gas disaster

[Dustydog]

January my regular dealer changed the gas grill burners. A spinflo. First time away the grill doesn't light. The oven, never a previous problem' blew up. Oddly the gas knob didn't feel right. It didn't push in whdn you you tdy snx light up. Oven went out . I pressex thd knob and the knob and then the ignition.Boom. The oven door lew open and singed my eyebrows. !!
Rang dealer
Immobilise oven and grill and go back asap. They are ot allowed to work on gas on a site, so they say.
I understand the whole unit had to be re moved to replace the grill burners. Clearly something has gone wrong.
My mistake. I shouldhave made sure everything worked properly before I left in January.
Update will follow next wesk. .Meanwhile bbq gers used and eat outs.

 

[TerryIvybridge]

Bloomin' 'eck! that was a close call! Not your misteake DD, fair assumtion that all was well after the dealer had completed the replacements. They should have run all the checks before handing it over to you. They are lucky that nobody was seriously hurt!

 

[Mel]

Glad you are still in one piece albeit a bit crispy around the edges. Hope the dealer is made fully aware of of the fact that they could have killed you and offers suitable recompense.
mel

 

[Gagakev]

Blimey Dusty, what a scarey moment.
Glad you are all OK (ish),
Make sure they pay all your travelling cost to and from the dealers, least they can do.

 

[ProfJohnL]

My mistake.

Firstly let me say how sorry I am about your incident. It shouldn't have happened. I'm glad that no life threatening injury has ensued. But never the less an injury has arisen which should not have occurred. It is the dealers mistake for not carrying out the repair properly and for failing to test the appliance before it was released to you. It is wise to check things over before you set out, but you have used a professional service agent to have a repair carried out and you should have a high level of confidence in them to do the work properly and safely. - They Didn't. That is NOT your mistake! It makes my blood boil when I read or hear of such incidents so I'm not going to pull my punches. If what you have describe is accurate, then the dealer has failed to manage the situation in accordance with the Gas safety Installation and Use regulations. the situation could have been far worse if a child had been in front of the oven when it blew! On finding or being made aware of a faulty appliance (especially on which they have carried out work) they are required to render the appliance inoperable such that it cannot be used or accidentally turned on. It is most common for faulty appliances to be disconnected from the gas supply and the pipes sealed to prevent danger. It is unacceptable for the dealer to delay isolation of the device as they are knowingly allowing public access to hazardous systems which have the potential to cause harm. That is criminally in breach of Health and Safety regulations. I do not accept the dealer cannot make work on site. They have a duty to manage the hazard of their making as soon as is reasonably possible regardless of where it is discovered. That means as soon as a qualified person can be got to site In the UK that should be within hours - not days or later when the caravan is returned by the customer - even if it means using another more local contractor to secure the hazard - there are plenty around, such as our own Damain. I would be tempted to report the incident to the HSE, and Trading standards so the dealer understands faces the truth of the situation they have allowed to arise. They should have a crystal clear vision on their responsibilities to ensure that all persons working on gas systems are properly trained and managed, and that they have to have a robust and effective management system to prevent such incidents.

 

[Sproket]

Flippin eck! ....... hope they don't try to blame it on the excessive amount of potholes that are about & shaking things loose ....

 

[Dustydog]

Many thanks John.
Can I borrow you please? Wink smilie.
I'm sending my dealer a copy of this thread asking them to come to site and do the repairs urgently..we are only 20 miles away from them. The oven and grill have been gas isolated by me, master gas tap. So we have the hob and microwave. To make matters worse the Trumatic heater keeps cutting out every two hours when set on 2000w. Our dealer has been excellent over the last 12 years.in fact they were PC Mags gold winners.

 

[Damian]

I am shocked by the Dealer and their stance that they cannot work on site, that is utter rubbish as far as a gas problem is concerned andmakes me wonder just what qualifications the dealer staff have in relation to gas and gas regs.
It is NOT acceptable to let the owner isolate the gas supply to the faulty item as they may not do it correctly and just using the isolation valve is not good enough, the cooker needs to be disconnected and the pipe sealed to ensure there is no gas escape.
This is an incredible tale of inadequate service, the cooker should have been tested and confirmed as safe before you took it out of the workshop and is a reportable offence under RIDDOR regulations.
In the current situation you find yourself you should turn the gas supply off at the cylinder and not use gas at all until the fault is fixed, which sounds to me as if you will require a new cooker.

 

[Parksy]

This is shocking example of carelessness and incompetence and could have had tragic consequences.
I would expect the dealer who is definitely at fault to move heaven and earth to make the cooker safe on site, you may endanger yourself and or other site users. The dealer should check every gas connection and fitting and make good any damage, they should do this immediately.
Take pictures of any visible damage and if this dealer won't resolve this safety issue today I'd contact a different dealership or an approved mobile service engineer and send the original dealer the bill.

 

[Gafferbill]

Alan......glad you and Terry are OK.........Hoping I am not upsetting anyone here but I have never liked to trust the spark igniter on my caravan oven and grill.........The trouble is they all click away together as they should, so when you are lighting the oven or grill it is very hard to know whether the spark igniter is actually working on the grill or oven you are trying to light at the time....... On the hob you can see the burner you are trying to ignite ......and if it does not light straight away you can take corrective action ....what I do is then light that burner with a gas lighter that I keep in the caravan......I use the ones that produce a small flame like a cigarette lighter and cost £1....... often the next time I try to light that same burner it will light straight away with the spark electrode ......so there is nothing actually wrong with it.... I only ever light the grill and oven with the gas lighter using this procedure.....present the lighted gas lighter to the burner of the oven or grill....turn the gas on to the burner which lights straight away......turn off and remove the gas lighter and hold gas supply on until thermocouple reaches temperature and control knob can be released......The enemy is the build up of gas in a confined space that is suddenly subjected to ignition......I am not a caravan gas expert so if I have written anything that is wrong I hope Damian will tell us!!

 

[otherclive]

I have never had a problem lighting the grill or oven with the cooker's own electronic ignitor. But I always check that it has lit correctly, by lighting it once, then after a couple of seconds turn it off and relight. Finally bend dwon and juust eyeball the grill elemenst to see the flame. This way it ensures that both sections of the grill are lit. For the oven we just open the door turn on the gas and push the ignitor. Again you can see instantly if it is lit with a stable flame. But we do keep one of the small gas lighters in the van just in case the electrics to the cooker should fail.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm Sorry my work round to produce paragraphs seems to have been blocked. Please take your time and read this carefully.
I have no objection to you using the content of this public forum provided it’s with Haymarket's agreement.
I think Gaffer and Clive have slightly missed the point. The issue is not how the flame ignited, but the action of the gas valve and any Flame Failure Device which should have cut the gas supply to the burner. It appears the FFD did not cut the gas to the oven supply allowing unburnt gas to collect and form a combustible mixture inside the oven. The oven would have blown with any source of ignition so the type of ignition is not relevant in this case. The appliance had just been repaired/modified and should have been proven by the fitter to be safely working to the manufacturers specification.
Gas Safety is an issue very close to my heart and I know from my own experience the appliance company I worked for would have had an engineer or a team on their way to an end-user in minutes of such an event being reported. I am also delighted to find Damiam in complete agreement, his experience is far more current than my own.
DD If you still have edit facilities on the posting I suggest it might be wise to remove your comment concerning the award the dealer received as this might enable them to be identified, and as we know when a dispute arises between a customer and a dealer it should kept private. and only discussed in public using general terms. Perhaps the Mods might help. We would obviously like to be kept informed of progress.
I am not vindictive, and I don't wish the dealership ill fortune, but this smacks of professional incompetence at four different levels.
The first is the repair work was not correctly completed and safety checked by the technician. Was the fitter actually certified competent to work on gas appliances?
Secondly Its good practice on safety critical work for such jobs to be managed by way of a job card/work sheet which should require the fitter to mark or sign when safety tests have been completed satisfactorily - Either the fitter forgot to do them, or for, or lied about completing them.
Thirdly, If the test confirmation was not marked on the card , the Service Manager is also at fault for not having a system for spotting the missing test marks and immediately flagging them up.
Fourthly, The response you got from the dealer when reporting the problem was wholly inadequate and could be deemed negligent as it falls criminally short of meeting their legal obligations under GSIAUR,and as Damian has pointed out RIDDOR.
If only one of the above stages had occurred it would still be serious but it could be down to a genuine mistake, but for all four activities to have occurred suggests that there are major shortcomings in the management and and competence of the service department.
They need a strong response to alert them to their responsibilities. If they are a genuinely customer orientated business, they will respect you not rebuke you for alerting them to the error of their ways. Its only a question of the prevailing circumstances that DD was not more seriously injured. So the scale of the injury is not as relevant as the scale of the potential injury, which if we are honest could have been long term disablement or a fire in the caravan leading to loss of life.
The boot is very definitely on your foot, It is up to you if you want to use it.

 

[otherclive]

I'm Sorry my work round to produce paragraphs seems to have been blocked. Please take your time and read this carefully.
I have no objection to you using the content of this public forum provided it’s with Haymarket's agreement.
I think Gaffer and Clive have slightly missed the point. The issue is not how the flame ignited, but the action of the gas valve and any Flame Failure Device which should have cut the gas supply to the burner. It appears the FFD did not cut the gas to the oven supply allowing unburnt gas to collect and form a combustible mixture inside the oven. The oven would have blown with any source of ignition so the type of ignition is not relevant in this case. The appliance had just been repaired/modified and should have been proven by the fitter to be safely working to the manufacturers specification.
Gas Safety is an issue very close to my heart and I know from my own experience the appliance company I worked for would have had an engineer or a team on their way to an end-user in minutes of such an event being reported. I am also delighted to find Damiam in complete agreement, his experience is far more current than my own.
DD If you still have edit facilities on the posting I suggest it might be wise to remove your comment concerning the award the dealer received as this might enable them to be identified, and as we know when a dispute arises between a customer and a dealer it should kept private. and only discussed in public using general terms. Perhaps the Mods might help. We would obviously like to be kept informed of progress.
I am not vindictive, and I don't wish the dealership ill fortune, but this smacks of professional incompetence at four different levels.
The first is the repair work was not correctly completed and safety checked by the technician. Was the fitter actually certified competent to work on gas appliances?
Secondly Its good practice on safety critical work for such jobs to be managed by way of a job card/work sheet which should require the fitter to mark or sign when safety tests have been completed satisfactorily - Either the fitter forgot to do them, or for, or lied about completing them.
Thirdly, If the test confirmation was not marked on the card , the Service Manager is also at fault for not having a system for spotting the missing test marks and immediately flagging them up.
Fourthly, The response you got from the dealer when reporting the problem was wholly inadequate and could be deemed negligent as it falls criminally short of meeting their legal obligations under GSIAUR,and as Damian has pointed out RIDDOR.
If only one of the above stages had occurred it would still be serious but it could be down to a genuine mistake, but for all four activities to have occurred suggests that there are major shortcomings in the management and and competence of the service department.
They need a strong response to alert them to their responsibilities. If they are a genuinely customer orientated business, they will respect you not rebuke you for alerting them to the error of their ways. Its only a question of the prevailing circumstances that DD was not more seriously injured. So the scale of the injury is not as relevant as the scale of the potential injury, which if we are honest could have been long term disablement or a fire in the caravan leading to loss of life.
The boot is very definitely on your foot, It is up to you if you want to use it.

Prof,
not wishing to be pedantic but I have not missed the point. I was responding to Gafferbills post re lighting gas cookers. I didnt bother with a quote which may have led to you misinterpreting my comments. It is not unusual in forum threads to have supplementray comments in parallel with the main thrust of the thread. Apologies for using up bandwidth in quoting your long missive, but it's to ensure others dont misinterpret my reply.

 

[Parksy]

....... DD If you still have edit facilities on the posting I suggest it might be wise to remove your comment concerning the award the dealer received as this might enable them to be identified, and as we know when a dispute arises between a customer and a dealer it should kept private. and only discussed in public using general terms. Perhaps the Mods might help. We would obviously like to be kept informed of progress.

I'm happy to help with editing if you feel that you'd prefer any identifying reference to be removed

 

[Dustydog]

Firstly thanks for all the excellent support.
After a long chat with the workshop manager we decided to hitch up, cut short the holiday, and drive direct to the dealer. They dropp3d everything and had three experts on the case.

we took the view gas matters are to be taken seriously and it was in our best interests to be fully cooperative.
It transpired the oven gas control knob had stuck in.Thus even if the flame went out the gas didn't turn off automatically. Hence when I tried to relight it the oven was full of gas and bang!

The oven and grill now work perfectly.
the Trumatic thermostat was repositioned. Now stays but the fan no longer works. Grrrr.
Anyway we are back on site and will enjoy the break.I
wonder why the fan doesn't work. Another phone call. I'm happy with the dealers care and attention today. It would have been better for me if they coukd have come to site. Sadly that wasn't an option. I stand my support for the dealer in gaining their gold award. Maybe I should have handled it differently? ? Thanks again everyone. Last word. I willl stick with our dealer.

Is there a caravan breakdown scheme available that could have dealt with the problem?

 

[Sproket]

Is there a caravan breakdown scheme available that could have dealt with the problem?

This looks like it's a dealer opperated scheme ..... but it does say something about vans upto 12yo ....

 

[Damian]

I am gladthe gas situation has been sorted out, however it should never have happened in the first place.
As for the fan on the heater, if they removed the fire front to move the remote stat it may well be that they have partially, or completely pulled the control loom from the fan switch on the fire off an so you have no fan.
If you feel confident , pull the fire front off at the top a little bit and check that the small connector is actually fully seated on the switch assembly.

 

[Dustydog]

I am gladthe gas situation has been sorted out, however it should never have happened in the first place.
As for the fan on the heater, if they removed the fire front to move the remote stat it may well be that they have partially, or completely pulled the control loom from the fan switch on the fire off an so you have no fan.
If you feel confident , pull the fire front off at the top a little bit and check that the small connector is actually fully seated on the switch assembly.

Well done Damian
spot on.
The plug was off the socket.
works fine now. But what a fiddle getting the front back on. Is there a special knack?
Thanks again everyone.
Going forward after 36 years of caravanning the oven door will be open during lighting up.

 

[Gafferbill]

I think Gaffer and Clive have slightly missed the point.

Prof.........I was not responding to any of your posts!........IMO and based on the incident as described by the OP .................I thought your posts were jumping to conclusions about the work carried out by the dealer..........I posted what I believe to be a safe way to light a gas oven or grill in a caravan..........This was basically a procedure of double checking every action and to make absolutely sure the burner was alight and all was well. ...........Clive posted a different procedure which was also a procedure of double checking every action.......... I am cautious by nature and I think that a caravan is a very hostile environment for a gas appliance........I would not assume that even if checked and passed by a dealer that a gas cooker would be in the same working order after being towed for a few miles............Apologies to Dusty as I think he should have the last word in this post...........So did you enjoy you trip to Chew Valley?...... I hope you did not scare the Wildfowl on the lake too much with your incident { ;-)

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Bill

Safely back at Chew Valley enjoying the spring sun even though it's still winter.
The oven was removed last November for the fitting of a new grill. Our dealer is first class and has a number of double check systems in place for gas electricity and wheel nuts etc.
What has happened between november and now whilst in storage is that the oven control knob seized in press in position when I first used it. There is no evidence either direct or circumstantial to say anything was incorrectly done in november.
in fact the sticking knob was caused by over use of soap cleaners which have gradually congealed.

In future we will have the annual service done just before the start of the season , say February.

......
we will check all appliances work before leaving the dealer post service. .................
I will never light the gas oven with the door closed. Always open. ........And ensure all gas taps / knobs are kept clean and push and release correctly.
I do hope my experience helps everyone on here.

cheers....DD

 

[ProfJohnL]

I thought your posts were jumping to conclusions about the work carried out by the dealer..........

Hello Gaffer and Clive. You both gave good advice about how to ignite the oven burner, I wasn't taking issue so much with that, but more the reported fact the oven did blow, which if it had been functioning correctly it would not do. ..................................................................................................................................

We are forever relient on the information given by the poster, and I often point out its unsafe to jump to conclusions because we may not have all the facts, However I am particularly sensitive toward gas incidents, and I do not appologise for making the assumption the that DD's problem arose out incompetent repairs, after all DD did point out the cooker had been repaired but not used since the repair. It is a reasonable assumsption the problem was related to the repair. We now know from DD's latest post the circumstance might be different, but regardless of the underlying cause. the dealer's initial response about not working on sites, is unacceptable, and even if the dealer was not local to site they could or should have purt DD in touch with a loca/mobile fitter to at least make the installation safe in accordance with the Gas Regs or even effect a repair.
....................................................................................................................................................

I know Health and Safety matters realated to caravans are often seen as unessessary but when you have either experienced a gas related incident, or had to clean up after one you would understand the how unsatisfactory handling of gas matters is one step too far, and is an incident waiting to happen - not just if but more likely when.
..................................................................................................................................................
I am glad DD is now restored to his holiday pitch and able to enjoy the rest of his holiday, wiser, safer, if not a little singed.

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks John.
....................I do believe insufficient gas use instructions are given out by both caravan and appliance manufacturer. A little more detail on my experince will help. Bill and Clive's ignition advice is sound including my own albeit by way of default experience...........I rightly or wrongly made an assumption the failure was connected to the repair. It wasn't. Soga demands I give the repairer a chance to remedy any defect of faulty work. We now know there was nothing wrong with their work...................with hindsight and for the future I will call a local caravan gas engineer to site for help.