Good news for Elddis (Erwin Hymer Group owners re towing with commercials

[JezzerB]

REcently posted by a member on the Facebook group;

Dear Customer,
We are amending our caravan handbooks to clarify our position with respect to towing vehicles. Please find details of the amendment below:
Your new caravan is designed to be towed by a normal motor car.
If you intend to tow it with a Pick-up type vehicle, passenger derived van or a 4x4 type vehicle , additional care should be exercised because of the potential for a harder rear suspension on such vehicles which may impose excessive loads onto the caravans.
You may also have to adjust your driving style over rough terrain and particular attention should be given to the height of the tow ball in relation to the caravan coupling.
Ref: ( United Nations Economic Commission for Europe ) UNECE R55 states that the centre of the towball should be between 350mm and 420mm above the ground level
Your new caravan should not be towed by a commercial vehicle with a gross vehicle weight in excess of over 3500kgs
When selecting a towing vehicle, it is recommended that you consult the Caravan Towing Guide which is available from the NCC.
Kindest regards,
Customer Care Team

 

[Jcloughie]

I know this link is American and shows 2” balls. But such things are available here. I would think that Elddis would have been wise to suggest this in the text otherwise they are limiting their market. People may conclude the Elddis are not a suitable purchase for their choice of car.

John

 

[JezzerB]

Sadly not ec approved so not legal as far as aware after a certain date anyway of which I am sure someone on here will testify. It isn't just eh they all have no commercials in the small print as far as am aware.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Playing devils advocate....If you had evidence that you new caravan had been towed to the dealership by a 3500kg + commercial delivery van, you might have case to reject the caravan. Elldis needs to consider how their caravan are delivered.

 

[Dustydog]

Note. A 4x4 vehicle! I won’t be buying an Elddis. Or what do they suggest we use for a tug on their big TAs?

 

[otherclive]

REcently posted by a member on the Facebook group;

Dear Customer,
We are amending our caravan handbooks to clarify our position with respect to towing vehicles. Please find details of the amendment below:
Your new caravan is designed to be towed by a normal motor car.
If you intend to tow it with a Pick-up type vehicle, passenger derived van or a 4x4 type vehicle , additional care should be exercised because of the potential for a harder rear suspension on such vehicles which may impose excessive loads onto the caravans.
You may also have to adjust your driving style over rough terrain and particular attention should be given to the height of the tow ball in relation to the caravan coupling.
Ref: ( United Nations Economic Commission for Europe ) UNECE R55 states that the centre of the towball should be between 350mm and 420mm above the ground level
Your new caravan should not be towed by a commercial vehicle with a gross vehicle weight in excess of over 3500kgs
When selecting a towing vehicle, it is recommended that you consult the Caravan Towing Guide which is available from the NCC.
Kindest regards,
Customer Care Team

What a poor definition. A” 4x4 type”. What on earth does that mean. No Santa Fe, no Discovery Sport. Not even a Dacia Duster perhaps. Who wrote such guff. Best they withdraw and amend.

 

[JezzerB]

Well I'm cup half full,as long as your towball is correct they can't wheedle out of a claim. Most importantly handbooks of most brands still ban commercials ,be interesting to know if any new owners now find this is not the case.
I know you've got to approach life with a degree of caution but this was for info ,came from what I would think is not a scammer type source, is only an indication that at least one maker is reconsidering the cart Blanche cannot use them and not the final wording. Is it me or are people very cynical? (and before you all say it I have just retired and experience so far in life is that most manufacturers of most things want to do their best for the customer. Even caravan makers.)

 

[Lutz]

They should have said correctly an 'off road vehicle' and not a '4x4 type'. An off road vehicle is legally defined and it does not, for example, have to comply with the rules concerning towball height, but very few 4x4's fall into the off-road vehicle category.

 

[JezzerB]

This is simply a personal email outlining what they are intending s o am sure they'll have the wording well and truly watertight by the time it finds its way in to the handbook and gtee doc-sorry maybe should have made that clear.

 

[Brian_374234561]

I never knew that about Elddis caravans. I’ve got one and tow it with a “4x4” as you can see from my photo. What I don’t get is the chassis is an Alko one so no different to eg Swift, so do Swift specify this as well? And the dealer sold me this caravan and I picked it up with the Audi so don’t they have a duty of care here? I’ll dig out my paperwork tomorrow and if needed, write to Elddis to get clarity.

 

[otherclive]

I never knew that about Elddis caravans. I’ve got one and tow it with a “4x4” as you can see from my photo. What I don’t get is the chassis is an Alko one so no different to eg Swift, so do Swift specify this as well? And the dealer sold me this caravan and I picked it up with the Audi so don’t they have a duty of care here? I’ll dig out my paperwork tomorrow and if needed, write to Elddis to get clarity.

By 4x4 they are most likely to mean off road cars whereas your will have a towball height and dimensions that conform to EU standard. Plus it’s optimised for road journeys. As far as the van is aware your car is little different to a saloon or estate car. So it’s not affected by Eldiss definition.
Yes, most manufacturers have restrictions on towing by commercial vehicles. How they police it heaven knows.

Regarding the over used phrase “ duty of care” whatever happened to “personal responsibility “.

 

[Icaru5]

So, someone posts an alleged copy of a badly worded, improperly punctuated text from a Facebook group, with suggestions that it was published by a certain caravan manufacturer.

Is that really all it takes ?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Ignoring the uncertainty about teh authenticity of the message,

Lets put it another way, A "narrow boat" is designed to operate on the UK 's inland waterways, it is not designed to handle coastal or open sea conditions. If you owned a narrow boat and took to sea, and it flooded, would the boat manufacturer be to blame? No of course not.

If you were trying to purchase a narrow boat, and seller was aware of your intention to take it off shore, they could lawfully refuse to sell the boat to you becasue it is not suited to you intended purpose. If you disguise your intentions to facilitate the purchase, then the seller cannot be held responsible for any ensuing problems arising from activity beyond its specification.

Just having a tow ball at the correct height does not make a commercial or any other tow vehicle suitable for the caravan, its down to the specification the caravan manufacturer set out - regardless of what other caravan manufacturers accept.

 

[JezzerB]

Most manufacturers say this in the small print. Just a conversation starte r and one as you can see on point for me icarus! J

 

[otherclive]

Ignoring the uncertainty about teh authenticity of the message,

Lets put it another way, A "narrow boat" is designed to operate on the UK 's inland waterways, it is not designed to handle coastal or open sea conditions. If you owned a narrow boat and took to sea, and it flooded, would the boat manufacturer be to blame? No of course not.

If you were trying to purchase a narrow boat, and seller was aware of your intention to take it off shore, they could lawfully refuse to sell the boat to you becasue it is not suited to you intended purpose. If you disguise your intentions to facilitate the purchase, then the seller cannot be held responsible for any ensuing problems arising from activity beyond its specification.

Just having a tow ball at the correct height does not make a commercial or any other tow vehicle suitable for the caravan, its down to the specification the caravan manufacturer set out - regardless of what other caravan manufacturers accept.

Prof
Brians car may have 4WD but it looks like a soft roader SUV and there’s nothing about it that would lead a dealer to think that it’s anywhere unsuitable to tow an Eldiss caravan.

 

[Brian_374234561]

Prof
Brians car may have 4WD but it looks like a soft roader SUV and there’s nothing about it that would lead a dealer to think that it’s anywhere unsuitable to tow an Eldiss caravan.

Hence why they need to be clearer on the definition of a 4x4. Yes we have personal responsibility as well, I completely accept that, but does that mean reading the handbook before you pull away from the dealer? In my case I’m quite relaxed there’s no issue here based on the debate in this forum and the dealer was very diligent when I bought the caravan re what tow car did I have.

 

[RogerL]

By 4x4 they are most likely to mean off road cars whereas your will have a towball height and dimensions that conform to EU standard. Plus it’s optimised for road journeys. As far as the van is aware your car is little different to a saloon or estate car. So it’s not affected by Eldiss definition.
Yes, most manufacturers have restrictions on towing by commercial vehicles. How they police it heaven knows.

Regarding the over used phrase “ duty of care” whatever happened to “personal responsibility “.

They shouldn't have said 4x4 if they meant off-road - there is a big difference these days - I've never heard a manufacturer explain why owners can't use commercial vehicles to tow but it's ok to deliver from the factory with a commercial vehicle.

 

[JezzerB]

Totally agree Roger; there is a lot of confusion and at last they seem to be 'thinking' about altering the wording; be interesting to see if this is a genuine statement of intent and what the wording finally looks like as a wishy washy ambiguous one will simply make matters worse!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof
Brians car may have 4WD but it looks like a soft roader SUV and there’s nothing about it that would lead a dealer to think that it’s anywhere unsuitable to tow an Eldiss caravan.

My comment was a general note and not specifically about Brian's comment.

However, for anyone who has purchased before this stipulation was made, it could not be enforced retrospectively,

But, if the reported message is accurate in it's wording (and as Icaru5 has pointed out the message we have seen is clumsy and for that reason rather suspicious.) then yes it would apply, but its only saying extra care should be exercised, its not banning 4x4x's from towing

As for reading the" hand book" before towing, well that should not be necessary, as all the legal stuff like the specifications and Terms and Conditions should have been supplied to you before the contract to purchase was agreed. It is foolish to enter into a contract without checking the T&C's first.

 

[JTQ]

Your new caravan should not be towed by a commercial vehicle with a gross vehicle weight in excess of over 3500kgs

It should be noted that any "car" SUV or Pick-up version can't have a GVW over 3500 kgs, that is the cut off point between "cars" and commercial vehicles in Europe, including the UK. So anyone with a "car" has no issue about it being unusable, in that regard, as their tow vehicle.

On the wider point of towing with vehicles of any type featuring a "stiff" rear suspension, required for example for high load carrying.
It is engineeringly self evident that with these the lower "compliance" of that rear end will inflict more "punishment" into the "A" girders and on into the van's structure, than towing with a softer suspension vehicle. Whether they say it or not any van will be more stressed if the choice of tow vehicle is one with a stiff rear suspension, unavoidable; the only question left is how well the van can withstand it.

I tow now with a Disco 4, and for many years before with Defender 110s, but know how I have to drive as these despite their other attributes are not good news for the caravan's structure. I think that point is all Hymer are trying to make for those not naturally aware of the fact.

 

[Raywood]

it does seem an attempt to clarify what you can tow with but has gone a bit wrong. I suspect by 4x4 vehicles they are looking at things like the Land Rover Defender which has far harder suspension than the likes of the Kia's and even other Land Rover models. In practice they should have been a bit clearer with that.
The pick up point is really a clarification of what the others say when they refer to commercial vehicles. Most people seem to manage quite well with them and the suggestion you simply take care when using them suggests an acceptance and it would be difficult to reject claims by people using them in most cases.
I suspect they are reading this, even if they never comment where their models are concerned, and if something similar appears on other forums the wording might change.

 

[Lutz]

It should be noted that any "car" SUV or Pick-up version can't have a GVW over 3500 kgs, that is the cut off point between "cars" and commercial vehicles in Europe, including the UK. So anyone with a "car" has no issue about it being unusable, in that regard, as their tow vehicle.

A GVW of 3500kg may be the cut-off point for a commercial vehicle in the UK, but it's not so in Europe, hence my question.

Depending on the model, the VW Caddy, for example, can be classed either as a commercial vehicle or as a private car. The panel van is rated as a commercial vehicle, other variants aren't.

 

[JezzerB]

And I've always thought-how hard is hard? Our Mini Clubman JCW is rock hard-not quite as hard as my Golf r32 mk4 was but hard-now the Golf was so harsh I had to get rid as my wife hurt her neck in it; but the Navara is far more compliant than either of these two cars and the Mini is rated to tow 1500kg! Am sure it would make mincemeat of a small 2 birth!

 

[RogerL]

A GVW of 3500kg may be the cut-off point for a commercial vehicle in the UK, but it's not so in Europe, hence my question.

Depending on the model, the VW Caddy, for example, can be classed either as a commercial vehicle or as a private car. The panel van is rated as a commercial vehicle, other variants aren't.

I think the point was that there are NO cars over 3500kg - below 3500kg there's both private cars and commercials.

 

[Raywood]

The point on the Caddy is probably irrelevant as it is unlikely to be towing a caravan of the size that would suffer. From being involved in insurance claims chassis problems tended to be suffered by the longer twin axle caravans which suffer more stress when being towed. There are presumably some smaller models that have suffered but I never came across any. We did insure the local Trophy dealer and this helped us see a fair number of claims as their aluminium chassis was a particular problem.
I suspect that the pickups like Jezzerb's Nav have softened over the years as they have ended becoming more of a leisure vehicle than a commercial one, although given their carrying capacity they do need a more resilient suspension. Possibly technical improvements have helped the makers to improve the comfort aspect.
The engineer who used to service our caravan did say that the Hobby's towed by travelers Transit vans did often suffer from broken chassis, which tends to confirm my point.