Generator/Charger/Arrgghhh

[twindaddy]

Right, blew up charger unit on caravan. Don't think we let the generator (never used before) run long enough to settle before plugging the caravan into it. Since checked the generator and plugged it into another caravan 3 sep times and works and charges fine on the second caravan.(second caravan has Zig unit, first carvan a bit older and has (had) Amperor charger unit) So......

When the new charge unit arrives how do I check that the output of the generator has settled enough for the charge unit to handle without it costing me another £100 for a new charge unit? Is there a test plug of some description I can buy to plug into the generator while it is running to check it has settled and no surges are present?

I need to use the generator in 2 weeks for a whole week on our very first rally and am worried to say the least about plugging the genny in for the first time!!! ;(

Thanks

 

[Parksy]

Generators can produce erratic power outputs, the cheaper 650-850W 2-stroke models commonly on the market do not normally have an automatic voltage regulator and given a change in load or severe "hunting" caused by an incorrect petrol to oil ratio, there can be significant overshoots of voltage as the engine overspeeds for a couple of seconds - over 300V even when loaded at 500W.
This is probably why your charger unit was blown, non sine wave types of generator are incompatible with modern caravan electronics and I know of at least one case where the use of a cheap 2 stroke generator invalidated the warranty on a Nordelletronica charge unit that had to be replaced.
I don't know of any test plug but even when the generator has 'settled down' you are still taking a chance on blowing the charger.
It might be better to purchase a spare 110a/h leisure battery, on rallies that last longer than a couple of days the rally field owner usually charges leisure batteries.
Check before going on the rally that generators are allowed, this is not always the case.
Most regular rally goers have abandoned generators in favour of solar power now (although nobody would expect you to buy a solar panel just for one rally) and more often than not the times and the duration that generators can be used on rallies is restricted if genny's are allowed.

 

[twindaddy]

Generators can produce erratic power outputs, the cheaper 650-850W 2-stroke models commonly on the market do not normally have an automatic voltage regulator and given a change in load or severe "hunting" caused by an incorrect petrol to oil ratio, there can be significant overshoots of voltage as the engine overspeeds for a couple of seconds - over 300V even when loaded at 500W.
This is probably why your charger unit was blown, non sine wave types of generator are incompatible with modern caravan electronics and I know of at least one case where the use of a cheap 2 stroke generator invalidated the warranty on a Nordelletronica charge unit that had to be replaced.
I don't know of any test plug but even when the generator has 'settled down' you are still taking a chance on blowing the charger.
It might be better to purchase a spare 110a/h leisure battery, on rallies that last longer than a couple of days the rally field owner usually charges leisure batteries.
Check before going on the rally that generators are allowed, this is not always the case.
Most regular rally goers have abandoned generators in favour of solar power now (although nobody would expect you to buy a solar panel just for one rally) and more often than not the times and the duration that generators can be used on rallies is restricted if genny's are allowed.

Thanks Parksy

I think what has happened after talking to my Dad who trying the generator in my van for me was that he turned on the switch to either the water heater or the switch that turns the power on to the carvan which made the generator change sound completely. On hearing the generator change sound completely, he then turned off the same switch he turned on and we could then smell a slight burning coming from the charge unit under the front seats. So could I be correct in assuming that the geneator was running correctly but the surge/spike could of been created by a heavy load being turned on and then off again within a few seconds.

Do invertor generators prevent this happening. I am disappointed that I am so concerned about using a generator now and wondering what to do on rally without EHU. Cant afford suffecient solar unit at present.

 

[twindaddy]

Edited to delete duplicate post

 

[Sproket]

Some thing like this plug in usage meter that shows you active watts consumed, apparent power, voltage from the socket, amps used and frequency of the electricity (mains power is normally 50Hz).
It might work & when it starts hunting & reving ..... you will be able to see what voltage is being supplied

You could try it at home with a couple of drills working to give it some load ? then if it proves to be no good, it has only cost a tenner to try it ????????? & you have saved a few quid to put towards a new 110amp battery.........

 

[Parksy]

Do invertor generators prevent this happening. I am disappointed that I am so concerned about using a generator now and wondering what to do on rally without EHU. Cant afford suffecient solar unit at present.

From what you have written it would appear that the sudden high demand caused a spike which damaged the caravan battery charger, hopefully everything else is ok.
Is there any specific reason why you would need an ehu on the rally, do you need 240v in order to power medical equipment such as a nebuliser for instance?
Your caravan heater, water heater and fridge will work on lpg (our fridge seems to work better on gas) and you could buy a cheap whistling kettle for the hob from the market for about £5, the water pump, toilet flush and most of the lighting is 12v and you could power a small flat screen tv via a power invertor from the battery (for limited periods)
With no tv and careful use it's possible that a 110 amp hour leisure battery in good condition could last up to a week, the use of led lights or flourescent tubes rather than halogen radiant bulbs can help to conserve battery power. With a midweek charge your battery should last or you could buy a cheap mains battery charger and use this to charge your ( disconnected) battery from the genny so that if it spikes again you've only lost about £10
Hope this helps

 

[graham_somersham]

It could be the frequency of the AC current as well. Most of the cheaper generators control the frequency by the physical speed but inverter generators use electronics to ensure a good approximation to a sine wave. From memory I seem to recall that switch mode PSU's as used in caravans do not like anything except a clean supply with a nice regular sine wave.

 

[twindaddy]

Do invertor generators prevent this happening. I am disappointed that I am so concerned about using a generator now and wondering what to do on rally without EHU. Cant afford suffecient solar unit at present.

From what you have written it would appear that the sudden high demand caused a spike which damaged the caravan battery charger, hopefully everything else is ok.
Is there any specific reason why you would need an ehu on the rally, do you need 240v in order to power medical equipment such as a nebuliser for instance?
Your caravan heater, water heater and fridge will work on lpg (our fridge seems to work better on gas) and you could buy a cheap whistling kettle for the hob from the market for about £5, the water pump, toilet flush and most of the lighting is 12v and you could power a small flat screen tv via a power invertor from the battery (for limited periods)
With no tv and careful use it's possible that a 110 amp hour leisure battery in good condition could last up to a week, the use of led lights or flourescent tubes rather than halogen radiant bulbs can help to conserve battery power. With a midweek charge your battery should last or you could buy a cheap mains battery charger and use this to charge your ( disconnected) battery from the genny so that if it spikes again you've only lost about £10
Hope this helps

The only reason for the genny is to charge the battery as I know it won't last more than 3-4 days max, maybe even only 2. Have small led battery lamps for evening use when children in bed etc and we have 12v TV but will hardly be used anyway. But do like the idea of attaching just a basic battery charger to the genny and battery just to charge. I take it, using this method, i would need to disconnect the battery from the caravan before connecting the charger and genny? (It's on Quick release clamps)

Ta

TD

 

[Parksy]

Yes TD, disconnect the battery before charging with the genny. When you arrive at the rally explain to the rally steward that this will be your first ever rally and ask if there is any way to get your battery recharged, quite often on rallies that last more than a weekend there would be some way to recharge your battery.
Fellow rally goers will usually offer advice and share information about battery charging, where to get cheap-ish solar panels with sufficient wattage to provide a worthwhile charge current ( I found out all about the one that I now have from ralliers). One couple that I know have a spare 12s socket outlet in the back of their 4x4 and a plastic battery box and they have a spare battery being charged whenever they use their vehicle. Sometimes there will be a nearby farm or garage that are happy to re-charge ralliers batteries and of course some rallies are held on sites with ehu.
Enjoy your first rally and I hope that the weather changes for the better for you

 

[twindaddy]

Found replacement charger which looks indentical but different brand
http://www.amperorassociates.co.uk/c-battery_chargers/BatteryC-3_18A.html

Specifications look within similar parameters

Specifications (New Unit) [*]18 Amp Output [*]Three stages for improved charging [*]Thermal and electrical protection [*]Intelligent fan cooling ElectricalInput Voltage180 - 264V ACInput Frequency50 - 60HzOutput Voltage13.8V DC +/- 1%(below 2A)14.5V DC +/- 1%(above 3A)Load Range0 - 18AOutput Power262WStandby Current1.5mAProtectionCurrent limit@19A +/- 0.5AShort circuit protectionOver voltage@16V +/- 1.0VThermal@90OC +/- 5oC

OLD UNIT SPEC LABEL SAYS:
Input Voltage 220/240V - (AC) 50/60Hz, Input power 197watts
Output Voltage 13.8V--(DC), Max Output current 12 amps
/sites/practicalcaravan.com/files/images/medium_Charger%20Pic.jpg
Are they a match?

 

[Guest]

Before you go splashing out on a new charger, most genny caused charger faults come down to changing one cheap component and the fuse
Known technically as a 'Varistor' or 'voltage dependent resistor' it is designed to blow an internal fuse and prevent a possible fire if the voltage spikes and exceeds 275V in this case.
If your very lucky the Varistor will have recovered and only the fuse needs replacing, if not Mapin sell them as ' 275v Transitant voltage suppressors', together with a pack of the correct 'timed' fuses, ie, T3.15Amp fuse
While it is important to allow the genny to settle before connection, however it is even more important to only run the charger while connected? With cheap uncontrolled voltage gennys, switching another load off will cause a voltage spike as the genny is slow to respond, if the charger is connected it will receive this higher voltage and cause it to protect itself.
Personally then, I would not advise using anything less than a full sine wave genny.

If all else fails the Amporer is an excellent choice, however you must be sure the wiring is caple of carrying the extra amperage to the battery, most are but some may need upgrading

 

[twindaddy]

Thanks Gary

I thought this may be the case. You are correct on both counts to the state of the the 'blown' charger. The Fuse has blown and a small black varistor (looks like a black smartie stuck to the top of two pieces of wire sticking out of the main board) has melted and almost disappeared.
/sites/practicalcaravan.com/files/images/large_Varistor.jpg

I'll take the unit over to Maplin and have a look. Am I looking for just the black smartie to solder/mould over the wires again? (and new fuse of course)

Ta once again and to all's advice and help, very much appreciated to a newbie like me..

TD

 

[twindaddy]

You can see from the photo above the empty fuse rack but just to the right top corner of the fuse rack, are the two wires missing their varistor.

 

[Sproket]

You can see from the photo above the empty fuse rack but just to the right top corner of the fuse rack, are the two wires missing their varistor.

Do you mean these two ?

 

[twindaddy]

You can see from the photo above the empty fuse rack but just to the right top corner of the fuse rack, are the two wires missing their varistor.

Do you mean these two ?

Yes

 

[Sproket]

Glad to see that it has done it's job & not set the van on fire.........

 

[RayS]

Looks like you are well on the way to a solution. However, if you go back to the generator/charger/battery idea, be care about which charger you use, as the cheaper ones deigned for charging starter batteries may not have the voltage regulation for safe charging of a leisure batteries. In previoous threads you will find a lot of information about this - from memory I think the chaeging voltage for a leisure battery should not be above 14.4 volts.
Some CTEK chargers can double as a 12v supply for the van - and although fairly expensive they are still cheaper than the standard mains charger units fitted to most caravans. I think other makers may now offer the same facility e.g. Ring.

 

[twindaddy]

Thanks guys, i'm off to maplins in the morning.

Ray - With regards to your info on chargers, are you referring to the extenal type chargers that I would purchase just to charge the battery while not connected to the caravan but connected only to the generator for charging OR are you referring to the built in charger units in the caravan?

 

[twindaddy]

Before you go splashing out on a new charger, most genny caused charger faults come down to changing one cheap component and the fuse
Known technically as a 'Varistor' or 'voltage dependent resistor' it is designed to blow an internal fuse and prevent a possible fire if the voltage spikes and exceeds 275V in this case.
If your very lucky the Varistor will have recovered and only the fuse needs replacing, if not Mapin sell them as ' 275v Transitant voltage suppressors', together with a pack of the correct 'timed' fuses, ie, T3.15Amp fuse
While it is important to allow the genny to settle before connection, however it is even more important to only run the charger while connected? With cheap uncontrolled voltage gennys, switching another load off will cause a voltage spike as the genny is slow to respond, if the charger is connected it will receive this higher voltage and cause it to protect itself.
Personally then, I would not advise using anything less than a full sine wave genny.

If all else fails the Amporer is an excellent choice, however you must be sure the wiring is caple of carrying the extra amperage to the battery, most are but some may need upgrading

Gary

Thank you - Thank you - Thank you

The charger is fixed, back in its place and charging my battery as we speak for the grand cost of £4.38!!!
Thanks for the tip of the varisitor, Maplin had them in stock and we soldered it in while at work today and replaced the glass fuse. It tickled me, the fuses only come in packs of 10 and I purchased 2 of the varistors (just in case) and still only spent £4.38.

I'll be sure to pass on this knowledge if I ever come across someone in the same position looking at a £100 bill!

Cheers
TD

 

[Guest]

Never seen one quite that bad! usually split open but not stripped naked!!

But, you will see the wires, (now fused together), permanantly bridging live and neutral giving a dead short, so, cut them and move them a little apart. With a multimeter set too Ohms and the highest range, measure the resistance between live and neutral, (make sure you measure from the charger side of the fuse holder, or pop any fuse in for testing purposes). With the Varistors wires cut you should get a very high resistance, certainly several 100,000 ohms. If that is what you get, fit a correct fuse and see if the charger works, if it does then replace the varistor and your sorted.
If not, then the damage has travelled further and probably best to replace the whole thing.

PS, don't ask Maplins for a Varistor otherwise you may well get blank faces!, they call them 'Transiant Voltage Suppressors'

 

[Guest]

Oh! I wrote the above yesterday afternoon and forgot to post it until now and could not check for updates beforehand!!

Glad though your sorted...be more careful in the future and perhaps the best advice to offer others is.... don't use cheap chargers in the first place ?! LOL

 

[lleyzcoissants]

i suggest that don't make a harsh decision specially if your in the moment of 'heat'. i mean like if you get mad or angry or disappointed or upset then just take time to relax or unwind and once your settle or cool down then that's the moment you proceed. likewise, just read the manual of the said generator. and if their no manual, try to ask someone from your neighbor or friends as they may have some knowledge of the said model or unit. don't hesitate even to go to the hardware you bought it even if it has no more warranty. it's better to ask or inquire that will minimize or no damage at all rather than proceed with a drastic decision that may ruin your genset.
Moderator Note:
Link to facebook deleted.

 

[durtlocker]

Hi guys new to this forum and thread ,i have recently too blown up my interpower power supply using a two stroke generator with exactly the same circumstances (child turned on and then off the electric water heater then fritzed psu!) so a BIG thank you to this poster for the useful info regarding the varistor .

GARY wrote

" Before you go splashing out on a new charger, most genny caused charger faults come down to changing one cheap component and the fuse
Known technically as a 'Varistor' or 'voltage dependent resistor' it is designed to blow an internal fuse and prevent a possible fire if the voltage spikes and exceeds 275V in this case.
If your very lucky the Varistor will have recovered and only the fuse needs replacing, if not Mapin sell them as ' 275v Transitant voltage suppressors', together with a pack of the correct 'timed' fuses, ie, T3.15Amp fuse
While it is important to allow the genny to settle before connection, however it is even more important to only run the charger while connected? With cheap uncontrolled voltage gennys, switching another load off will cause a voltage spike as the genny is slow to respond, if the charger is connected it will receive this higher voltage and cause it to protect itself "