Eldiss Solid construction

[Mandarin]

We have a 2020 Eldiss and the front side is coming away from the floor. It's all in process with our dealer and Eldiss but one thing the dealer mentioned is that Eldiss will want to investigate why the separation has happened, and if owner mistreatment has contributed.

I can understand the need for investigation but what on earth could an owner do to contribute to this in normal usage? Eldiss talk about their extensive testing which seems more rigorous that anything a normal owner would throw at it.

 

[otherclive]

We have a 2020 Eldiss and the front side is coming away from the floor. It's all in process with our dealer and Eldiss but one thing the dealer mentioned is that Eldiss will want to investigate why the separation has happened, and if owner mistreatment has contributed.

I can understand the need for investigation but what on earth could an owner do to contribute to this in normal usage? Eldiss talk about their extensive testing which seems more rigorous that anything a normal owner would throw at it.

Perhaps towing it with a commercial vehicle, but difficult to prove unkess there is chassis deformation. Or towing it over rough tracks/sites but again not easy to prove although chassis or axle damage may be seen. They might do extensive testing on development models which will have been rigorously scrutinised during build to ensure everything is constructed properly. But if the production version has been poorly constructed then no amount of development testing is relevant. What happens if the bonding process is not to specification? There will be problems during life. I strongly suspect that your problem is a result of poor build quality. Have any other owners reported similar problems in their caravans?

 

[Mandarin]

I suspect you're right about the build quality, however advanced the glues used they're still applied by humans with productivity targets.

And yes I've seen a couple of other examples on forums with similar issues.

 

[Raywood]

At the end of the day if there is a serious problem then Eldiss do have the right to examine it to see what the cause is and the extent of any repair needed. Hopefully they will try to prevent the same happening again but I would not bet on it.
There is not a lot you can do for the moment other than make it clear you require the work being carried out promptly.

 

[ProfJohnL]

At the end of the day if there is a serious problem then Eldiss do have the right to examine it to see what the cause is and the extent of any repair needed. ....

I'm sorry Ray but where does the manufacturer have the "right" to see an end users caravan come from? They may request to see it and they may make any offer to repair or refund under the manufacturer's warranty contingent on them being able to inspect, but there is no way the manufacture can insist on seeing a customers caravan for any other reason.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I'm sorry Ray but where does the manufacturer have the "right" to see an end users caravan come from? They may request to see it and they may make any offer to repair or refund under the manufacturer's warranty contingent on them being able to inspect, but there is no way the manufacture can insist on seeing a customers caravan for any other reason.

Maybe the use of the word 'right' can be interpreted in different ways. An Elddis 2020 van is still under warranty.

If a claim is being made under warranty then it's not unusual for it to be inspected first to determine if its covered by warranty. Hence the manufacturer or agent 'requires' to see the item.

If the van was in for repair outside of warranty for some serious problem I don't see it as an issue that the manufacturer should request to see the problem for their own investigations and that may help them understand the problem or even help in fixing it. It may be in your own interest to cooperate but its not legally binding if that's your interpretation of 'right'

 

[Dustydog]

If Elddis may possibly be footing the bill then in Contract and Tort they have the “right” to request an inspection. No one in their right(sic) mind is going to deny this? Or are they🙀🤪

 

[ProfJohnL]

Preciselythe point I was making which is why I specifically stated

... They may request to see it and they may make any offer to repair or refund under the manufacturer's warranty contingent on them being able to inspect, ...

 

[longtailtit]

Once Elddis has done an inspection - you can (if you wish) get a copy of Elddis' findings (i.e. the inspection report) through the "Subject Access Request" procedure by writing to Elddis.

This documentation could be a useful piece of evidence, especially if it is a manufacturing fault and the fault reoccurs at a later date.

(Details as to how to do a "Subject Access Request" is available online e.g. on Which? pages- it's all free and Elddis are obliged to send any documents concerning your caravan that you request).

We have used this SAR process to prove that Elddis knew that our caravan's faults were due to manufacturing faults all along - even though Eldiss were trying to pass the buck on to us! Unfortunately, this is all too often standard practice for this manufacturer,

I hope all goes well.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I do believe that all manufacturer's ( all products not just caravans) should ultimately be made liable for manufacturing substandard products, but here in the UK there are at least two major legal barriers placed between the consumer and the manufacturer that prevents the consumer from normally taking direct proceedings against a manufacturer.

The first issue is our Consumer Rights in various guises, where liability can only exist between contracted parties i.e. customer and seller. This sets out a perfectly good argument that sellers should not sell faulty goods, but this basically shields the supply processors and the manufacturer from the problems they cause the end users.

And the second factor is even more contentious, and that is the the way consumer rights sets out the notion of what constitutes a fault, and how " reasonable durability" or "life expectancy" are established in the context of the product in question.

But in the case of caravanning, we see from reliability surveys that customers find significant faults in about 20% of new caravans that have to have some form of remedial work carried out under the manufacturer's warranty policies. By the standards of any factory manufacturing process that is a very high attrition rate, and some of those faults are indicative of inadequate design and development or uncontrolled assembly procedures, and despite years of similar evidence the industry has not taken effective action to reduce this crazy combination of waste of time ,resources and money, and disruption it causes to their end users and dealers

But there is also an insidious range of other less serious faults which go unrecorded, because UK caravanner's have become so used to having to put up with manufacturing faults in caravans, it has become an accepted norm that small adjustments or minor repairs will be needed after relatively short periods of ownership, and so do not get recorded.

It's this historic pattern of poor reliability which seems to used to suggest a caravan does not have a long life expectancy. Yet we see many caravans still in active use at age 10 to 15 years often having had to be repaired to correct leaky panel joints and fittings.

Where panel joints and leaks are often the problem, the manufacturers more often than not seek to blame the end user for driving over "unsuitable surfaces." There may be a few cases where this is true, but the majority are just driven over the normal UK roads.

If cars fell apart in the way caravans do there would be a massive outcry. But the fact cars don't fall apart even after doing tens of thousands of more miles than most caravans simply highlights how far behind caravan design and testing is from the realities of real life.

 

[Dustydog]

According to Companies House one major manufacturer paid out £1.7m last year on warranty claims, reserves remain at nearly £4 m. If they got it right at the start? Dream on.

 

[Raywood]

I do believe that all manufacturer's ( all products not just caravans) should ultimately be made liable for manufacturing substandard products, but here in the UK there are at least two major legal barriers placed between the consumer and the manufacturer that prevents the consumer from normally taking direct proceedings against a manufacturer.

The first issue is our Consumer Rights in various guises, where liability can only exist between contracted parties i.e. customer and seller. This sets out a perfectly good argument that sellers should not sell faulty goods, but this basically shields the supply processors and the manufacturer from the problems they cause the end users.

.

Prof, I have suggested this before but it was pointed out that many products including some caravans are imported and that might leave UK built products at a disadvantage. I do tend to agree with you though, but there has to be some way of dealing with foreign companies for it to be a level playing field.

 

[otherclive]

Prof, I have suggested this before but it was pointed out that many products including some caravans are imported and that might leave UK built products at a disadvantage. I do tend to agree with you though, but there has to be some way of dealing with foreign companies for it to be a level playing field.

The CRA2015 allows the buyer to take action on a foreign made van via the UK Seller. But I think it is wishful thinking to believe that a UK buyer can take direct action against a foreign manufacturer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

According to Companies House one major manufacturer paid out £1.7m last year on warranty claims, reserves remain at nearly £4 m. If they got it right at the start? Dream on.

And that is only part of the story, What about the claims that dealers don't put through to manufacturers (yes there are some honest and hard working dealers who do value customers) , But even when a claim is put through, the manufacturer has contract with the dealership that means the dealer doesn't get the full cost of labour back.

An then there re the multiple little things that end users out right them selves without even bothering the dealer yet alone the manufacturer. I realistically suspect that company is really responsible for more like £3M of warranty costs.

Ultimately it is the customer that pays for all this through higher prices. The manufacturers make customers pay for their mistakes!

 

[Dustydog]

Ultimately it is the customer that pays for all this through higher prices. The manufacturers make customers pay for their mistakes!

I couldn’t agree more Prof,. The first year of ownership from new needs an Owner who is competent at joinery, plumbing ,glues, screws ,rerouting cabling and pipes , etc. The sheer inconvenience of towing back to the dealer makes a lot of people DIY.

The move to SoLiD , Alu tec methods of construction have not improved water ingress . In fact some say it is worse as the floors now get water damaged.

During WW2 construction of the De Havilland Mosqito were signs everywhere. Don’t spare the glue? Today Don’t spare the sealant!

 

[RogerL]

The lack of care and quality in caravan construction is the reason we don't change our caravan very often - the first three years are a challenge to find and fix all the issues and then enjoy many years of trouble-free caravanning.

The fact that a significant proportion of new caravan buyers are prepared to change frequently is part of the problem, makers are under no real pressure to improve their quality as there's always new buyers queueing up to replace their caravan with another new one.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof, I have suggested this before but it was pointed out that many products including some caravans are imported and that might leave UK built products at a disadvantage. I do tend to agree with you though, but there has to be some way of dealing with foreign companies for it to be a level playing field.

I do recall you have made a similar suggestion, and yes there is a potential problem with foreign made products, and whilst ideally I would like to see the manufacturers of all products facing the realities of the difficulties and inconvenience they cause by poor design or production.

the fact is everyone involved with the supply chain between manufacturer and customer should be culpable and fully liable (to the parties in their contracts) when a product fails.

Presently only the retail portion of the supply process is governed by the CRA, so end users can only legitimately seek remedy from their retail seller. And then the concept culpability back through the supply chain falls down, as commercial contracts are not required to have the same quality of reverse liability.

 

[longtailtit]

The lack of care and quality in caravan construction is the reason we don't change our caravan very often - the first three years are a challenge to find and fix all the issues and then enjoy many years of trouble-free caravanning.

The fact that a significant proportion of new caravan buyers are prepared to change frequently is part of the problem, makers are under no real pressure to improve their quality as there's always new buyers queueing up to replace their caravan with another new one.

That's a good point - but the main problem with owning a caravan past 6 years is that the CRA2015 runs out.

The only extension to the 6 year period I can see is if you had a repair done within that 6 period and this has failed (in theory, I think this amounts to a second breach and a new 6 year period runs for that defect from that date of breach).

So you may get a small extension past 6 years from the date of purchase – but only in specific circumstances.

I guess, it all depends on the quality of your caravan in the first place as to whether it’s a good idea to take the risk of holding on to the caravan post 6 years.

I regret holding mine...... lesson to self!

 

[Dustydog]

I have to disagree Longtailtit. We used to change every three years yet we still have our latest a Senator Wyoming now 15 years old. I know every nut bolt pipe etc. She’s still dry . Most things are diy. We don’t worry about the odd scratch and the layout is still current. She owes us nothing financially. So we will stick with her . Better the devil you know😜

 

[Hutch]

Same here, ours is 10 years old next February, as DD, I know most of it inside and out, replaced wearable items, like water heater elements, etc. In the first 5 years it had extensive use touring France every 12 weeks for a month at a time.
The main thing for us is we like the layout and it is dry. I cannot see us changing it for another one.

 

[JTQ]

I guess, it all depends on the quality of your caravan in the first place as to whether it’s a good idea to take the risk of holding on to the caravan post 6 years.

Absolutely, and in six years ownership you ought to have a pretty good "handle" on what you have,
I suspect also any weasel worded warranty probably brings only a false assurance somebody will be there to sort you out, come the need.

 

[otherclive]

We kept a 2005 Bailey Series 5 Bordeaux for nine years. It had front and rear panels replaced in years 2 and 3 because of manufacturer induced cracks. Other than that it was essentially trouble free, with a low level of damp being found around the front nearside window identified when I had a pre sale damp survey. That cost £250 for a new seal to be fitted. Had we not decided in 2014 to give up caravanning we would have kept it as it met all our needs and had a good 250 kg payload.

 

[ProfJohnL]

So the message here is new caravans are a lottery (and they shouldn't be) three to 5 year olds are usually ok, but beyond 5 years or so it again becomes a lottery, and an expensive one to repair those that fail.

You don't have to get cars or commercial van panel seams resealed at 5 years so why are caravan manufacturers' so far behind the reliability curve?

The new(ish) caravan construction techniques may have improved the survivability of leaks, but it seems it hasn't stopped the leaks occurring, so in reality the manufacturers have not made any real progress in about 100 years of experience of making better sealed products!

And despite decades of experience with front and rear mouldings failing they still continue to use them obviously incorrectly designed or manufactured.

In my opinion it should be perfectly possible to design and design the manufacturing of a caravan that survives fault free for at least 6 years, but the manufacturers have seen the gullible end-users coming and do as little as possible to get product out of the factory regardless of its fit or finish.

The problem is the buying public are too eager to get their hands on new caravans and they accept them in substandard condition, which simply encourages the manufacturers to skimp on design and product testing.

 

[Danddandy]

After buyiny new caravans every 3 years, sometimes with damp issues found at year three service, I think I may have given manufurers the easy option. . But no more. . Funds have run out. I bought a 2019 Lunar Alaria at a massive discount. (Well someone had to buy the last ones) . . No issues so far. . Some you win, some you lose. But we are happy 'vanners and our son has just bought his first caravan, so the tradition continues. .. Happy days.

 

[JTQ]

In my opinion it should be perfectly possible to design and design the manufacturing of a caravan that survives fault free for at least 6 years, but the manufacturers have seen the gullible end-users coming and do as little as possible to get product out of the factory regardless of its fit or finish.

I could have written that myself, "nail on head" I think.

Much as they could also build in viable user payloads, but why bother themselves with those "gullible end-users" queuing to buy their stuff from their dealer customers, and with it, zero incentive for those customers to ask for anything better.