Electric cars/hybrids. End of, in sight?

[OmOnWeelz]

"28.01.2011 - British scientists 'invent artificial petrol' and there's no carbon

Hydrogen-based fuel produces no greenhouse gases so could help nations slash their carbon footprint
It is due to be available at the pumps in three to five years"
And it runs a conventional engine

 

[Surfer]

"28.01.2011 - British scientists 'invent artificial petrol' and there's no carbon

Hydrogen-based fuel produces no greenhouse gases so could help nations slash their carbon footprint
It is due to be available at the pumps in three to five years"
And it runs a conventional engine

Been around for awhile and generally known as a fuel cell. I agree that electric is not the way forward and is more unfriendly to the environment than convential cars.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

Been around for awhile and generally known as a fuel cell. I agree that electric is not the way forward and is more unfriendly to the environment than conventional cars.

No No Surfer, out of a forecourt pump by the litre or gallon in to a normal engined cars fuel tank

"Artificial petrol that costs 19p per litre could be on forecourts in as little as three years.
British scientists are refining the recipe for a hydrogen-based fuel that will run in existing cars and engines at the fraction of the cost of conventional petrol.
With hydrogen at its heart rather than carbon, it will not produce any harmful emissions when burnt, making it better for the environment, as well as easier on the wallet.
The first road tests are due next year and, if all goes well, the cut-price ‘petrol’ could be on sale in three to five years.
Professor Stephen Bennington, the project’s lead scientist, said: ‘In some senses, hydrogen is the perfect fuel. It has three times more energy than petrol per unit of weight, and when it burns, it produces nothing but water.
‘Our new hydrogen storage materials offer real potential for running cars, planes and other vehicles that currently use hydrocarbons.’
The fuel is expected to cost around $1.50 a gallon, or 19p a litre. Even with fuel taxes, the forecourt price is likely to be around 60p a litre – less than half the current cost.
That would bring the price of filling a 70-litre Ford Mondeo down to around £42.
Energy from hydrogen can be harnessed by burning the gas or combining it with oxygen in a fuel cell to produce electricity.
But current methods of storing hydrogen are expensive and not very safe.
To get round this, scientists from the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, near Oxford, University College London and Oxford University have found a way of densely packing hydrogen into tiny beads that can be poured or pumped like a liquid."

 

[mullsy1]

Honda has the Clarity which you fill with hydrogen at the filling station instead of petrol/deisel and combines this with oxygen in the fuel cell which generates electricity which is then stored in batteries which in turn powers an electric motor.Honda say these hydrogen filling stations will be your own in your own garage at home.Dont think the cost of driving will come down though,the government will introduce road pricing to compensate.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

All very fine, but how about the tried and tested engines that we have millions of, a man made replacement for petrol means that all the old vehicles can go greeen and motorcycles, scooters, lawnmowers and strimmers as well I guess.

Sounds like far better idea than luny tune battery power

 

[ValA.]

Years ago my mother used to know someone who had 'invented' a fuel for his car, which was largely based on water (hydrogen separated out.........?). He had a large tank on the top of his car, and refused to give his secret formula to anyone else - though many people apparently tried to find out! He ran an ordinary car - and apart from the water tank it didn't appear to be modified externally in any way at all. The rumours in the town were that eventually he 'sold-out' to one of the oil and petrol companies - and was amply rewarded for his trouble, moving from his tiny rented house into a much larger house and adjacent cottage, and setting up his own company dealing in oil and petrol supplied by the very people he was reputed to have sold out to.
I worked with his daughter years later, and she said that he absolutely refused to divulge any details at all of the 'fuel' - but did say that he used to maintain that one day when fossil fuels were running out or becoming too expensive for countries without their own oil supplies, she would see one of the fuel companies developing his fuel! Perhaps now is the day...............????

 

[mullsy1]

All very fine, but how about the tried and tested engines that we have millions of, a man made replacement for petrol means that all the old vehicles can go greeen and motorcycles, scooters, lawnmowers and strimmers as well I guess.

Sounds like far better idea than luny tune battery power

Wonder how the combustion takes place since they talk about 'burning the hydrogen' but doesnt say how.Would the spark plugs suffice.Also looks less safe in the vehicle tank than petrol

 

[JonnyG]

With regard the topic heading...The answer is ...NO. not yet and not in the next decade or so.
All my grown up life every few years hear stories of change or the bloke down the road inventing new fuel being bought off just look at the last3 decades or so LPG has been available for cars,at half the price of petrol,and what market share does lpg have?
Petrol /diesel is here to stay, for the next couple of decdes for sure.and now we have hybrids running diesel/electric,things are starting to move.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/motorshows/paris-motor-show/256207/peugeot_reveals_3008_hybrid.html

 

[Philspadders]

i have supplied various parts for this project and it is not all it seems. Delivering Hydrogen at a fuel pump has a number of serious safety issues, also vehciles would have to be extensivley modified to prevent explosive accidents.
The alternative is water cracking, or removing the hydrogen from water and using the hydroge with a number of additives as fuel for i.c enginers. The only problem is the amount of water required.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

The times have a changed

What would BP give for a green fuel that they could pump the same as unleaded after all the bad press they've had in recent times. The green lobby and governments tell us that they need to reduce emissions quikly. I remember tales such as Val's from a long time ago.
The worlds needs have changed today, and the article is saying 3 to 5 years to retail, I think a development such as this will gain a lot of backing. Also don't forget how many governements would like to break out from under the thumb of Opec and the Arab countries. Developing markets such as India and China will also drive the need for any alternative fuel source and further the need for lower emisssions and if there is an alternative to unleaded the price of oil and unleaded will have to fall I guess.
Stability issues of te fuel seem to have been addressed..........................
"But current methods of storing hydrogen are expensive and not very safe.
To get round this, scientists from the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, near Oxford, University College London and Oxford University have found a way of densely packing hydrogen into tiny beads that can be poured or pumped like a liquid"
So I can't see that Mullsy1 has a valid point when lpg gas for cars is pretty volatile stuff and needs special tanks and conversions when this new stuff is said to be suitable for a normal tank and engine.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

i have supplied various parts for this project and it is not all it seems. Delivering Hydrogen at a fuel pump has a number of serious safety issues, also vehciles would have to be extensivley modified to prevent explosive accidents.
The alternative is water cracking, or removing the hydrogen from water and using the hydroge with a number of additives as fuel for i.c enginers. The only problem is the amount of water required.

"According to Stephen Voller CEO at Cella Energy, the technology was developed using advanced materials science, taking high energy materials and encapsulating them using a nanostructuring technique called coaxial electrospraying.
“We have developed new micro-beads that can be used in an existing gasoline or petrol vehicle to replace oil-based fuels,” said Voller. “Early indications are that the micro-beads can be used in existing vehicles without engine modification.”
“The materials are hydrogen-based, and so when used produce no carbon emissions at the point of use, in a similar way to electric vehicles”, said Voller.
The technology has been developed over a four-year top secret programme at the prestigious Rutherford Appleton Laboratory near Oxford, UK.
The development team is led by Professor Stephen Bennington in collaboration with scientists from University College London and Oxford University.
Professor Bennington, Chief Scientific Officer at Cella Energy said, “our technology is based on materials called complex hydrides that contain hydrogen. When encapsulated using our unique patented process, they are safer to handle than regular gasoline.”

SAFER to HANDLE THAN REGULAR GASOLINE it says

I also wonder why manufacturers would want to carry on throwing Hybrid motors and batteries and power systems for them at cars if this new stuff will run a standard engine and give more engergy. Regular engines are becoming more compact as well, with reworked turbos and supercharger technology why have more than one engine!

 

[JonnyG]

When i was a kid in 1975, NASA said by 2010 we would have bases on the moon where people lived, and space flight would be possible en mass, as early indications stated all was viable and only 5 or so years away [in the 70s] Now its 2011 and i am still waiting.
Look i know i do a lot of knocking but it keeps me thinking realistic.At this stage we have no idea of the cost implications or indeed if it is globally feasible or works on a day to day basis. thats before politics and the oil companies flex their muscles.

We have nuclear energy,and all the worries that brings with it,and yet at the time of the Manhattan project there was an alternative,using a abundant substance instead of plutonium,and a darn site safe and cleaner too [i believe the Norwegians are looking into it today] but we knew about it 60 years ago! but the nuclear industry got its way.
So this might be a great discovery, that doesn't mean we will see it in our lifetime.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all.
reading this thread brings two things to mind, one new fuels to run conventional internal combustion engines are not well exactly new various concoctions have been trialed for almost as long as the car has been invented, anyone seen the gas bags on old war footage where town gas was used to power cars and buses when most of the petrol was sent to the war effort indeed I well remember from my youth one of the mining engineers converting a triumph herald to run on parafin quite successfully and that was almost 50years ago all of these inventions seem to disappear within a short time for some reason almost as fast as the news teams do and its back to the petrol pumps as usual, may be this one may be different but I doubt it.
second the question or lpg was rasied the simple answer to why there has not been a big take up of its use is the cost of convertion and the loss of boot space by the gas tank I read somewhere that the cost of convertion COULD repeat could be recovered in five years if the gas price was stable and a average of 12000 miles a year maintaned. of course no mention was made of the extra cost of maintenance to the upper cylinder components as gas does not contain much residue oil after combustion a fact well known to FLT engineers that use primarily gas in thier indoor trucks.
I sure I am right in thinking that someone on the forum has a gas L/D perhaps if he reads this he could enlighten us has to how long it took for the cost to be recovered

colin

 

[OmOnWeelz]

When i was a kid in 1975, NASA said by 2010 we would have bases on the moon where people lived, and space flight would be possible en mass.
We have nuclear energy,and all the worries that brings with it,and yet at the time of the Manhattan project there was an alternative,using a abundant substance instead of plutonium,and a darn site safe and cleaner too [i believe the Norwegians are looking into it today] but we knew about it 60 years ago! but the nuclear industry got its way.
So this might be a great discovery, that doesn't mean we will see it in our lifetime.

Did we need to go to the Moon? Do we need space travel en mass?

How exactly do you equate a fuel that is said to be clean and only produces water when burnt with Nuclear fuel and radiation

Just to repeat, the idea that they are saying is off the starting blocks is a CLEAN fuel, that WORKS in a regular engine

Why concern your heads about LPG conversions or leccy motors. If this stuff is a goer, government that lets it get buried can't claim to be green and should be lynched with the current greeny concerns. Someone will also need to make it in vast quantities and pump and transport it. So surely BP and Shell and Co are up to that

Plus what western government wouldn't wan't to STUFF it up the Arab 'world,' with a push for success the stuff could be the new black gold and Brits could be leaving tanks to overflow and all live like ex Arab tycoons begging people to by a barrel of Opec crude for a $1.50

 

[Surfer]

Been around for awhile and generally known as a fuel cell. I agree that electric is not the way forward and is more unfriendly to the environment than conventional cars.

No No Surfer, out of a forecourt pump by the litre or gallon in to a normal engined cars fuel tank

"Artificial petrol that costs 19p per litre could be on forecourts in as little as three years.
British scientists are refining the recipe for a hydrogen-based fuel that will run in existing cars and engines at the fraction of the cost of conventional petrol.
With hydrogen at its heart rather than carbon, it will not produce any harmful emissions when burnt, making it better for the environment, as well as easier on the wallet.
The first road tests are due next year and, if all goes well, the cut-price ‘petrol’ could be on sale in three to five years.
Professor Stephen Bennington, the project’s lead scientist, said: ‘In some senses, hydrogen is the perfect fuel. It has three times more energy than petrol per unit of weight, and when it burns, it produces nothing but water.
‘Our new hydrogen storage materials offer real potential for running cars, planes and other vehicles that currently use hydrocarbons.’
The fuel is expected to cost around $1.50 a gallon, or 19p a litre. Even with fuel taxes, the forecourt price is likely to be around 60p a litre – less than half the current cost.
That would bring the price of filling a 70-litre Ford Mondeo down to around £42.
Energy from hydrogen can be harnessed by burning the gas or combining it with oxygen in a fuel cell to produce electricity.
But current methods of storing hydrogen are expensive and not very safe.
To get round this, scientists from the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, near Oxford, University College London and Oxford University have found a way of densely packing hydrogen into tiny beads that can be poured or pumped like a liquid."

Do you really think that the government would allow it to happen as they would lose billions in tax never mind the social consequences like unemployment?

 

[JonnyG]

When i was a kid in 1975, NASA said by 2010 we would have bases on the moon where people lived, and space flight would be possible en mass.
We have nuclear energy,and all the worries that brings with it,and yet at the time of the Manhattan project there was an alternative,using a abundant substance instead of plutonium,and a darn site safe and cleaner too [i believe the Norwegians are looking into it today] but we knew about it 60 years ago! but the nuclear industry got its way.
So this might be a great discovery, that doesn't mean we will see it in our lifetime.

Did we need to go to the Moon? Do we need space travel en mass?

How exactly do you equate a fuel that is said to be clean and only produces water when burnt with Nuclear fuel and radiation

Just to repeat, the idea that they are saying is off the starting blocks is a CLEAN fuel, that WORKS in a regular engine

Why concern your heads about LPG conversions or leccy motors. If this stuff is a goer, government that lets it get buried can't claim to be green and should be lynched with the current greeny concerns. Someone will also need to make it in vast quantities and pump and transport it. So surely BP and Shell and Co are up to that

Plus what western government wouldn't wan't to STUFF it up the Arab 'world,' with a push for success the stuff could be the new black gold and Brits could be leaving tanks to overflow and all live like ex Arab tycoons begging people to by a barrel of Opec crude for a $1.50

i actually think you must be already living on the moon,

if this is how your thought process works!!
So far you have been going on about a clean fuel for cars! I mention things that were regarded important to mankind 40 years ago,Go into space was regarded as the way ahead for human race. Expansion of living space, [have you not noticed there are 6 billion of us] looking for new mineral supplies, new land for growing Food sources ! And you brush that all aside, for a topic that so far hasn't exactly been hitting the headlines has it?
Nuclear power, was also regarded as the way forward 60 years ago, it was regarded as a clean cheap power supply! and just look back at its history over the last 60 years! and at least with nuclear power that actually worked!
ATM Chris, you seem to be jumping up and down with joy, for a fuel alternative that hasn't even got off the design table yet.
I hope it does but said it already at 48 years of age, I will put a tenner down it doesn't happen in my working life, and it wont be cheaper to buy than the fuels we use today.
So sorry if i am not jumping up and down, but heard it all before and been disappointed too.But what I do see that is actually already here, is diesel hybrids, cannot understand why its took so long they have a great future but again only if the buying public buy them otherwise just another good idea gone down the drain.

 

[mullsy1]

It would be nice to work it up OPEC certainly but when you look at the importance of fuel taxes ect to the treasury,I just dont believe the costs will be reduced to the public.The government will simply bring in road pricing by the mile and so on.Also ,the governments green credentials are a sham anyway since the majority of green taxes are siphoned off for other treasury black holes.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

i actually think you must be already living on the moon,

if this is how your thought process works!!
Nuclear power, was also regarded as the way forward 60 years ago, it was regarded as a clean cheap power supply! and just look back at its history over the last 60 years! and at least with nuclear power that actually worked!
ATM Chris, you seem to be jumping up and down with joy, for a fuel alternative that hasn't even got off the design table yet.
I hope it does but said it already at 48 years of age, I will put a tenner down it doesn't happen in my working life, and it wont be cheaper to buy than the fuels we use today.
So sorry if i am not jumping up and down, but heard it all before and been disappointed too.
[/quote]
If I was living on the moon the problems your speak of JonnyG would have been solved

Over 75% of Frances electrical power is provided by Nuclear plants and the UK in comparison it is about 20%. Some of our power companies are French owned. If the UK had had and had more nuclear power now we would have less power problems today, so Nuclear isn't off the menu yet by a long chalk.
The difference with this announcement and populating new planets, is that the new planet idea is still pie in the sky and guesswork, The announcement about this new fuel states what they have already done to overcome known problems and given answers of how they have stabilised issues when using hydrogen power.
"The technology has been developed over a four-year top secret programme at the prestigious Rutherford Appleton Laboratory near Oxford, UK.
The development team is led by Professor Stephen Bennington in collaboration with scientists from University College London and Oxford University.
Professor Bennington, Chief Scientific Officer at Cella Energy said, “our technology is based on materials called complex hydrides that contain hydrogen. When encapsulated using our unique patented process, they are safer to handle than regular gasoline.”
"A time and a place" counts for many inventions, and this sort of product has come at a time when the world needs it and as we are reliant on other countries oil production for petrol, surely this is the place. Yes we know fuel will be taxed no matter what, but this stuff could change the world. If the idea came from some backyard boffins well may be you could knock it.
When prestigious foundations are involved and are giving answers to how they have overcome known problems then the drive and impetous will follow to push for the product to succeed quickly.
Cars are not the only things that use petrol JonnyG, if the fuel does run in a standard petrol engine there 's a hell of a lot of things that it will run apart from cars. Also diesel hybrids will still have emmision problems, so how could the succeed over a emission free fuel?
If I'm on the moon thinking wise J G you're living head in sand

, developments just happen far much quicker these days when the market and need is there.

 

[JonnyG]

i actually think you must be already living on the moon,

if this is how your thought process works!!
Nuclear power, was also regarded as the way forward 60 years ago, it was regarded as a clean cheap power supply! and just look back at its history over the last 60 years! and at least with nuclear power that actually worked!
ATM Chris, you seem to be jumping up and down with joy, for a fuel alternative that hasn't even got off the design table yet.
I hope it does but said it already at 48 years of age, I will put a tenner down it doesn't happen in my working life, and it wont be cheaper to buy than the fuels we use today.
So sorry if i am not jumping up and down, but heard it all before and been disappointed too.

If I was living on the moon the problems your speak of JonnyG would have been solved

Over 75% of Frances electrical power is provided by Nuclear plants and the UK in comparison it is about 20%. Some of our power companies are French owned. If the UK had had and had more nuclear power now we would have less power problems today, so Nuclear isn't off the menu yet by a long chalk.
The difference with this announcement and populating new planets, is that the new planet idea is still pie in the sky and guesswork, The announcement about this new fuel states what they have already done to overcome known problems and given answers of how they have stabilised issues when using hydrogen power.
"The technology has been developed over a four-year top secret programme at the prestigious Rutherford Appleton Laboratory near Oxford, UK.
The development team is led by Professor Stephen Bennington in collaboration with scientists from University College London and Oxford University.
Professor Bennington, Chief Scientific Officer at Cella Energy said, “our technology is based on materials called complex hydrides that contain hydrogen. When encapsulated using our unique patented process, they are safer to handle than regular gasoline.”
"A time and a place" counts for many inventions, and this sort of product has come at a time when the world needs it and as we are reliant on other countries oil production for petrol, surely this is the place. Yes we know fuel will be taxed no matter what, but this stuff could change the world. If the idea came from some backyard boffins well may be you could knock it.
When prestigious foundations are involved and are giving answers to how they have overcome known problems then the drive and impetous will follow to push for the product to succeed quickly.
Cars are not the only things that use petrol JonnyG, if the fuel does run in a standard petrol engine there 's a hell of a lot of things that it will run apart from cars. Also diesel hybrids will still have emmision problems, so how could the succeed over a emission free fuel?
If I'm on the moon thinking wise J G you're living head in sand

, developments just happen far much quicker these days when the market and need is there.
[/quote] Chris, let me remind you of what you quoted. "it will be available in 3 to 5 years" also "are hybrid and electric cars dead"

Now if i understand this properly or in simple terms

A hydride is the anion of hydrogen, H−, or a compound in which one or more hydrogen centers have nucleophilic, reducing, or basic properties. In compounds that are regarded as hydrides, hydrogen is bonded to a more electropositive element or group.
So with the simplest understandings, this means that the beads consist of the most basic form of positively ionized hydrogen. I know technology is coming at us fast as we approach the singularity, though it’s safe to say it probably isn’t coming at us this fast.

One final point "zero emissions" i assume this is a reference to co2? what about NOX? we already know the dangers of this stuff thats why we have EGR valves fitted,we also know that gas gives higher NOX ratings than diesel. so with "air" having 80% nitrogen just wondering what this cell stuff will do with the nitrogen,which as you know is extremely harmful when NOX is formed ! or will this sysyem produce h2o=n?

"3 to 5 years" now thats funny..........................

 

[OmOnWeelz]

According to the developers this new synthetic fuel could also be added to Kerosene and Jet fuel and cut aircraft emissions.
With that possibility the aircraft industry will soon pitch in if it has half a chance or are we going to be flying on electric hybrid planes soon

 

[JonnyG]

According to the developers this new synthetic fuel could also be added to Kerosene and Jet fuel and cut aircraft emissions.
With that possibility the aircraft industry will soon pitch in if it has half a chance or are we going to be flying on electric hybrid planes soon

no idea, but then i am not a scientist,and yet have they not been trailing a plane that relies on solar energy!so anything is possible and nothing should be dismissed.
I can see how this new hydrogen cell technology will benefit us, but later rather than sooner and indeed much much later, when we are talking about cars.

 

[JonnyG]

According to the developers this new synthetic fuel could also be added to Kerosene and Jet fuel and cut aircraft emissions.
With that possibility the aircraft industry will soon pitch in if it has half a chance or are we going to be flying on electric hybrid planes soon

no idea, but then i am not a scientist,and yet have they not been trailing a plane that relies on solar energy!so anything is possible and nothing should be dismissed.
I can see how this new hydrogen cell technology will benefit us, but later rather than sooner and indeed much much later, when we are talking about cars.And when it does just remeber it too will be taxed to the hill