Does anyone tow with a dual fuel car, either factory fitted system or after market. I was thinking about buying one of these, but any advice would be welcome.....
David
David
Dual Fuel Cars.
- Thread starter whitetop
- Start date
Kerbweight will be increased by about 75kg, depending on model, which marginally increases fuel consumption. Power is reduced slightly, about 5-10% when running on LPG. Boot space may be restricted either by the LPG tank directly or the revised positioning of the spare wheel if the LPG tank is in the spare wheel well.
Been towing with LPG range Rovers for seven years now. It's the only way i can afford to drive in luxury! Most of the people who knock it, haven't tried it. The loss of power is negligible, mpg is about the same. The boot space can be aproblem if you've only a small boot, but can be overcome by various means. There are now LPG stations almost everywhere, and the gas is still less than half the price of petrol or diesel.Do you want to pay
I have a Vectra sri 140 estate with factory lpg and my son has a Shogun 3.0 V6 which I had converted with an underslung tank.
The Vectra is not powereful enough for my current van but I regularly used the Shogun to tow a Senator Vermont two years ago and it was fine - no different from petrol except much cheaper in fuel cost!
I aggree with Emmerson - don't knock it till you try it. The Vectra averages 29mpg on LPG and you really cannot tell the difference in performance between LPG and petrol. The official Vauxhall performance figure quotes only 1bhp more for petrol than lpg with the same torque figures except that the peak is at lower rpm on gas.
The only downside with the Shogun was reduced rage on petrol because of a 26 litre tank - never found that a problem myself because I always managed to plan trips with LPG stations on route but admit it could be difficult in certain areas of the country or in Spain for example.
If you buy or have a car converted make sure the system is LPGA approved - if you are in East Anglia look up the company in Hull that both convert and sell almost exclusively LPG cars - not plugging them but their website gives a
good idea of what is available.
Regarding factory fit versus conversion I don't think there's a lot in it as long as you get a proper job done.
One observation I have made, there does not seem to be a price premium on converted vehicles, which is suprising but I put it down to covservatism amongst the motoring pulic.
I am lucky and live one mile from an Asda selling LPG for 39p/litre and my 200 miles a week running about costs about
The Vectra is not powereful enough for my current van but I regularly used the Shogun to tow a Senator Vermont two years ago and it was fine - no different from petrol except much cheaper in fuel cost!
I aggree with Emmerson - don't knock it till you try it. The Vectra averages 29mpg on LPG and you really cannot tell the difference in performance between LPG and petrol. The official Vauxhall performance figure quotes only 1bhp more for petrol than lpg with the same torque figures except that the peak is at lower rpm on gas.
The only downside with the Shogun was reduced rage on petrol because of a 26 litre tank - never found that a problem myself because I always managed to plan trips with LPG stations on route but admit it could be difficult in certain areas of the country or in Spain for example.
If you buy or have a car converted make sure the system is LPGA approved - if you are in East Anglia look up the company in Hull that both convert and sell almost exclusively LPG cars - not plugging them but their website gives a
good idea of what is available.
Regarding factory fit versus conversion I don't think there's a lot in it as long as you get a proper job done.
One observation I have made, there does not seem to be a price premium on converted vehicles, which is suprising but I put it down to covservatism amongst the motoring pulic.
I am lucky and live one mile from an Asda selling LPG for 39p/litre and my 200 miles a week running about costs about
Could not agree more. All of what has been said above entirely reflects my experience.
Some garages that are note authorised to work on LPG can be negative as it means that once you have an LPG converted car you will probabaly go somewhere else for your servicing.
I have said this before so apologies for those who have seen this before, but I just LOVE to check the oil thousands of miles after an oil change and see that it is still clear and clean!
Not black with trapped soot particles - just clear and clean - no wonder engines on LPG suffer far less wear.
As for factory conversions, I understand Subaru are especially efficient here, and are very adept at getting the 80% Powershift grant to reduce costs. Subaru also are particularly able cars when it comes to towing.
As for retained value all I can say is that when I sold my old Range Rover I had eleven enguiries and the first chap who saw it bought it. The LPG conversion may not add a lot more value but it makes the vehicle easier to sell!
As regards boot space - I understand that a "donut" shaped tank can easily be fitted in the spare wheel well and the tyres treated with a special "goo" that prevents a puncture from deflating the tyre.
If you have a large vehicle, especially a 4x4, you can have the tanks slung underneath in most cases.
Some garages that are note authorised to work on LPG can be negative as it means that once you have an LPG converted car you will probabaly go somewhere else for your servicing.
I have said this before so apologies for those who have seen this before, but I just LOVE to check the oil thousands of miles after an oil change and see that it is still clear and clean!
Not black with trapped soot particles - just clear and clean - no wonder engines on LPG suffer far less wear.
As for factory conversions, I understand Subaru are especially efficient here, and are very adept at getting the 80% Powershift grant to reduce costs. Subaru also are particularly able cars when it comes to towing.
As for retained value all I can say is that when I sold my old Range Rover I had eleven enguiries and the first chap who saw it bought it. The LPG conversion may not add a lot more value but it makes the vehicle easier to sell!
As regards boot space - I understand that a "donut" shaped tank can easily be fitted in the spare wheel well and the tyres treated with a special "goo" that prevents a puncture from deflating the tyre.
If you have a large vehicle, especially a 4x4, you can have the tanks slung underneath in most cases.
For the record, I wasn't knocking LPG conversions. I was simply giving factual information.
I wasn't passing an opinion, I'll leave that to those with experience of LPG vehicles.
I wasn't passing an opinion, I'll leave that to those with experience of LPG vehicles.
I have some interesting memories of the Bi-fuel car I drove. The positive was going into a filling station and filling the car up for a fraction of the normal cost. In fact when you pay circa 40p per litre it reminded me of when I first owned a car and it could be filled for just under
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Just watch your towload if you have a bi-fuel car (or any other LPG conversion, for that matter). As Roger L correctly points out, the kerbweight is increased by about 75kg. This increase will restrict your payload and possibly also drop the maximum permissible towload by the same amount if there is a gross train weight limit.
For those that want a good review of Dual Fuel cars have a look at the Department Of Trade & Industry (DTI) site :-
http://www.boostlpg.co.uk/driver_industry/Switch to LPG magazine.pdf
The DTI and the LPG association came together to produce this site.
There are several good sources of info on the www if you just Google "LPG Engine Wear".
Have a look - make your own mind up.
http://www.boostlpg.co.uk/driver_industry/Switch to LPG magazine.pdf
The DTI and the LPG association came together to produce this site.
There are several good sources of info on the www if you just Google "LPG Engine Wear".
Have a look - make your own mind up.
I know very little abour LPG but highlighting DavidW comment that he got 29mpg from the Vectra on LPG bearing in mind that it would be possible be achieving well over 50mpg with a Vectra diesel and the cost of converting to run on gas the savings do not appear to be as great as I would have thought.
We have a Peugeot 406 1.8 Estate and tow an Elddis GT Typhoon.
We towed with it last month for the first time and it was fine.
Saving money along the way!
We are so glad we bought it.
We towed with it last month for the first time and it was fine.
Saving money along the way!
We are so glad we bought it.
Well put Clive - another point to make is that of course LPG is lower in Co2 emmisions and particulates than a diesel.
I would also take issue with the the suggestion that LPG systems are a compromise, modern injection systems have their own ECU wich compensate for the differing characteristics of LPG - the Vauxhall system for example has a seperate ignition map on the lpg ECU to give the correct advance curve for LPG with it's differing burn characteristics, emulators also phase in with the the cars own elctronics to prevent engine warnings and divert limp mode signals. Iv'e said it before but it's worth a repeat - vehicles converted by an LPGA approved outfit or factory fits are the only ones to go for as all the foregoing is taken care of!
Oh and by the way - if you buy a used LPG car, as I said there seems to be little or no price premium so the savings are immediate. If you do stump up for a converson or pay extra for a new model then the savings equation is more complex and can include grants, however, the green credentials are indisputable and if you do more than 20k miles a year or pay the congestion charge, payback would occur in 18 months or less.
I would also take issue with the the suggestion that LPG systems are a compromise, modern injection systems have their own ECU wich compensate for the differing characteristics of LPG - the Vauxhall system for example has a seperate ignition map on the lpg ECU to give the correct advance curve for LPG with it's differing burn characteristics, emulators also phase in with the the cars own elctronics to prevent engine warnings and divert limp mode signals. Iv'e said it before but it's worth a repeat - vehicles converted by an LPGA approved outfit or factory fits are the only ones to go for as all the foregoing is taken care of!
Oh and by the way - if you buy a used LPG car, as I said there seems to be little or no price premium so the savings are immediate. If you do stump up for a converson or pay extra for a new model then the savings equation is more complex and can include grants, however, the green credentials are indisputable and if you do more than 20k miles a year or pay the congestion charge, payback would occur in 18 months or less.
Agreed David, The 26% saving is LPG against diesel of course the saving against petrol is even higher.
And having once had to replace a Cat on a petrol car I do not want to have that expense again in a hurry. So the clean burning LPG that keeps the Cats in good order is another saving.
My son also is having problems with his injectors on his diesel 306. Are they expensive or what!!!
As for TD5 Land Rover injectors - they are
And having once had to replace a Cat on a petrol car I do not want to have that expense again in a hurry. So the clean burning LPG that keeps the Cats in good order is another saving.
My son also is having problems with his injectors on his diesel 306. Are they expensive or what!!!
As for TD5 Land Rover injectors - they are
David,
Why start you response with total misinformation or a complete fib !!
Diesel engines are now of the equivalent or Better emission level than LPG - a clear a easy table for you to read is to see how many Diesel engine cars fit in Band A & B of the DVLA's emissions based vehicle excise tariffs.
The point I was making with regard to ECU is that in any converted vehicle where the manufacturer hasn't designed the ECU to take into account an "aftermarket conversion" is not good. As a good customer of a Bosch, Delphi, Lucas injection systems garage I Know of the examples of Mercedes E Classes with very expensive E prom replacements because the Taxi driver went LPG they've also seen lots of issues with Japanese Multi-point engines. I not knocking LPG because Clive's own example is a good example that everyone accepts as a conversion that goes well. But it's a simple good design.
But you either suggest everyone buys a Vauxhall BI -Fuel (read the honest John forum of how successful or not this car has been in service). One point is that British Gas runs a large Vauxhall fleet of Combo vans with a Bi-fuel option - They run diesel instead and they extract the stuff!! LOL LOL
The Other point that you rightly point is that if you buy an LPG car with a premium principally with a
Why start you response with total misinformation or a complete fib !!
Diesel engines are now of the equivalent or Better emission level than LPG - a clear a easy table for you to read is to see how many Diesel engine cars fit in Band A & B of the DVLA's emissions based vehicle excise tariffs.
The point I was making with regard to ECU is that in any converted vehicle where the manufacturer hasn't designed the ECU to take into account an "aftermarket conversion" is not good. As a good customer of a Bosch, Delphi, Lucas injection systems garage I Know of the examples of Mercedes E Classes with very expensive E prom replacements because the Taxi driver went LPG they've also seen lots of issues with Japanese Multi-point engines. I not knocking LPG because Clive's own example is a good example that everyone accepts as a conversion that goes well. But it's a simple good design.
But you either suggest everyone buys a Vauxhall BI -Fuel (read the honest John forum of how successful or not this car has been in service). One point is that British Gas runs a large Vauxhall fleet of Combo vans with a Bi-fuel option - They run diesel instead and they extract the stuff!! LOL LOL
The Other point that you rightly point is that if you buy an LPG car with a premium principally with a
Clive
If this really is the savings and you fail to take into account the following In some months Diesel registrations have accounted for over 50% of New Car sales in fact the only months it dropped below was when the big rental fleets buy loads of super mini's
Fiats new Croma is expected to sell 85 % diesel.
Back to the sums you simple "*** packet approach fails to take into account the biggest cost than a motorist doesn't look at DEPRECIATION
The residuals on all diesels are typically stronger see the What Car Glass Guide or speak to the Guy on the forum who is a used car dealer (Brian ) I think .
Servicing hours are lower as is the sum cost of parts.
Typically most garages miss diagnose a CAT system when all that's needed is a new Lambarda Sensor. But Customers go silly when it's the biggest money making scam for some garages
Injectors - well I'm sure that price is extreme - Genuine ones for an Audi A4 start at under A
If this really is the savings and you fail to take into account the following In some months Diesel registrations have accounted for over 50% of New Car sales in fact the only months it dropped below was when the big rental fleets buy loads of super mini's
Fiats new Croma is expected to sell 85 % diesel.
Back to the sums you simple "*** packet approach fails to take into account the biggest cost than a motorist doesn't look at DEPRECIATION
The residuals on all diesels are typically stronger see the What Car Glass Guide or speak to the Guy on the forum who is a used car dealer (Brian ) I think .
Servicing hours are lower as is the sum cost of parts.
Typically most garages miss diagnose a CAT system when all that's needed is a new Lambarda Sensor. But Customers go silly when it's the biggest money making scam for some garages
Injectors - well I'm sure that price is extreme - Genuine ones for an Audi A4 start at under A
Come on MH!
You are scraping the barrel if you have to bring in depreciation!
Ask a Subaru salesman what a LPG Subaru fetches on the fourcourt compared to a non LPG equivalent.
As for Fiat! - one of the worlds first disposable cars! (almost as bad as the Yugo) Mind you LPG is most popular in which EU country?
and the answer is.......................
Italy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most of the initial LPG systems that were use in the UK (and many that still are) are Italian systems.
The best are (surprise surprise!) German or Dutch now but even so the Italians did in many ways lead the way.
What you consistently fail to take into account is that LPG as a fuel is still relatively new. It is this reason and this reason alone that LPG is not as accepted as diesel.
Give it a few years and we will have a level playing field.
And diesel dinosaurs will accept that LPG has huge advantages. After all have you seen what the Australians do with LPG on their big diesel "road trains"?
I will leave you to find out about LPG and what it can do for the diesel engine!!!
It will be an education for you!!
You are scraping the barrel if you have to bring in depreciation!
Ask a Subaru salesman what a LPG Subaru fetches on the fourcourt compared to a non LPG equivalent.
As for Fiat! - one of the worlds first disposable cars! (almost as bad as the Yugo) Mind you LPG is most popular in which EU country?
and the answer is.......................
Italy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most of the initial LPG systems that were use in the UK (and many that still are) are Italian systems.
The best are (surprise surprise!) German or Dutch now but even so the Italians did in many ways lead the way.
What you consistently fail to take into account is that LPG as a fuel is still relatively new. It is this reason and this reason alone that LPG is not as accepted as diesel.
Give it a few years and we will have a level playing field.
And diesel dinosaurs will accept that LPG has huge advantages. After all have you seen what the Australians do with LPG on their big diesel "road trains"?
I will leave you to find out about LPG and what it can do for the diesel engine!!!
It will be an education for you!!
Clive
I thought Depreciation would be you thing you are after all a financial advisor!!
Can't speak for Subaru as it could be the exception to the rule but they did have 0.45% of the UK market place according to the latest stats in fact Porsche sell more cars in the UK. Even you mate David accepts second hand values are at best neutral
As you may know I'm no fan of fiat but their products do seem to be on a renaissance; the Croma is the best selling car in it's class across Europe for the last 6 months.
I don't doubt the fact about fact about LPG in Italy but Fiat SPA have put their faith in petrol and diesel engines and jointly produce the later with GM
I think LPG has it's place but it still has to get over the density/cost/range issue
Would be interested in any links on Aussie rigs
We (transport industry tried CNG in this country and it go absolutely no-where really - just like the trucks.
And I don't consistently fail to take into account that LPG as a fuel is still relatively new. It's been around long enough for people to be persuaded or otherwise,the sales of conversions still account for far more sales.
It is this reason and this reason alone that LPG is not as accepted as diesel.
The future is bio ethanol or diesel
I thought Depreciation would be you thing you are after all a financial advisor!!
Can't speak for Subaru as it could be the exception to the rule but they did have 0.45% of the UK market place according to the latest stats in fact Porsche sell more cars in the UK. Even you mate David accepts second hand values are at best neutral
As you may know I'm no fan of fiat but their products do seem to be on a renaissance; the Croma is the best selling car in it's class across Europe for the last 6 months.
I don't doubt the fact about fact about LPG in Italy but Fiat SPA have put their faith in petrol and diesel engines and jointly produce the later with GM
I think LPG has it's place but it still has to get over the density/cost/range issue
Would be interested in any links on Aussie rigs
We (transport industry tried CNG in this country and it go absolutely no-where really - just like the trucks.
And I don't consistently fail to take into account that LPG as a fuel is still relatively new. It's been around long enough for people to be persuaded or otherwise,the sales of conversions still account for far more sales.
It is this reason and this reason alone that LPG is not as accepted as diesel.
The future is bio ethanol or diesel
But the problem with bio-ethanol is that you have to rip up half the Amazon rain forest to produce the biomass for fermentation!
The EU has set these targets that it cannot meet itself from within the EU itself and so biomass has to be produced elsewhere.
So we have the ridiculous situation of we in the EU, NOT using a waste product of oil production (LPG is the gas you see being burnt off on most oil rigs) to its best advantage but instead screwing up the markets in the third world so that they grow Soya bean for the biomass for our ethanol so that we can hit an arbitrary target set by the numpties in the EU!
When we realise what we have done, we will no doubt change the rules so that the Soya Bean Biomass is no longer required and we will leave another part of the third world staggering under the effects of our esteemed leader's gross stupidity.
The future may be ethanol and diesel, but only at the expense of others.
The EU has set these targets that it cannot meet itself from within the EU itself and so biomass has to be produced elsewhere.
So we have the ridiculous situation of we in the EU, NOT using a waste product of oil production (LPG is the gas you see being burnt off on most oil rigs) to its best advantage but instead screwing up the markets in the third world so that they grow Soya bean for the biomass for our ethanol so that we can hit an arbitrary target set by the numpties in the EU!
When we realise what we have done, we will no doubt change the rules so that the Soya Bean Biomass is no longer required and we will leave another part of the third world staggering under the effects of our esteemed leader's gross stupidity.
The future may be ethanol and diesel, but only at the expense of others.
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