May 4, 2005
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Hi Lutz , long time no talk ;O)

Have you a link to somewhere with regard to subtracting the noseweight from max caravan weights.

have looked but can't find

thanks

Brian
 
May 4, 2005
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thanks Lutz

here the dilemma.

Peugeot Partner 2lt hdi

Kerb weight 1311

GVW 1920

GTW 3020 (limit 60 mph)

braked trailer weight (within GTW)

noseweight 70

Caravan MIRO 910

MMTPLM 1160

confused with GTW

Is this ok match

Brian
 
May 4, 2005
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thanks Lutz

here the dilemma.

Peugeot Partner 2lt hdi

Kerb weight 1311

GVW 1920

GTW 3020 (limit 60 mph)

braked trailer weight (within GTW)

noseweight 70

Caravan MIRO 910

MMTPLM 1160

confused with GTW

Is this ok match

Brian
BTW caravan club and Towsure say no
 
Mar 14, 2005
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OK, if the caravan MTPLM is 1160kg and the noseweight is 70kg, then its maximum axle load will be 1090kg. If the GVW of the car is on the limit at 1920kg, then the gross train weight will be 1920kg + 1090kg = 3010kg which is 10kg less than the maximum permissible gross train weight.

Whether it is a good match I can't say, but it would be legal, weightwise.
 
May 4, 2005
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Thanks Lutz , just as I thought but both the caravan Club and Towsure have told him it is illegal.

Do you know if the maximum braked trailer weight changes if restrited to 60mph as hinted in the handbook.

Think I've read renaults doing this somewhere.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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There is no general restriction on maximum permissible speed specifically at maximum braked trailer weight, but the car manufacturer can impose such a restriction if he considers it to be necessary.
 
May 4, 2005
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Thanks again Lutz,

I will phone Peugeot technical dept tomorrow to see if they can give me any info.

Am I right in thinking that if the max speed is kept to 60 the car can tow up to the max GTW (therefore over the 1100kg tow limit)?

Just realised I didn't put that figure in the original post.

braked trailer weight 1100kg (within GTW)
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Thanks Lutz , just as I thought but both the caravan Club and Towsure have told him it is illegal.

Do you know if the maximum braked trailer weight changes if restrited to 60mph as hinted in the handbook.

Think I've read renaults doing this somewhere.
Hello Brian,

Have the CC and Towsure both actually stated the outfit is illegal, or 'not recommend'? There is an important difference.

Many years ago cars were built and there were no details given by the manufactures as to what they could tow. In an effort to help reduce towing problems, the caravan industry decided that a towing ratio of no more than 85% caravan to car was a reasonable compromise. This probably took into account the much lower power outputs from engines in those days as much as the braking efficiency and controllability.

This figure has not been revised in line with technical advances in cars, and the CC (and other UK based caravanning organisations) continue to only recommend outfit matches of 85% or less.

This is unique to the UK, and it has no legal basis on its own. What is required is that and outfit must be operating within its legal limits and not represent a hazard. Note that an outfit that is within its limits may still represent a hazard if mechanically or loaded unsafely or driven badly.

It is now the fact that all new cars sold in the EU have to be type approved, and this process requires car manufacture to establish by tests, what their cars can actually tow. This has led to all cars being rated. Some are not approved to tow anything, and others are rated to tow well beyond 100% These new limits are now accepted by the authorities as the basis for determining load limits. Despite this evidence based testing, the UK caravan industry still buries its head in the sand and ignores this evidence and continues to recommend only up to 85%. (Where it is within the cars stated capability).

Now it does make sense to keep the trailer weight as low as possible compared to the tow vehicle, this should be the goal of every driver but the rigidity of the 85% guideline makes little sense when there is good evidence to the contrary.

Good towing is not simply down to weight ratios, it is affected by the way an outfit is loaded, its mechanical condition, road conditions, and probably the biggest influence is the driving style.

Whilst I argue against the rigidity of the 85% figure, it's intention of keeping trailer weights low is a sensible approach. But don't feel hemmed in by it. The only legal limit is what the car manufacture allows.

The only other limits that can apply is the driver licence categories. If you only have cat B, (not B+E) you are limited to a trailer that cannot weigh more than the kerbweight of the tow car, and a combined outfit weight of less than 3500Kg
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Brian,

The car manufacture MAY place limits on the max speed of a vehicle when towing based on load, but it is not generally the case.

You will need to enquire of the manufacture to clarify if such limits apply to your car.

There are of course the UK national speed limit restrictions that apply. A car and caravan unless a lower restrictions or conditions dictate, is limited to 60Mph on motorways and dual carriage ways and 50mph on other roads
 
May 4, 2005
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Hi John, the customer told me they said it would be illegal. The caravan Club even said thet would not insure him . They then said that if it was proved he was over 85% they would not pay out as their policy stated he must stick to 85%. Sounds rubbish to me but that is as he told me.

I insure with the club so will check my policy to see if such a clause exists.

I know that this outfit is a good match based on the figures given and will check with peugeot as the handbook implies that he can tow up to GTW if the speed is restricted.

Even if he can't he is still below max tow limit and 85% come to that.

Brian
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Obviously, someone doesn't know what they are talking about, Brian, and is giving misleading information. Certainly if the MTPLM of the caravan is 1160kg and its noseweight 70kg, then its braked trailer weight is only 1090kg, because its brakes only act on the wheels, i.e. the axle load.

It is conceivable that the braked trailer weight limit of 1100kg may be exceeded if the speed is restricted to 60mph. That is a condition that the car manufacturer can apply. However, the gross train weight must never be exceeded under any circumstances. For example, if the braked trailer weight is 1200kg, then the car's GVW must not exceed the 3020kg GTW - 1200kg = 1820kg, and the speed would then be restricted to 60mph. That is how I interpret the figures given. However, as you say, it would be worth having my interpretation confirmed by Peugeot.
 
Jul 9, 2001
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Vauxhall state that in a Zafira if towing upto a max speed of 100kmh you can exceed the standard rear axle load by 75kg (nose weight) and still tow 1500 braked weight. Therefore on the weight plate the GTW is 1575kg more than the GVW.

If you weren't confused enough!!!
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Is it not the case that the rear axle load may be exceeded by 75kg when towing but this does not result in an equivalent increase the gross vehicle weight? In other words, if you increase the rear axle load, you must reduce the front axle load by the same amount if you are right on the GVW limit. Otherwise, the GVW would also have to specifically be increased when towing, as well.
 
Jul 9, 2001
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As this is stated in the car handbook, not on the weightplate, I wonder what the legal position is....

The door plate states a difference in the GVW and the GTW of 1575. In the handbook it states that if you are towing:

When the caravan / trailer is coupled and

the towing vehicle fully loaded (including

all occupants), the permissible rear axle

load (see identification plate or vehicle

documents) may be exceeded by 90 kg

and the Gross Vehicle Weight rating

by 75 kg. If the permissible rear axle load is

exceeded, a maximum speed of 60 mph

(100 km/h). applies. If national regulations

specify a lower maximum speed for

vehicles towing a caravan / trailer, this

must be observed.

Copied from the Zafira handbook available online at www.vauxhall.co.uk
 
Mar 14, 2005
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OK, that makes it clear to me now. Obviously, both the rear axle load AND the GVW may be exceeded by 75kg when towing, but this does not increase the gross train weight. In other words, if you make use of the increased gross train weight, then the towload is reduced by the same amount. If, as you say, the difference between the GVW and GTW on the vehicle plate is 1575kg, then this reduces to 1500kg if you exceed the GVW by 75kg.
 
Jul 9, 2001
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Lutz

That is also my understanding, however my only concern is that is the car handbook a legal document, and could you be in trouble for exceeding the car's weight plate figures?
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Of course, it is not a legal document, but in case of doubt or need, I am sure Vauxhall would, upon request, provide such a document.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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For reasons already given, even if the maximum permissible towload is reduced to 1500kg through the increase in GVW, it still means that you can tow a caravan with an MTPLM of 1575kg. If you don't load the car up to the increased limit, but stay within the regular GVW and the specified gross train weight, you could even tow a caravan with an MTPLM of 1650kg.
 
May 4, 2005
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Spoke to the CC . What a patronising lot they are. They say only to go by max weight on caravan and had never heard of deducting noseweight.

Brian
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Obviously they don't appreciate the difference between trailer weight and towload/braked trailer weight. :)
 
Jul 9, 2001
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Lutz

Even though I feel 85% is outdated, I am not sure about putting a 1650kg caravan on the back of a Zafira!!!
 
Mar 14, 2005
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No, I wouldn't either, but those towloads apply to trailers in general, not just caravans, and a 1650kg low loader trailer behind a Zafira may be quite OK.
 

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