Do I need to take a towing test

[MarkWrd1]

Hi All,

So, very new to the world of Caravanning. We are inheriting a Bailey pageant bordeux 2005 and before I go off pulling it down the road I want to get clarification on the ‘towing license’

I feel that, reading in the DVLA website the terminology is somewhat down to ‘interpretation‘ but I bet the law won’t see it that way.
So, to the experienced people here can I tow?

I have a standard B license and passed my test in 2006

My car is an smax 2.5T petrol 2008.

The parkers website specs the car weight as 1905kg but I don’t know if this includes fuel, I’m guessing not?

The weightplate stats are as follows

2420kg - Gross vehicle weight
4120kg - Gross train weight
1210kg - front axel
1265kg - rear axel

The caravan is a bailey pageant bordeux 2005 4 berth. The weights taken from the book are:

1336kg - Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass
1150kg - M.R.O

I’m interested in how this is all worked out as I’ve spent about 30 mins reading on the dvla website which makes it even more confusing in my opinion.

Any additional weight advice greatly received

Thanks in advance, can’t wait to take the family away for the first time

Mark

 

[otherclive]

Your GVW +MTPLM exceeds 3500kg which is the limit of your licence. It doesn’t matter if you kept the car and caravan light by not loading them to the maximum. It is the plated weight that governs what outfit you can drive on your present licence.

Best you go for the test and gain your BE licence.

 

[MarkWrd1]

Thanks for the quick and clear response. Looks like I’ll be parting with some money in the coming weeks. Can’t complain though in the grand scheme of things.

For a newby, they don’t make it clear at all. It’s very confusing

 

[MarkWrd1]

Would I be correct in saying GVW +MTPLM=MAM?

 

[otherclive]

Would I be correct in saying GVW +MTPLM=MAM?

This explains it.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

 

[ProfJohnL]

Would I be correct in saying GVW +MTPLM=MAM?

Hello Mark,
Welcome to the wonderful world of towing weights masses, and limits. The devil is in the detail, which the Government internet portal doesn't always make clear.

I do agree on first contact with towing weights and limits it can be very confusing. Its made even more difficult because the same criteria can be described by several different acronyms, and the differences between limits and measured values are not always immediately clear and understood.

There are some acronyms that might appear to have very similar definitions, yet one may refer to a measured value whilst the other may be a limit, and it doesn't help that a large proportion of the population do not appreciate the difference between mass and weight and force.

But despite its apparent complexity there is logic behind it, is a matter of working through it step by step.

However back to your question. Tow vehicles and trailers have separate Maximum Authorised Mass's or MAM's.
In your example the GVW is the same as the MAM for the car, and the MTPLM is the MAM for the caravan.

The wording of the licences B entitlement allows you to drive a vehicle whose MAM does not exceed 3500kg but it also allows you to drive a vehicle towing a braked trailer provided the combined MAM (GVW +MTPLM) does not exceed 3500kg. The important word is "combined". As Clive has pointed out you cannot circumvent the regulation by only part loading the car or its trailer as its based on maximum limits not measured weights.
Going for the E extension test removes virtually all restrictions and you can tow any trailer within the stated capability of the tow vehicle.

The law does not differentiate caravans from any other sort of trailer, but the caravan industry does offer guidance and suggests the novices should aim to have a caravan with a n MTPLM of no greater than 85% of the tow vehicles kerb weight, provided its within the vehicles towing specification. Only as experience is gained should larger percentages be tried topping out at 100%

I do not know which version of the DVLA advice you have read, but this is one area of the Governments portal which has been changed several times, and it it often fails to include important details that are particularly important to caravanners.

 

[CustardAvenger]

Mark,

Not going to re-tread the excellent responses from Clive & Prof, but just be aware that you can tow a caravan/trailer with a B licence. In your example you would be limited to an MTLPM of 1080KG, I highlighted this as in my formative caravaning years, I was told by a sales representative of a lightweight caravan manufacturer that I could only tow one of their sub 750kg caravans on a B Licence, despite being able to safely tow a 1200KG caravan*

if you do decide to obtain the 'BE' Category (also known as B+E), as I did, you can find some Course Providers here. I took a few hours of training with a local instructor who replicated the reversing test course. I used their car & trailer for the test. I had about 5 years of towing experience prior to the test; but I'd recommend training. More info here. It was about £115 for a weekday test (2017) not including the instructor fees.

Edit: * with my car at the time.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Mark,

Not going to re-tread the excellent responses from Clive & Prof, but just be aware that you can tow a caravan/trailer with a B licence. In your example you would be limited to an MTLPM of 1080KG, I highlighted this as in my formative caravaning years, I was told by a sales representative of a lightweight caravan manufacturer that I could only tow one of their sub 750kg caravans on a B Licence, despite being able to safely tow a 1200KG caravan .

Custard Avengers comment is quite right, but to avoid confusion, just for clarity when he writes he could safely tow a 1200kg caravan its determined by the difference between the Licence limit of 3500kg, and the MAM of the tow vehicle, the balance is the available limit for the trailers MTPLM.

 

[Buckman]

In simple terms the maximum weight that could be towed on a B licence is 1080kg which is exceeded by the MIRO of the caravan. Definitely B+E licence time to tow that combination.

 

[ProfJohnL]

In simple terms the maximum weight that could be towed on a B licence is 1080kg which is exceeded by the MIRO of the caravan. Definitely B+E licence time to tow that combination.

I have to assume Buckman you are referring to a specific tow vehicle (Which is not clear from your posting) as there is no universal figure for the maximum trailer MTPLM

 

[MarkWrd1]

Finally some clarity, thanks to everyone's time in answering this question. If only the government website was this clear it would probably prevent people towing illegally through misunderstanding. I bet there's a lot of them out there

 

[CustardAvenger]

In simple terms the maximum weight that could be towed on a B licence is 1080kg which is exceeded by the MIRO of the caravan. Definitely B+E licence time to tow that combination.

I have to assume Buckman you are referring to a specific tow vehicle (Which is not clear from your posting) as there is no universal figure for the maximum trailer MTPLM

More egg for the pudding: Passing the BE test between Jan 97 and Jan 2013 gives no limit on max trailer weight. Passing after 19 Jan 2013 (like I did) gives you the entitlement to tow a trailer with a MAM of 3500kg. You are informed a C1E test/licence is required to tow heavier trailers.

(The gov.uk website does make it seem that passing your driving test prior to 19 Jan 2013 is all the counts for unlimited trailer MAM, however the codes on my licence photocard inform that post 2013 trailer limits of 3500kg are in place: 2017 BE entitlement and 1999 B.)

 

[ProfJohnL]

...More egg for the pudding: Passing the BE test between Jan 97 and Jan 2013 gives no limit on max trailer weight. Passing after 19 Jan 2013 (like I did) gives you the entitlement to tow a trailer with a MAM of 3500kg. You are informed a C1E test/licence is required to tow heavier trailers.

(The gov.uk website does make it seem that passing your driving test prior to 19 Jan 2013 is all the counts for unlimited trailer MAM, however the codes on my licence photocard inform that post 2013 trailer limits of 3500kg are in place: 2017 BE entitlement and 1999 B.)

Hello Paul,
The first point has limited relevance to caravanner's as I am not aware of any UK caravan with an MTPLM even approaching 3500kg, so the criteria you relate are not likely to be encountered. Some American trailers maybe approaching this size, but they would normally be towed by small trucks in Cat C.

The second point concerning the C entitlement is for tow vehicles with an MAM in excess of 3500kg, which are almost always commercial vehicles, so are not exactly relevant to the thread, or UK caravaning in general

 

[Lutz]

Lots of other restrictions apply once the trailer exceeds 3500kg too. They are mainly of a technical nature and wouldn't be met by the average towcar anyway because it simply isn't set up for independent braking of the trailer. In practice, the chance of encountering anything over 3500kg with a towcar that can otherwise be driven solo on a B licence is therefore very remote.

 

[Buckman]

In simple terms the maximum weight that could be towed on a B licence is 1080kg which is exceeded by the MIRO of the caravan. Definitely B+E licence time to tow that combination.

I have to assume Buckman you are referring to a specific tow vehicle (Which is not clear from your posting) as there is no universal figure for the maximum trailer MTPLM

I was referring to the details of vehicle and caravan given in the OPs first post! I thought most savvy people would have realised this? :cheer:

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Mark,

I would like to congratulate you on your foresight to check these points out. You provided all the necessary information in your first post, which has made it easy to provide good advice.

As you have said the issue of weights and licence's is easily overlooked, and I am sure there are quite a few driving who are towing caravans blissfully unaware their licence doesn't cover their outfit.

It's a complex matter because the Government has changed the definitions for many of the categories, yet retained the same index. This means you have to remember when you passed your test, and know how to look up the definitions for the entitlements you have.

The tradition is that the rights you received when you passed your test stick with you for life under Grandfather rites, but the Gov has been a bit sneaky, as in particular on one particular iteration of the B only entitlement there was a further limitation, where the trailer MTPLM must not exceed the tow vehicles unladen weight, but this was later withdrawn, but they never publicised it and they certainly never sent a letter explaining it to all affected driver's

As time passes the proportion of drivers who have taken their basic test since entitlement Be was withdrawn in Jan 1997 increases. The demographic of these drivers changes and with the fashion for owning a large 4x4 many may think about towing not realising that despite having such a big and capable vehicle, their licence actually makes it impossible to tow a caravan of any size!

The SMax should be a pretty good match for the caravan, and I'm Shure with the diligence you have shown now will pay off in the future.

 

[Buckman]

Hello again Mark,
As time passes the proportion of drivers who have taken their basic test since entitlement Be was withdrawn in Jan 1997 increases. The demographic of these drivers changes and with the fashion for owning a large 4x4 many may think about towing not realising that despite having such a big and capable vehicle, their licence actually makes it impossible to tow a caravan of any size! .

I often wonder how many drivers there are out there that have only a B licence but tow in excess of 3500kg and are unaware they are committing an offence. After all the chances of being stopped and your licence checked are almost zero!

 

[Thingy]

often wonder how many drivers there are out there that have only a B licence but tow in excess of 3500kg and are unaware they are committing an offence. After all the chances of being stopped and your licence checked are almost zero!

Not so sure that the chance of being stopped is almost zero, but I do wonder how many officers would check beyond a current licence for the categories.

 

[Raywood]

The chances of being stopped are low but i did see a report of this happening on a motorway services and the police did pick up some drivers whose combination exceeded the 3,500 limit. They were left at the services and not allowed to tow the caravan away. The report did not say how they got out but presumably they either had to wait until the Police had gone and hope for the best or arrage for someone else to tow the caravan away.

 

[otherclive]

The chances of being stopped are low but i did see a report of this happening on a motorway services and the police did pick up some drivers whose combination exceeded the 3,500 limit. They were left at the services and not allowed to tow the caravan away. The report did not say how they got out but presumably they either had to wait until the Police had gone and hope for the best or arrage for someone else to tow the caravan away.

I have been escorted by outriders for a VOSA now DVSA weight check near to Ringwood. Purely random pick up. But well within legal limits I’m pleased to say.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Unless the police recognise the driver and have some suspicion about their entitlement, they have no way of knowing if the driver is correctly licenced unless they stop it and check. The ANC system only tells who the registered owner is, and if the vehicle is correctly taxed and insured. I suspect it also informs on the current state of its MOT as well.

It is of course within the existing powers of the police to stop any and to check the validity drivers documents. This of course might bring such offences to light.