Dillema

[Parksy]

My friend recently advertised his caravan for sale on a well known free advertising website.

His caravan was advertised at £7650 including the awning and all accessories necessary to set up and use the caravan.

A potential buyer made contact, travelled to the seasonal pitch that my friends have and had a look at the caravan.

I'm told that the buyer commented on how well the caravan had been looked after, my friend showed the paperwork for the caravan and established proof of ownership, pointed out that the caravan hadn't been serviced and showed the buyer a couple of dinks in the side of the caravan.

The buyer replied that the lack of service history wasn't a problem and he wasn't worried about the slight dinks according to my friend and his O/H who was there during the sale.

My friend and his o/h then sat outside in the sunshine and left the buyer and his wife inside to have a good look round. There was no time limit, my friend was staying in the caravan over that weekend.

After 15 minutes or so the buyer came back outside and agreed to buy the caravan. He hadn't got all of the money so my friend agreed to accept a deposit and keep the caravan until the buyer had the full amount.

A week later the buyer returned, paid the agreed price (£7200 without the awning) and took the caravan.

The next day my friend had a telephone call from the buyer claiming that he had noticed mould on the caravan curtains and that he'd had 'someone' round to look at it and damp had been found.

My friend replied that the damp was news to him but the buyer said that he wanted his money back.

The next day my friend had another phone call claiming that there was a lot of damp in the caravan, another person who had 'looked at' the caravan apparently lifted the window rubber and said that the wood was 'rotten'.

My friend is bemused by all of this, he's owned the caravan for just over two years it's had one previous owner and it has always been on a seasonal pitch. He says that he's never noticed any damp and has had no problems with the caravan.

The buyer has apparently since phoned to say that he intends to take my friend to court and that he is 'well within his rights' to claim his money back as well as costs.

Knowing that I have access to the internet and use caravan forums my friend has asked me for advice about what to do.

On one hand my friend hasn't set out to defraud or cheat anybody, he sold his caravan in good faith offered or implied no guarantee but he feels sorry that the buyer isn't happy.

On the other hand he kept the caravan for a week and refused other offers, the guy's attitude has put my friends back up because he was given more than ample opportunity to fully inspect the caravan and the buyer is (allegedly)claiming that my friend knew about this damp while my friend isn't convinced that this damp exists, at least to the extent that is being alleged.

Where were these 'experts' who looked at the caravan when the transaction was taking place?

Surely these people who claim to have found damp could have accompanied the buyer before he parted with any money, they had at least a week between the deposit and the full amount being paid.

I've pointed out to my friend that if the case does go to court as far as I'm aware the principle of Caveat Emptor applies provided that the caravan was described accurately.

Any thoughts or comments anyone? I'll be seeing my friend tomorrow evening and we will discuss the situation over a pint.

 

[Martin24]

I'm with you on caveat emptor amd that ample time was allowed to inspect the van. Assuming the van was sold as seen and a receipt was issued stating this then your friend should be okay. I would however suggest that he has a quiet word with his solicitor just to put his mind at rest.

 

[DavidKlyne]

I am not sure that there is any redress for a private sale. I wonder how the purchaser would fair if he used the Small Claim Court? I suppose your friend will have to decide how much hassle he is prepared to take. I suppose he could engage a caravan dealer to go out and inspect the van. The risk here is that if they find a lot of damp then it rather proves the buyers point. Perhaps he should go and inspect the van and allow the buyer to point out the problems. If there is a serious problem then I expect the van was over valued and perhaps a reduction in price might solve the problem. Alternatively he could just say sorry it was sold as seen and I gave you ample opportunity to inspect the van and had you asked I would have allowed a third party inspection.

David

David

 

[Dustydog]

That's a fair old script Parksy. Are sure it's not you? LOL.

The Small Claims Court limit is

 

[ValA.]

It's hard to know what to do here - if the van hasn't been serviced then we all know that damp can appear anywhere, un-noticed so the buyer could be right and the van could have problems. If he's genuine, then he's going to be gutted that the van is damp - we've all seen the postings on here from buyers in this sort of scenario. However, if he posted on here after the event, he'd probably get the advice that he should have got someone 'qualified' to have a look around it before paying out - and 'buyer beware' quotes.

On the other hand he may just be trying it on to get a huge reduction in the price. Can your friend assess what might happen if he were to offer to refund the purchase price? That might indicate whether the buyer actually wants to keep the van but just reduce the price paid - or whether he is actually genuine in having bought a van with a problem.

 

[Soozeeg]

LOL Dusty, I know which friend Parksy's talking about, and it is definitely his friend's van and not his ;o).....besides, I know Parksy and his lovely OH adore their van and wouldn't dream of selling it (would you, Steve!).

Sounds to me like the guy just doesn't want the van anymore, for whatever reason, and is trying to wriggle out of it. Perhaps he's seen another he prefers! Good advice from Dusty above, I think. If your pal has got legal cover, could he perhaps explain the situation to a legal bod and get them to write a suitable letter to the buyer? If he doesn't have legal cover, I believe some solicitors will offer a free 30 minute first appointment, so he could perhaps get some legal advice that way.

Receiving a solicitor's letter on behalf of your friend may just frighten the guy off and/or test to see how serious he is....after all, he'd have to be pretty certain of his case if he intends to take your friend to court!

 

[Steve L]

Hi Steve.

Clearly your friend went out of his way to honestly offer the van for sale and declared the lack of service history and even pointed out obnious damage which would of been a price haggle lever.

The responability rest's with the prospective buyer to examine and satisfy himself on the day, that the purchase is acceptable.

As pointed out here, there is a ceiling of

 

[Pat_374304630]

Hi Parksy,

What a palava! Reading your topic has reinforced my resolve not to sell my van privately. As for your dilema, going to the citizens advice bureau is good advice, as Steve has stated.

 

[Parksy]

Thanks ladies and gentlemen, all of the advice is very good and most welcome.

Obviously I can't provide too many details because my friend may have to go to court but no, it's not me thank goodness.

We own a 2008 Abbey 620 which we love, as Sue (who has been in it and no doubt will again) said, we wouldn't part with ours.

My friend bought the caravan, a 2005 Bailey, from people in Wales just over 2 years ago and I mentioned to him that some models have had problems with panels cracking, damp etc and I advised him to have the caravan serviced regularly to maintain the transferable warranty.

For whatever reason my friend didn't have the caravan serviced, perhaps because it never went anywhere because of the seasonal pitch.

The buyer claims (allegedly) that my friend knew that the caravan was damp beforehand and is reportedly saying that 'fresh mastic' has been found but my friend strenuously denies this.

When the money was paid my friend gave a receipt but he says that he didn't write 'sold as seen' on it, just 'received

 

[PhilFraeHowMill]

Hi Parksy, Tell your friend to call his local Trading Standards office, they will tell him straight away what his position is, and it`s free.

 

[owenk]

Hi Parksy,

Assuming your friend is not a trader, then the buyers have little in the way of rights. Most of our consumer rights only apply when we buy from traders.

Private sellers are however liable for any descriptions thay apply to goods they sell. I doubt your friend would have said anything like "It's damp free", but he may have used terms like "good condition". Although what constitutes "good condition" for a secondhand caravan would be an interesting debate.

I think most of us would accept that even a one year old outfit would be showing some degree of "fair wear and tear" if it has had any substantial amount of use.

I would suggest that if this goes any further, that you friend requests to examine the listed faults himself (with a independant witness - ie not just his OH) - if it has only been a short while since the sale it would be hard to artifically produce mould for example.

As already mentioned

 

[Parksy]

7K is certainly a lot of money and if I'd been unlucky enough to spend that amount on a caravan that turned out to be faulty or affected by damp I'd seek whatever redress was available to me.

From the advice given here I'd think that my friend needs to consider the possibility of the caravan being faulty i.e. damp and decide on a course of action if this turns out to be the case.

Because the buyer complained the day after completing the purchase I think that there may be a possibility of a county court action by the buyer succeeding if the caravan proves to be damp.

If my friend is intent on sticking to his guns (I will know more after tonight) he will do as Dusty Dog advised and contact a solicitor then keep quiet to see what happens.

Another issue is the degree of competence or qualification of those who advised the buyer after the sale was completed.

If it was simply some mate with a cheapo damp meter from Fleabay then why should anybody believe the 'damp' readings?

It would be fair to have a properly conducted inspection by a competent caravan engineer but as far as my friend is concerned the buyer could have done this before he bought the caravan so my friend is under no obligation to agree to any of this is he?

 

[Dustydog]

Parksy

Do you know if the purchaser was a decent sort?

It may be prudent for your friend to appoint an independent caravan engineer, like Damian for a full independent damp test.

He could offer this facility to the purchaser, as a joint venture, each party bearing 50% of the cost, with each party being bound by the findings.

A kind of arbitration if you like.

Thus your friend may get away safe or he may have to

1) pay for the repairs

2) Offer a partial negotiated refund ie lowering the original sale value.

3) Take the Bailey back and refund in full

Alternatively do nothing as discussed here this morning, but do consult a legal expert.

Evidence is the key thing missing here at the moment.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[Parksy]

Hi Dustydog

I never met the purchaser but from what I've been told he is just an ordinary working man who had hoped to upgrade to a more modern caravan.

What seems to have raised my mates hackles a bit has been the attitude shown since because my friend says that he's been accused of knowingly selling a damp caravan which is not the case.

Either way I think that my friend will need to establish the truth behind the statement that the caravan is damp but I think that he might be better off waiting to find out exactly who is saying that the caravan is damp.

It might simply be an acquaintance of the buyer with his own caravan to sell.

 

[Clive-Cardiff]

One minor point appears to me. The buyer should have had a damp test prior to purchase and because he would be unlikely to actualy see evidence of the damp.

The mould however would be evident to anyone. The buyer should have noticed this himself.

The presence of mould could be taken as evidence that your friend had not tried to cover up the damp problem.

 

[Clive-Cardiff]

One minor point appears to me. The buyer should have had a damp test prior to purchase and because he would be unlikely to actualy see evidence of the damp.

The mould however would be evident to anyone. The buyer should have noticed this himself.

The presence of mould could be taken as evidence that your friend had not tried to cover up the damp problem.

Sorry typo - makes more sense delete the "and" in the first para.

 

[Parksy]

I hadn't thought of that Clive, my friend said before that he hadn't noticed any mould but I don't suppose he's ever really looked for any.

The point about the evidence showing that my friend knew nothing about any damp is a very good one and could form the basis of a 'defence'.

Thanks

 

[LMH]

Hi

I don't think the buyer has a leg to stand on in this private sale. Did you say the buyer was upgrading? meaning he'd already had a caravan? If so, he's not a total newbie and if he was prepared to shell out on over 7K, I would have thought he'd have taken a properly qualified expert such as a caravan servicing engineer.

Your point about a cheap damp meter is true along with the fact the person who has told him it's got a lot of damp could just be anyone, not a properly qualified specialist.

I'm no expert but I don't think your friend has to refund the money at all.

Something similar happened to me. Don't laugh, this is true. About 20 years ago, I put my restored classic car up for sale. In the ad, I described it accurately and said it needed a new clutch.

Several people came to view it and have a drive. Then numpty came along. I explained about the clutch and said I'd phoned several garages, given the model and age of vehicle and obtained verbal quotes for a new clutch. I said I was prepared to take the cost of the clutch and fitting off the for sale price. He took it for a test drive and everything was rosy.

He said he wanted the car. He asked if I would take a bankers draft (his building society was the same one I used). I phoned the building society and checked that the draft was genuine and they told me it was and would clear instantly.

Anyway, off he went in the car. I popped to the building society, paid it in, no probs. I then went out for several hours. (This was in the days before everyone had mobiles).

Imagine my surprise when pulling up outside my house, seeing my old car there.

I opened the front door to find my extremely exasperated husband with this bloke, the wife and four small and noisy/unruly children in my house.

It turns out the plonker had taken the car to his friend 'who is a mechanic' and the car needed a new clutch. Errm, yes, that's correct.

Anyway, long story, unfotunately, instead of telling plonker and his tribe to come back later, they'd been in our house for about four hours waiting for me to come back.

I was bloody furious. I said that I was under no obligation to refund this person. He accepted that. Anyway, I said I would refund the money, in my own time, by bankers cheque from the same building society minus

 

[Parksy]

Update:

Thanks to all who replied and offered advice but the situation is now resolved!

My mate has been worrying about the situation and isn't a hard hearted person, the buyer has a child and my mate felt sorry that he was dissatisfied with the caravan for whatever reason.

I don't know all of the details yet but he just told me on the phone that he's decided to have the caravan back and refund the guys money.

My mate will take his chances with a part ex at Chichester Caravans when he collects his new Olympus, he says that it's less hassle and he didn't fancy having all of this hanging over him.

He's asked me to forward his thanks for the advice and I'm glad that he's sorted it out without rancour.

He still owes me a pint later though, and I will raise my glass to you all :0)

Cheers!

 

[Dustydog]

Sorted! Glad he's got the worry off his mind; not pleasant even for a dog like me. LOL

PArksy,

May I politely suggest your mate gives the caravan a dam good clean and scrub, washes mildew curtains and give a good ventilate.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Parksy,

Sorry I didn't have the opportunity to see and respond to this posting before the dust had settled.

I think all the pertinent points had already been made by others - but just in case;.

'Caveat emptor' - 'Buyer beware' definitely applies here. Before the buyer agrees to purchase or exchange on any second-hand goods, they must make all efforts to ensure the goods are what they want, and in the conditions they wish. It is tacitly implied that as soon as the nod or handshake is made to agree the transaction, that the buyer is satisfied in all respects about what they are agreeing to.

The seller is not obliged to describe all the faults of that any goods have, but what they do say must be accurate and honest. So for example you cannot describe goods as in "mint condition", if any parts do not function properly or are visibly damaged or not in showroom condition.

It would be honest to describe them as second hand or used. If the potential buyer does not ask if any parts are broken or not working, the seller is not obliged to tell them about the faults, but if the buyer does ask if any parts are not working or are damaged, then the seller is obliged to answer honestly, and to describe what they know. Obviously if a seller is not aware of non-obvious issues they cant describe them, so for the sake of clarity they should say "These are what I am aware of, but you should check yourself" That firmly places the onus on the buyer.

The only come back is if the goods were inaccurately described, or there is evidence of fraud. It is implicit in the sale of second hand goods, that the goods may have some defects, so the buyer cannot assume that in the absence of any remarks about specific items or issues that they are ok. If the question of damp was never raised before the sale, then that is the buyers problem.

I am aware that your friend has agreed to reverse the transaction, that is a very generous act, but strictly unnecessary. The buyer apparently had every opportunity to view and ask questions about the caravan, and it is his misfortune if he failed to check for any damp or other problems.

 

[Parksy]

I met up with my friend last night and he told me that although he knew that he stood a very good chance of winning any court action he didn't fancy the prospect of facing the summer with a seasonal pitch but no caravan and with the possibility of a court case hanging over him.

He made the mistake of not having his caravan serviced by a dealer or approved caravan engineer and he now accepts that he will probably take a financial hit when he part exchanges. The guy who bought the caravan is just a normal working man like himself, the sum of money involved is substantial and even if he had won in court my mate couldn't live with himself knowing that somebody felt that he's swindled them in some way.

The caravan wasn't used and will be returned on Saturday and providing that everything is as it should be the money will be refunded.

Thanks for the good advice and there are some lessons for prospective caravan buyers in this topic.