Freelander 2 problems

[RayS]

My Frrelander 2 gsi is 7 years old with only 40,000 miles. It has been regularly serviced by a highly rated garage with staff experienced wit LandRovers and was last serviced Novembr 2019 also Mot with no problems. I ave been driving turbodiesel vehicles since 1992 including other 4xl4s as the tow car for our caravans. All have had towing capabilities way above that necessary for the caravans and have been treated well - previous to 1992 I did very high business milage and looked after my cars and still do so. The car has used premium diesel particularly when towing and the engine always allowed to idle for some minutes before switching off after a long towing run or in very hot weather.
While in Spain earlier this year - the southbound trip through France to SE Spain requiring no hard driving or anything unusual. Once on site the usual local shopping trips solo. One evening on switching on the engine did not start immediately and when it did displayed warning REDUCED PERFORMANCE with the warning symbol for Engine/Transmission on together with red triangle flashing.. I drove a short distance, stopped the engine, waited some minutes and tried again as EMUs have been known to reset after such incidents, but the same fault warnings appeared.
Having Red Pennant insurance I arranged for the car to be transported to a main LandRover agent - probably the largest in SE Spain for diagnosis. The resulting email was a nasty surprise saying the turbo was broken and giving an estimate to repair of around 2500 euro.
I questioned the nature of the fault and received an email in English from the technical manager saying the actuator had failed and that replacement of the entire turbo unit was the only repair. To cut a long story short the work was carried over the next two weeks, so delays with Spanish administration which could not compe with the fact our house in UK does not have a number !

None of my contacts - many of them caravaners and some in the motor trade have ever experienced such a failure at such low mileage. The engine is, I believe , of Ford origin as is the auto gearbox and ECU.
Obviously the car is well out of warranty, but I have approached LandRover UK (the selling dealer didn't want to knw and was in lockdown with the view that since there is no scheduled maintenance for the turbo unit at this sort of mileage, then the probability is that the engine had an inherent fault from new and it would be appropriate for this to be recognised. To date i have not received acknowledgement or reply.

Does anyone with long diesel experience have any comments about this failure, or knowledge of a history of such with Ford engines , perhaps in motorhomes.
( We got the car back immediately before an enforced 1500mile rapid tow back to Eurotunnel which added considerably to the apprehension and worry. )

 

[camel]

I had something similar when I had a mondeo out of warranty but with only 23000 on the clock, I started to here a very slight missing noise coming from the engine and I knew what the problem was straight away it was an injector on its way out, I went back to the dealership and explained the problem and that you don't get injector problems at 23,000, needless to say they did not want to know apart from releasing me of a few quid short of a grand, eventually I ended up paying £700.00 for a full set of injectors why have I bought a Kuga because that mondeo was the worst load of rubbish I ever had in fact it failed its first mot,

 

[Gafferbill]

Turbochargers are a highly stressed engine component and it has always amazed me how reliable they normally are.
They do fail and if the engine is out of warranty then you just have to accept it as a motoring cost.
They are a bolt on component as far as the engine manufacturer is concerned being made by specialist manufacturers with only those makers able to work on them.
Because of this problems with a turbocharger are nearly always dealt with by fitting a replacement unit.......they are not cheap!
The Garrett turbocharger on my Nissan towcar suffered failed oil seals at 104000 miles and this cost me £1000 for a new unit which I fitted myself.
The cost of replacement with fitment quoted for your Freelander seems about right to me.

 

[Tuningdrew]

Actuator failure is a fairly common problem on the FL2. Agree it’s a bit early but can be caused by the rod between the actuator and turbo siezing up particularly if driven very gently. Salt on the roads exacerbates it. More serious is if the variable vanes inside the exhaust side of the turbo Are siezed or jammed which requires a bit of dismantling and cleaning. Replacement actuators are £150 or so. I had the Garrett turbo on my Mercedes ML fully reconditioned for about £350 by Midland Turbos including a replacement actuator as the vanes had been sticking. Depends how easy it is to get the turbo on and off as to how much the labour would be. Sounds like El Garage just bought a new one and popped it on. They are a fairly simple item to service if need be. Couple of little bearings and seals and the vanes to clean up.

 

[RayS]

I have just received reply from JLR concerning my complain about turbo failure on Freelander 2 at 40,000 miles. You will not be surprised to hear that they offered no comment of financial assistance, mere to stress that I could have avoided the cost by taking out insurance.
Had I been in UK my local garage could have had the turrbo refurbished and refitted at reasonable cost, but I was in Southern Spain just at the start of the covid panic so absolutely no choice.
Quick sum suggests that the sort of insurance mentioned would have cost about the same over the years as did the repair, so it's lose/lose which anyway.
Thanks for the replies

 

[RayS]

Too late for me by a year but may help others. Just read in Honest John that there current Sale of Goods/PA legislation that states that a manufacturer is still responsible for redress about major failures for up to 6 years after purchase on grounds that the expected durability of the goods has not been maintained. The case concerned an Audi with sunroof where the structure had cracked at a corner.
So if it's major - and I think a failed turbo would qualify given the size of the repair bill - might be worth getting familiar with this small print.

 

[otherclive]

Too late for me by a year but may help others. Just read in Honest John that there current Sale of Goods/PA legislation that states that a manufacturer is still responsible for redress about major failures for up to 6 years after purchase on grounds that the expected durability of the goods has not been maintained. The case concerned an Audi with sunroof where the structure had cracked at a corner.
So if it's major - and I think a failed turbo would qualify given the size of the repair bill - might be worth getting familiar with this small print.

Trouble with turbo failures is proving it is down to a design or manufacturing defect after 6 years. Things like oil condition, correct oil type, cooling off after hot runs etc will all affect turbo life and would be exceedingly difficult to prove. Only if there were lots of similar component failures with a reasonably diagnosed cause would a case be likely. Then who do you take the case to? CRA 2015 requires the case to be dealt with by the seller not maker.

 

[Raywood]

I agree with Otherclive as to the legal position. The Audi one looks fairly easy to show it was a faulty build, but six years is not always the case and is probably extreme.
In this case it would be necessary to show that the item was faulty when sold and as this is probably on a dump in Spain that would be very difficult. It might be possible to show there was an inherent defect in the design or manufacture, but this would need considerable research although if you can show enough failed at this sort of mileage you might have a case. It will need some research using various internet forums.

 

[JezzerB]

I'd agree-a failure like this would require VERY well documented and probably main dealer service history to back it up. Friend had massive issues proving their Kia Sportage with a 7 year warranty should be fixed under warranty when the big end went-as they'd had one service with an independent-fortunately the indy was meticulous in his records and could prove oem spec service items!!!Took some work though.

 

[otherclive]

I'd agree-a failure like this would require VERY well documented and probably main dealer service history to back it up. Friend had massive issues proving their Kia Sportage with a 7 year warranty should be fixed under warranty when the big end went-as they'd had one service with an independent-fortunately the indy was meticulous in his records and could prove oem spec service items!!!Took some work though.

Agreed but even a meticulous service history wouldn’t necessarily support any remedial action. How do you prove that the turbo hasn’t been used fir a lot of very short journeys even when the cars annual mileage isn’t high. Alternatively the cars mileage might be low but if used primarily for towing how can the owner prove that the engine wasn’t regularly turned off immediately after loaded running when arriving at services or destination for example. A class action would really be the way ahead but these are rare in UK.
Generally though the FL2 is considered a pretty reliable car as Ford did a good job on that one. My sons 08 auto has only had an issue with a back axle bearing and JLR replaced that when the car was well out of warranty as it was a known shortcoming.

 

[JTQ]

I agree with "Clive" in that IMO there is zero chance, even where times scales would allow the CRA 2015 to apply for the failure reported.

IMO it is almost certain what is flagged up as "an actuator failure" is the consequences of the hot end nozzle vanes getting "sticky", overloading the actuator stepper, or something lost in translation in this case?
This is a very common fault with variable geometry turbos where the vehicle is not routinely "trashed" so they are forced to keep switching, so self decoking the various bearings, linkage etc.

Typically in owner driven diesels cars we are just too kind to ask the engine to really gather its skirts and develop near full power. This is compounded by often we have lovely big high powered engines which in reality we never ask to go to full power. [The vanes switch position between lower and higher powers so one size turbo fits all the power range.]

Towing, ought to help but the modest speed limits are low enough that more often than not full power is never required, plus we tend to tow with good grace, not practice rapid accelerating that would push the turbo into switching very much.

So, back to the CRA 2015. It is very unlikely it ever was a manufacturing fault, far from easy to prove this particular one happened to be, rather than the same coking up of the vanes so many suffer from. Suffer, because "we", me included, don't thrash it frequently enough.

I would suspect motor homes suffer less, they have lowly rated engines and run at near 100% mass every mile they travel, so IMO are much more likely to "work" their turbos.

It is a "moot point" whether an after warranty insurance would automatically pay out, many IME have a little clause stating that issues relating to "coking" are excluded; a savvy assessor would realise hot end vane failures are near 100% coking issues.
Make a habit of "gunning" your diesel, a bit like white van man, but we need to do it less often and not sustained. Provoke lots of frequent switching the vanes, that is the thing to do, they like it, they hate it not happening.

 

[otherclive]

I agree with "Clive" in that IMO there is zero chance, even where times scales would allow the CRA 2015 to apply for the failure reported.

IMO it is almost certain what is flagged up as "an actuator failure" is the consequences of the hot end nozzle vanes getting "sticky", overloading the actuator stepper, or something lost in translation in this case?
This is a very common fault with variable geometry turbos where the vehicle is not routinely "trashed" so they are forced to keep switching, so self decoking the various bearings, linkage etc.

Typically in owner driven diesels cars we are just too kind to ask the engine to really gather its skirts and develop near full power. This is compounded by often we have lovely big high powered engines which in reality we never ask to go to full power. [The vanes switch position between lower and higher powers so one size turbo fits all the power range.]

Towing, ought to help but the modest speed limits are low enough that more often than not full power is never required, plus we tend to tow with good grace, not practice rapid accelerating that would push the turbo into switching very much.

So, back to the CRA 2015. It is very unlikely it ever was a manufacturing fault, far from easy to prove this particular one happened to be, rather than the same coking up of the vanes so many suffer from. Suffer, because "we", me included, don't thrash it frequently enough.

I would suspect motor homes suffer less, they have lowly rated engines and run at near 100% mass every mile they travel, so IMO are much more likely to "work" their turbos.

It is a "moot point" whether an after warranty insurance would automatically pay out, many IME have a little clause stating that issues relating to "coking" are excluded; a savvy assessor would realise hot end vane failures are near 100% coking issues.
Make a habit of "gunning" your diesel, a bit like white van man, but we need to do it less often and not sustained. Provoke lots of frequent switching the vanes, that is the thing to do, they like it, they hate it not happening.

When our second cars were turbo diesels (Mondeo and Note) I would accelerate them hard on the occasions I drove them and the amount of crud thrown out was unbelievable. It became a regular feature approaching MOT time and they both passed with flying colours.

When I was gainfully employed the generators were driven by Paxman Ventura or Valenta engines very similar to British Rail diesels. Yet when it came to refit time the BR engines had run many more hours and at high load than ours had. But overall their internals showed a lot less wear than did our more lightly loaded generator engines which often spent long periods at 25% power or less.

 

[JTQ]

When I was gainfully employed the generators were driven by Paxman Ventura or Valenta engines very similar to British Rail diesels

I know them very well

 

[otherclive]

I know them very well

I dont know whether to offer congratulations or

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm sorry but at 7 years old you were definitely onto a loser with JLR or virtually any car make except perhaps Kia. If you purchased the car second hand less than 6 years ago, and the seller claimed the car was fully sound in all respects, you might have a claim route through the CRA which gives a maximum of 6 (5 years in Scotland) years cover from the point of sale, however the onus is on the owner to provide enough compelling evidence that either the fault was present at the point of sale, or that the goods were of insufficient quality and should not have failed.

In reality I don't think it would be worth the effort because the seller can point to the fact the fault has only just become apparent, and up until the fault arose you have had good service which has a value, and quite legitimately the seller can discount the good service against the cost of the repair/replacement.

You would not get the full value of the replacement. As a guide if a part costs say £600, in the first year the seller would probably be expected to bear the entire cost. but in the 6th a seller may only be liable for 1/6th of the cost, meaning you would still have to find the balance of 5/6ths.

It is one of the facts of life that highly technical products like cars are likely to have an increasing failure rate as they get older. The law requires them to have satisfactory quality as set out in the CRA, but judgements about what is a reasonable life expectancy of a product are rarely set in concrete but are considered on a case by case basis, and can take into account subsidiary evidence about the balance of probability of a product having less than optimal use or care which might affect its reasonable durability.

 

[Buckman]

At 7 years old CRA 2015 would not apply anyway!

 

[JezzerB]

As above and what I was trying to point out is that 'even 'with it's 7 year warranty Kia haggled hard-think you really are a hiding for nothing and mileage as Clive says is or could be part of the problem-low mileage on a diesel can and probably is more harmful than mega miles.

 

[Buckman]

As above and what I was trying to point out is that 'even 'with it's 7 year warranty Kia haggled hard-think you really are a hiding for nothing and mileage as Clive says is or could be part of the problem-low mileage on a diesel can and probably is more harmful than mega miles.

Apparently diesels like to be driven hard as that clears the system promoting better running performance. At 40k miles it has not yet been run in.

 

[otherclive]

Apparently diesels like to be driven hard as that clears the system promoting better running performance. At 40k miles it has not yet been run in.

That’s why some ships diesel generators powering hotel load often used to run at 25 % power or less as there were always two operating. It’s better now that single generator operation is allowed under normal cruise conditions. Also trend to integrated electric propulsion allows better loading of diesels. Yes diesel revel in hard work.

 

[JezzerB]

And of course newer diesels with the DPF need a good blast at motorway speeds for 20-30 ins to get the regeneration of the dpf done! Not easy at the mo as we're not able to caravan-soon though!!!1

 

[Robert_374373903]

I have had diesel engines for many years and until our Skoda with 35000 on the clock never had troubles with turbo , but his one went and had to be replaced. The fitter remarked that I have been too gentle with it and give it some "welly" at times . With the motorhomes which had diesels I always gave it a clear out and as said never had problems apart from one injector going faulty.

 

[RayS]

I know them very well

Me too, Paxman was one of my major customers for engine and testbed instrumentation and many an order for thermocouples went through my hands. I saw one Ventura on test break it’s crank at max power on test, and sorted out the multiple installations at RAF radar sites. plus BR workshops in east London. Napier Deltic was another favourite