First drive in an EV

[Sam Vimes]

At this risk of showing off I'm here in New Zealand for a number of weeks visiting our family. We've been away in their caravan which is a completely different experience from back home.

However, they've let us borrow their EV car to get around in and its the first time I've driven such a vehicle.

Its a 2012 Nissan Leaf, which is old technology these days. Its rated at 24Kw and when new supposedly had a range of 117Km. The battery life is now at 50% so the range is somewhat less than new.

Its a Japanese import and unfortunately many of the more detailed options and controls are in Japanese and its not that easy to get it updated to English. Google translate has given us a good idea of what many of the controls are but when an audible warnings sounds a pleasant Japanees lady starts shouting, especially when the range is getting low. The GPS is for Japan only but then you don't need GPS in NZ very often.

Its a novell driving experience. I've mostly used it in Eco and Regenerative mode because the max range now is about 76Km. Its enough for the family to do the school run,work run or shopping. Out of Eco mode it goes like a rocket and you get noticeably pushed back into the seat if you put your foot down, But then the battery charge drops dramatically. Also use of Air Con drops the charge significantly. The heated seats and heated steering wheel wouldn't help either.

Looking through the manual it looks like you can cool the car when on charge so that could reduce the use of the Air Con for short journey.

Yesterday we did a 32Km round trip and got back home with 55% of the battery left. Didn't use the air con so got a bit cooked . Not many charging points around and not only was I keeping an eye on the speed but also the state of the battery.

Its a small car and so has a small car ride which is to say you feel all the bumps and lumps in the road.

Can't say its tempted me to switch but there are a number of factors that make it impractical for us.

Oh well back to the sunshine

 

[Hutch]

Let's wait for the EV positive folk,
Myself I think, Hydrogen fuel cell technology will become the best way to go..

 

[otherclive]

At this risk of showing off I'm here in New Zealand for a number of weeks visiting our family. We've been away in their caravan which is a completely different experience from back home.

However, they've let us borrow their EV car to get around in and its the first time I've driven such a vehicle.

Its a 2012 Nissan Leaf, which is old technology these days. Its rated at 24Kw and when new supposedly had a range of 117Km. The battery life is now at 50% so the range is somewhat less than new.

Its a Japanese import and unfortunately many of the more detailed options and controls are in Japanese and its not that easy to get it updated to English. Google translate has given us a good idea of what many of the controls are but when an audible warnings sounds a pleasant Japanees lady starts shouting, especially when the range is getting low. The GPS is for Japan only but then you don't need GPS in NZ very often.

Its a novell driving experience. I've mostly used it in Eco and Regenerative mode because the max range now is about 76Km. Its enough for the family to do the school run,work run or shopping. Out of Eco mode it goes like a rocket and you get noticeably pushed back into the seat if you put your foot down, But then the battery charge drops dramatically. Also use of Air Con drops the charge significantly. The heated seats and heated steering wheel wouldn't help either.

Looking through the manual it looks like you can cool the car when on charge so that could reduce the use of the Air Con for short journey.

Yesterday we did a 32Km round trip and got back home with 55% of the battery left. Didn't use the air con so got a bit cooked . Not many charging points around and not only was I keeping an eye on the speed but also the state of the battery.

Its a small car and so has a small car ride which is to say you feel all the bumps and lumps in the road.

Can't say its tempted me to switch but there are a number of factors that make it impractical for us.

Oh well back to the sunshine

Ever since it came out the Leaf has had a rock solid reputation for reliability but it was never going to set the world alight. The Mk 2 is a big improvement but still bettered by many of the competitors. I suppose at 10 years old and only 50% battery capacity it’s relegated to be a very local runabout. Whereas a well maintained ICE car will still have maximum range and ac available.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I think I might wait for the Fusion Powered versions.

Battery life should have been obvious to me but I didn't really think about it much until now. They've looked into replacement but there are few places that can do it and I'm sure they said about 7000/8000 NZ$, which would be about 3500/4000 UK£.

As mentioned earlier you don't really think about replacing an ICE engine and turning on all the additional features, air con etc seldom requires thinking about either.

FYI. The car has done just under 93,000km

 

[Buckman]

Let's wait for the EV positive folk,
Myself I think, Hydrogen fuel cell technology will become the best way to go..

I think you are correct as that would be our choice as it has less impact on the environment.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Hydrogen fuel cells may be appear more eco friendly but one of the problems I see with adoption of this is that EV vehicles are already established by which I mean there is a charging infrastructure in place already that is growing all the time.

Supporting cars with Hydrogen fuel cells will need a lot of catching up. I doubt that you'll be able to do this at home like you can with current EV vehicles.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hydrogen is presently considerably more expensive, to produce and use compared to BEV's, and with a number of well known difficulties about storage, and large scale production It's very unlikely to become the primary energy source for cars.

In terms of energy efficiency, from raw material to motive power, There are energy losses at each stage of the production, storage, transport and use of hydrogen in vehicles. compared to Battery Electric Vehicles, it's very unlikely the Hydrogen power will ever achieve the same overall energy efficiency It makes far more sense to use the energy needed to manufacture hydrogen to be put directly into a BEV.

Where Hydrogen has been used in cars, the most effective solution is to use a fuel cell, But what has not been discussed at any great length is the life expectancy of the fuel cells and the maintenance they require.

With the present state of development Hydrogen is never going to be a front runner. Whether it will ever be a realistic contender for personal transport will depend on some significant new developments bringing down both the financial and environment costs of Hydrogen production at scale and storage and distribution.

(Edit)Most car manufacturers are not even entertaining the idea Fuel Cell Vehicles running on Hydrogen. and those that have produced some Hydrogen powered vehicles are not promoting them. If hard headed businesses are not investing in a hydrogen future you can be certain there is good reason for it.

VW has published a document
"Battery Electric Vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell: Efficiency Comparison"

Battery Electric Vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell: Efficiency Comparison

Volkswagen recently released a quite interesting comparison of the battery-electric and hydrogen fuel cell path to zero-emission mobility.

insideevs.com

One telling statement reveals the differential energy efficiency comparison between BEV and FCV
"The hydrogen fuel cell requires 2-3 times more energy to drive the same distance, as the overall Well-to-Wheel efficiency is from 25-35% "

There are cases where Hydrogen could be a sensible approach, typically transport fleets with hubs operations such as busses, and possibly HGV long distance working between hubs.

 

[Tobes]

At this risk of showing off I'm here in New Zealand for a number of weeks visiting our family. We've been away in their caravan which is a completely different experience from back home.

However, they've let us borrow their EV car to get around in and its the first time I've driven such a vehicle.

Its a 2012 Nissan Leaf, which is old technology these days. Its rated at 24Kw and when new supposedly had a range of 117Km. The battery life is now at 50% so the range is somewhat less than new.

Its a Japanese import and unfortunately many of the more detailed options and controls are in Japanese and its not that easy to get it updated to English. Google translate has given us a good idea of what many of the controls are but when an audible warnings sounds a pleasant Japanees lady starts shouting, especially when the range is getting low. The GPS is for Japan only but then you don't need GPS in NZ very often.

Its a novell driving experience. I've mostly used it in Eco and Regenerative mode because the max range now is about 76Km. Its enough for the family to do the school run,work run or shopping. Out of Eco mode it goes like a rocket and you get noticeably pushed back into the seat if you put your foot down, But then the battery charge drops dramatically. Also use of Air Con drops the charge significantly. The heated seats and heated steering wheel wouldn't help either.

Looking through the manual it looks like you can cool the car when on charge so that could reduce the use of the Air Con for short journey.

Yesterday we did a 32Km round trip and got back home with 55% of the battery left. Didn't use the air con so got a bit cooked . Not many charging points around and not only was I keeping an eye on the speed but also the state of the battery.

Its a small car and so has a small car ride which is to say you feel all the bumps and lumps in the road.

Can't say its tempted me to switch but there are a number of factors that make it impractical for us.

Oh well back to the sunshine

An interesting read Sam. The 24kWh leaf was an amazing car in its day (and in some ways still is) but its battery chemistry and thermal management are showing their age, which is why the batteries show their age too. Newer vehicles with active liquid cooling have a much lower degradation over time. It is still a good introduction to one of the nice things about an EV (almost any EV) - the driving style. The mix of extremely smooth traction with that hit of instant torque when you want it.

I would love to know how your family charge it, and what it costs per mile in NZ? Do they have solar panels to help charge it?

 

[Sam Vimes]

An interesting read Sam. The 24kWh leaf was an amazing car in its day (and in some ways still is) but its battery chemistry and thermal management are showing their age, which is why the batteries show their age too. Newer vehicles with active liquid cooling have a much lower degradation over time. It is still a good introduction to one of the nice things about an EV (almost any EV) - the driving style. The mix of extremely smooth traction with that hit of instant torque when you want it.

I would love to know how your family charge it, and what it costs per mile in NZ? Do they have solar panels to help charge it?

They mostly charge from home. From about a 55% level it takes about 5-6 hours. I don't know what their electicity costs are. Strangely enough and considering the abundance of solar energy, solar panels are not widely used here. The leaf has a small solar panel just to top up the 12v battery.

The nearest 50Kw charge station costs NZ$0.40 per Kwh - thats about 20p. That's at the top of the South Island. Around Auckland its double that plus some will charge $1 per minute after charging - that kicks in after 5 mins from charge. The app and some cars will notify you when it's charged.

Discovered also what the manual calls Single Pedal driving. This means that in ECO and B mode you can just drive without using the brake, although there's a big caution with that. You need to leave plenty of room to slow down by just taking the foot off the accelerator. I tried it on a Sunday when it was quieter and it certainly slows down quicker than my ICE car when coasting but again you need to judge carefully when to release the accelerator.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I should add that deisel here is about NZ$2.28 per litre. However deisel powered vehicles also have to buy a Road User Charge license in 1000km bundles. For their Santa Fe that's about NZ$76 per 1000Km.

Petrol is more expensive but has no Road User Charge.

 

[Buckman]

They mostly charge from home. From about a 55% level it takes about 5-6 hours. I don't know what their electicity costs are. Strangely enough and considering the abundance of solar energy, solar panels are not widely used here. The leaf has a small solar panel just to top up the 12v battery.

The nearest 50Kw charge station costs NZ$0.40 per Kwh - thats about 20p. That's at the top of the South Island. Around Auckland its double that plus some will charge $1 per minute after charging - that kicks in after 5 mins from charge. The app and some cars will notify you when it's charged.

Discovered also what the manual calls Single Pedal driving. This means that in ECO and B mode you can just drive without using the brake, although there's a big caution with that. You need to leave plenty of room to slow down by just taking the foot off the accelerator. I tried it on a Sunday when it was quieter and it certainly slows down quicker than my ICE car when coasting but again you need to judge carefully when to release the accelerator.

As their power stations supply ample energy at a reasonable cost there is no need for solar panels to power homes or top up the grid

 

[otherclive]

As their power stations supply ample energy at a reasonable cost there is no need for solar panels to power homes or top up the grid

What powers their power stations? I guess hydro might be a substantial part of their energy mix. Or burning sheep’s wool perhaps 🐏

 

[Tobes]

They mostly charge from home. From about a 55% level it takes about 5-6 hours. I don't know what their electicity costs are. Strangely enough and considering the abundance of solar energy, solar panels are not widely used here. The leaf has a small solar panel just to top up the 12v battery.

Really interesting that solar is not significant, but 20p per kWh on a local rapid would suggest energy costs in NZ are low.

The nearest 50Kw charge station costs NZ$0.40 per Kwh - thats about 20p. That's at the top of the South Island. Around Auckland its double that plus some will charge $1 per minute after charging - that kicks in after 5 mins from charge. The app and some cars will notify you when it's charged.

Discovered also what the manual calls Single Pedal driving. This means that in ECO and B mode you can just drive without using the brake, although there's a big caution with that. You need to leave plenty of room to slow down by just taking the foot off the accelerator. I tried it on a Sunday when it was quieter and it certainly slows down quicker than my ICE car when coasting but again you need to judge carefully when to release the accelerator.

Single pedal drive, or OPD (one pedal drive) is one of the luxuries of EVs. Most have some form of this or other, using lift off from the accelerator to induce regeneration braking. On my Polestar, regen is very strong (something like 200kW) which is like slamming on the brakes if you allow it all to engage at once. You have to get used to it, but when you do, driving in that mode becomes second nature. It is a love it or hate it thing. SWMBO does't like it at all and prefers controlling braking using the brake pedal. But even there, you are not really using the brakes, just the regen, unless you call for more stopping power than regen can give you alone. It's a very clever (and efficient system).

 

[Dustydog]

With no wish to start WW3 , I saw a Tesla pull out of a slip road in front of a fast moving car on the A419.
Cars badly damaged. Police shut the road for a few hours. The Tesla needed specialist recovery which didn’t happen for four hours plus.
I just assumed the Tesla insurers were slower off the mark or the bloke didn’t have breakdown cover.
Today by coincidence this arrived
https://www.insurancetimes.co.uk/ne...and-the-risks-of-ev-accidents/1441012.article

Very interesting.

 

[Buckman]

With no wish to start WW3 , I saw a Tesla pull out of a slip road in front of a fast moving car on the A419.
Cars badly damaged. Police shut the road for a few hours. The Tesla needed specialist recovery which didn’t happen for four hours plus.
I just assumed the Tesla insurers were slower off the mark or the bloke didn’t have breakdown cover.
Today by coincidence this arrived
https://www.insurancetimes.co.uk/ne...and-the-risks-of-ev-accidents/1441012.article

Very interesting.

It is interesting and could be a matter for concern for many.

 

[Tobes]

DD - there definitely needs to be more training for fire and recovery crews, but I don't think its any harder, just different. Spotting structural damage to a battery is perhaps a little trickier than to a fuel tank (one will leak, the other wont), but the damage to a battery will have to be massive before there is a risk of fire or electrocution.
And I would much rather take my chances with a battery than a fuel tank - and especially over say a hydrogen tank, that has a much higher risk of explosion with a leak.

But still I agree - the industry is learning what is dangerous and what it not. What is interesting is that article is from May 2022 - so we have had another 9 months of learning since then. Certainly, our new Fiat 500e is one of the cheapest cars we have had to insure, and its also the 2nd most costly! (Go figure)...

 

[ProfJohnL]

Whenever a new technology becomes available to the public, the emergency services have to review and retrain as necessary. This process is nothing new and the services have been revising training and practices constantly. But what is perhaps somewhat different is the ferocity of the way some batteries behave. and that may take some crew by surprise until the appropriate training has been rolled out.

Vehicle manufacturers should be designing their products to protect the vulnerable parts, and there are types of battery being developed that are inherently more secure against external damage. A Chinese producer is now using a battery that can withstand punctures !

As more modern cars displace older ones of all types collision avoidance systems which should reduce the incident rate going forward. Of course it won't be a complete solution compared to older cars.

I wonder how the fire and rescue service might cope with hydrogen leak?

 

[Sam Vimes]

As their power stations supply ample energy at a reasonable cost there is no need for solar panels to power homes or top up the grid

Its true that the generation and supply costs are cheaper here compared to the UK, ranging from about 23c to 43c per unit depending on where you live. Most comes from renewalable sources and supply costs were not largely affected by the rise in wholesale gas prices.

Petrol/deisel prices also cheaper than the UK.

But, you have to take into account the cost of living. Generally we find NZ more expensive for normal everyday living. Taxes, range from 10.5% to 39% but every dollar is taxed - no allowances. GST is 15% on goods and services ( better than Vat at 20%) but the base prices are usually higher.

A visit to the doctor will cost you NZ$70 just to shake hands

Shopping this week we got a box of Kellogs cereal for just over NZ$11 - roughly UKP6. At Tescos its UKP3. Most food prices including locally grown are higher and we've noticed that some NZ produce at home is cheaper than here and sometimes better quality.

So I would have thought that the opportunity to make any savings would be worth considering. Solar installations cost about the same as the Uk and it would be interesting to see what the payback period would be baring in mind lower mains supply electricity costs but also higher sunshine rates - depending where you live.

My daughter works in the area of Resouce Consent - sort of Town and Country planning - and when i aksed about why there's not a lot of adoption of home solar panels, she said its because most incomes are lower than the uk per se and disposable income is less. It's why a lot of Kiwis go to Australia to live and work.

Just a note about carvanning - UK caravans are much in evidence here. A 2022 Swift Challenger 650 for example will cost about NZ$80k +orc. That's more than UKP40K. One UK dealer has this for just over UKP27K

 

[Buckman]

I wonder how the fire and rescue service might cope with hydrogen leak?

That should not be a concern as it will disperse into the atmosphere as a hydrogen tank in a vehicle may have a design similar to a Safefill bottle.

 

[Sam Vimes]

It's my understanding that Hydrogen even in low concentrations is highly inflammable.

Remember the R101.

 

[Tobes]

That should not be a concern as it will disperse into the atmosphere as a hydrogen tank in a vehicle may have a design similar to a Safefill bottle.

A hydrogen tank is _nothing_ like a propane tank by design. Other than the name “tank” they are totally different. Propane is stored at between 100 and 200 PSI. Hydrogen is at 10,000 PSI. Hydrogen tanks and filling systems have as much in common with propane as propane does with petrol.
Having said that, are they safe in cars? Yes. Because they are built with safety in mind - just like propane, or petrol or batteries.

 

[RogerL]

A hydrogen tank is _nothing_ like a propane tank by design. Other than the name “tank” they are totally different. Propane is stored at between 100 and 200 PSI. Hydrogen is at 10,000 PSI. Hydrogen tanks and filling systems have as much in common with propane as propane does with petrol.
Having said that, are they safe in cars? Yes. Because they are built with safety in mind - just like propane, or petrol or batteries.

Cars already have parts of their fuel systems which run at higher pressures than 10,000 psi - modern common rail engines, petrol and diesel, run at 2,000-2,500 bar which is 29,000-36,000 psi

 

[Tobes]

Cars already have parts of their fuel systems which run at higher pressures than 10,000 psi - modern common rail engines, petrol and diesel, run at 2,000-2,500 bar which is 29,000-36,000 psi

Indeed. But they hold tiny amounts of fuel, enough for a few combustion cycles, not all the fuel in the car. They are not a tank. But they are safe. Just as a hydrogen tank in a car is, or a battery is.

 

[Buckman]

Cars already have parts of their fuel systems which run at higher pressures than 10,000 psi - modern common rail engines, petrol and diesel, run at 2,000-2,500 bar which is 29,000-36,000 psi

Not forgetting cars that run on LPG which was a standard manufacture fitment would have had to pass various stringent tests for them to be used on public road.