trace staff did not have much to do in the early days but “ One contact in a month” is pure fake news that even DJT would be proud if.

The fact that 6000 staff are being laid off to enable more balance between NHS track and trace and LA contact tracing teams seems to me that the overall system is dynamic and making progress.
Looking at UK infection rates per 100000 this country is doing better than many other EU ones and only 50% of France. Despite the dire predictions arising from BLM, Raves, Bournemouth and pubs. I don’t underestimate the challenge ahead and that pressure needs to be maintained if only to allow schools to reopen and education to go ahead. But please no more fake reports that are patently misleading.

 

[Beachball]

It may not be the World Class System we were promised but I just cannot conceive of the accuracy of “ One contact in a month”. Perhaps some of the Track and Trace staff did not have much to do in the early days but “ One contact in a month” is pure fake news that even DJT would be proud if.

The fact that 6000 staff are being laid off to enable more balance between NHS track and trace and LA contact tracing teams seems to me that the overall system is dynamic and making progress.
Looking at UK infection rates per 100000 this country is doing better than many other EU ones and only 50% of France. Despite the dire predictions arising from BLM, Raves, Bournemouth and pubs. I don’t underestimate the challenge ahead and that pressure needs to be maintained if only to allow schools to reopen and education to go ahead. But please no more fake reports that are patently misleading.

i also agree with you otherclive no more fake reports would be a blessing

 

[Guzzilazz]

The 15 minutes comes from the original 2 metre distancing justification. It was said that if you were in contact with an infected person, at 2m distance, it takes 15m to be infected... at 1m (relying on my unreliable memory) it takes 6 minutes.

 

[Buckman]

At our Doctors you have to ring up on the day this morning and make sure you are wearing a Mask for your appointment got to have this injection every 12 weeks and while i was there someone walk in with no mask . he was soon escorted from the building i sometimes feel some people are not taking this virus serious .

We cannot get a physical appointment to see our doctor as it is all down over the phone. Only thing they are doing is blood tests.

 

[ProfJohnL]

We cannot get a physical appointment to see our doctor as it is all down over the phone. Only thing they are doing is blood tests.

I serve on our surgeries Patient Participation Group, and whilst our meetings have been cancelled due to C19, we have continued to receive information and we have held some Microsoft Teams meetings with other local PPG's.

If I understand it correctly, the Government told GP surgeries to close their doors for normal face to face consultations, and to introduce a triage system where the initial appointment will be by phone or some other form of remote communications. If as a result of that appointment, if the GP needs to investigate further by a physically seeing the patient then an appointment will be made and you will see a GP face to face. Depending on local arrangements, the GP you see may not be your own, and it might be at a different surgery.

These are temporary arrangements, and when the pandemic is over, surgeries will move back to their more traditional roles as set out in their contracts with your local Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG).

However several surgeries have already indicated some of the C19 lockdown procedures have actually worked very well, and will be seeking to revise their contracts with their CCG's to allow them to continue to use some lockdown procedures.

Similarly hospitals are reviewing how they interact with outpatients especially on follow up appointments. In many cases and especially when a patient is just being regularly monitored for an acute condition or is approaching the end of course of treatment, both time and money (for both the patient and the hospital) may be saved by conducting the appointment over the phone. This will not apply to all disciplines.

Ironically just as I was writing this, the QE hospital in Birmingham has just rung up to do just this for my wife.

 

[Buckman]

I serve on our surgeries Patient Participation Group, and whilst our meetings have been cancelled due to C19, we have continued to receive information and we have held some Microsoft Teams meetings with other local PPG's.

If I understand it correctly, the Government told GP surgeries to close their doors for normal face to face consultations, and to introduce a triage system where the initial appointment will be by phone or some other form of remote communications. If as a result of that appointment, if the GP needs to investigate further by a physically seeing the patient then an appointment will be made and you will see a GP face to face. Depending on local arrangements, the GP you see may not be your own, and it might be at a different surgery.

These are temporary arrangements, and when the pandemic is over, surgeries will move back to their more traditional roles as set out in their contracts with your local Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG).

However several surgeries have already indicated some of the C19 lockdown procedures have actually worked very well, and will be seeking to revise their contracts with their CCG's to allow them to continue to use some lockdown procedures.

Similarly hospitals are reviewing how they interact with outpatients especially on follow up appointments. In many cases and especially when a patient is just being regularly monitored for an acute condition or is approaching the end of course of treatment, both time and money (for both the patient and the hospital) may be saved by conducting the appointment over the phone. This will not apply to all disciplines.

Ironically just as I was writing this, the QE hospital in Birmingham has just rung up to do just this for my wife.

A very good post highlighting various issues. I had to send pictures of my issue as I am very worried about it and was told it is nothing to worry about. Although I am not a doctor I feel I have to disagree as the symptoms indicate another more severe issue which could have more severe consequences in later life if not dealt with now.
I do understand the need for doctors to be careful, but the problem is that issues are being put on the back burner with the result there may be unnecessary deaths. I hasten to add probably not in my case but it still requires attention soon.

 

[Raywood]

Even the ones supposed to be monitoring us do not abey the rules, so what chance have the rest of us got.

 

[ProfJohnL]

A very good post highlighting various issues. I had to send pictures of my issue as I am very worried about it and was told it is nothing to worry about. Although I am not a doctor I feel I have to disagree as the symptoms indicate another more severe issue which could have more severe consequences in later life if not dealt with now.
I do understand the need for doctors to be careful, but the problem is that issues are being put on the back burner with the result there may be unnecessary deaths. I hasten to add probably not in my case but it still requires attention soon.

At our last MS Teams meeting our local CCG told us that whilst during the peak of the pandemic the hospitals did effectively close to non urgent cases, they were still open for cases that could not wait. Obviously that included emergency departments, but also most Chemo and Dialysis departments were also open, but the consultants were asked to minimise patient contact and to delay treatments where the clinical risk was low. Also a substantial number of consultants had been asked to work on the C19 front-line, preventing them from overseeing some of the routine treatments.

We were also told the Hospitals were now actively working on designating areas within their buildings as Covid and Covid Free so as many of the services as possible can operate and assure patients of their safety from cross infection with C19.

You would need to check with your own local NHS to ascertain the status of the services in your area, but we were being told the NHS is open. We were also told the NHS is preparing for a second wave of C19, hopefully it wont arise or be as severe as the first. It will depend on the good sense of the wider public following effective precautionary practices, but only time will tell

On another related topic, One of the authorities now estimates about 3.5Million UK residents have been infected with C19 and now have some anti-bodies. By my calculation that still leaves 63 Million UK people who are potential victims!

The report also stressed they still don't know if having anti-bodies actually provides any protection against reinfection... There is still a vast amount we do not know about this virus, and until there is certainty about a vaccine or therapies that can relieve the most serious effects of the infection, we have a large population at risk, and we should be doing all we can to prevent the spread of C19

 

[otherclive]

View attachment 661


Even the ones supposed to be monitoring us do not abey the rules, so what chance have the rest of us got.

Absolutely priceless !!

 

[Johnb]

Absolutely priceless !!

Don't even see a mask?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Don't even see a mask?

To be fair we don't know when this picture was taken, it might have been before masks were obligatory, But regardless its a another Dominic Cummins moment!

 

[otherclive]

Don't even see a mask?

Poor bloke was probably confused by HMG contradictory messages on Pret
and takeaways 😂

 

[Beachball]

i was told on Wednesday we need a full blood count (Blood Test) So started ringing the doctors at 8am this morning kept redialing it took 35 goes finally got through book appointment for 9am sat waiting again in my wheelchair with my mask on two people came in with face masks they were not 2m apart ..also they were told stand here one of than was resting his arms on the counter the healthcare assitant had to come and wipe it down . like i said the other day they are are not taking Covid 19 serious