Green at what price?

[Dustydog]

I know this isn’t the correct place but as it affects us all??
Gas imports from Europe are now at 470 p a therm.
We used to be self sufficient, almost. We have three massive gas / oil fields off the Shetlands and North Sea waiting to be taken. But can’t be touched …..😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫
France this week fired up a coal fired power station to meet demand.
I feel very uncomfortable being reliant on Europe and Russia for power which we can then label green😥😥
Rant over , aplologies but this will affect my financial ability to continue caravanning😥😥

 

[otherclive]

From the Daily Express October 2021

Data from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy shows UK production and imports in gigawatt hours in 2020 as follows:

UK - 438,520
Norway - 266,155
Qatar - 96,904
USA - 53,439
Russia - 24,635
Trinidad and Tobago - 11,190
Netherlands - 11,073
Belgium - 7,548
Nigeria - 3,688
Egypt - 2,040
France - 1,079
Algeria - 488


The supply from Russia is relatively small and Norway is our largest supplier by far. The French started up a coal station as there was outage with their nuclear supply, The North Sea producers will also charge the market rate to supplies to U.K., just as they do with North Sea oil. Opening up more fields would potentially give U.K. a higher percentage of its supplies, but it wouldn’t drop the price which is a world market price. Although increased supplies onto the market could drop the world price wherever they come from.

Leaving the EU. Internal Energy Market could leave U.K. potentially at greater risk of shortages, but having the lowest gas storage capacity by far we could do more to alleviate short term restrictions from anywhere, but it may not affect the price we pay.

 

[JezzerB]

Crazy lack of forethought future planning and any common sense from our government. Were getting rid of our coal fired stations instead of mothballing fir emergency use. Living on the TRent as we do two have gone already-with a third going soon-we watched them blow up one set of cooling towers-totally crazy imo. Just shut them down ready for use if needed-is it too much to ask? i want to be green but not at any cost.

 

[Ern]

We're doomed, I tell you. Doomed !

 

[Sam Vimes]

Here's a thought that beens running through my mind recently.....

The Electricity Grid is complex with many suppliers selling us the product. It comes from a variety of sources, Gas, Coal, Nuclear, Wind, Solar, Water etc yet the generation costs of these must vary. It seems to me that Wind power is cheap to produce because you don't have to pay for the wind to turn the turbines.

Yet we get charged just one price regardless of where we buy our energy from. For instance I'm with Scottish Power which claims to be 100% wind powered, yet I'd pay the pretty much the same price if I went for a company that was less green.

The technology exists to monitor the percentage of electricity each source is producing. Take today for instance where 20% of the load is being supplied from Wind. So why doesn't the price to the end user get adjusted depending on the cost of the source.

Seems to me that the price is kept at the level of the most expensive source and when the wind blows or whatever cheaper sources is predominant the extra profit goes to the shareholders and not the customers.

 

[otherclive]

Here's a thought that beens running through my mind recently.....

The Electricity Grid is complex with many suppliers selling us the product. It comes from a variety of sources, Gas, Coal, Nuclear, Wind, Solar, Water etc yet the generation costs of these must vary. It seems to me that Wind power is cheap to produce because you don't have to pay for the wind to turn the turbines.

Yet we get charged just one price regardless of where we buy our energy from. For instance I'm with Scottish Power which claims to be 100% wind powered, yet I'd pay the pretty much the same price if I went for a company that was less green.

The technology exists to monitor the percentage of electricity each source is producing. Take today for instance where 20% of the load is being supplied from Wind. So why doesn't the price to the end user get adjusted depending on the cost of the source.

Seems to me that the price is kept at the level of the most expensive source and when the wind blows or whatever cheaper sources is predominant the extra profit goes to the shareholders and not the customers.

The cheaper power may also be offsetting the higher costs some suppliers are paying for electricity generated from other more expensive sources.

As a customer I am also a shareholder via pension funds, and saving investments so profit does have its uses. We obtain energy via British Gas and took out a fixed tariff last spring that takes us through until April 2023, so I guess. BG aren't making much from our account. But there again our annual bills are not the high compared to some users, which might help in mitigating their loss.

 

[RogerL]

Here's a thought that beens running through my mind recently.....

The Electricity Grid is complex with many suppliers selling us the product. It comes from a variety of sources, Gas, Coal, Nuclear, Wind, Solar, Water etc yet the generation costs of these must vary. It seems to me that Wind power is cheap to produce because you don't have to pay for the wind to turn the turbines.

Yet we get charged just one price regardless of where we buy our energy from. For instance I'm with Scottish Power which claims to be 100% wind powered, yet I'd pay the pretty much the same price if I went for a company that was less green.

The technology exists to monitor the percentage of electricity each source is producing. Take today for instance where 20% of the load is being supplied from Wind. So why doesn't the price to the end user get adjusted depending on the cost of the source.

Seems to me that the price is kept at the level of the most expensive source and when the wind blows or whatever cheaper sources is predominant the extra profit goes to the shareholders and not the customers.

The suppliers of renewable energy have to include their capital costs as well as their operating cost - just like non-renewables.

 

[JezzerB]

And there is a levy to pay for more green power!

 

[otherclive]

I know this isn’t the correct place but as it affects us all??
Gas imports from Europe are now at 470 p a therm.
We used to be self sufficient, almost. We have three massive gas / oil fields off the Shetlands and North Sea waiting to be taken. But can’t be touched …..😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫
France this week fired up a coal fired power station to meet demand.
I feel very uncomfortable being reliant on Europe and Russia for power which we can then label green😥😥
Rant over , aplologies but this will affect my financial ability to continue caravanning😥😥

Not very widely reported but 20 US LNG carriers arrived in Europe over Christmas with another 15 awaiting redirection to Europe. The US have stated a willingness and ability to significantly increase their exports to Europe. The actions have already had an effect of driving down market supply prices. Be interesting to see how this one develops.

https://sputniknews.com/20211227/us...r-christmas-weekend---reports-1091846306.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...r-extend-slump-as-lng-supplies-promise-relief

 

[Buckman]

I would think that green energy is a lot more expensive to produce than normal energy which is why you pay a lot more for it. TBH we have never bothered with selecting green options as think it is a con.
BTW Scottish Power distribution, not Scottish power the supplier, generate electric through their hydro scheme,

 

[Tobes]

I would think that green energy is a lot more expensive to produce than normal energy which is why you pay a lot more for it. TBH we have never bothered with selecting green options as think it is a con.

It’s not. Green renewable energy (wind and offshore wind) is the cheapest form of energy to produce, mainly because once installed there is zero fuel cost.

 

[Buckman]

It’s not. Green renewable energy (wind and offshore wind) is the cheapest form of energy to produce, mainly because once installed there is zero fuel cost.

When is it their break even point? Maintenance costs are probably high for wind and no one knows their true life span.
In addition, electric still has to be generated when there is no wind so there is a fuel cost. I doubt very much if anyone in the UK gets totally green energy from any supplier.

 

[RogerL]

It’s not. Green renewable energy (wind and offshore wind) is the cheapest form of energy to produce, mainly because once installed there is zero fuel cost.

"once installed there is zero cost" really takes the prize for only giving half the story - the installation cost of renewable energy is immense and CANNOT be excluded from the figures.

Whether it's wind turbines, solar panels or hydro-power there's research, development, installation costs as well as end of life costs after a finite life in service - those costs all have to be taken into account.

 

[Dustydog]

This explains a lot

How much does a wind turbine cost ? - Renewables First

How much does a wind turbine cost - total project costs depend on many factors - for example turbine, design, planning, grid, foundation and cabling costs

www.renewablesfirst.co.uk

I am not convinced there is a cost advantage. But once rotating the wind is free.
But then my old boss always said”There is no such thing as a free lunch”!

 

[otherclive]

When is it their break even point? Maintenance costs are probably high for wind and no one knows their true life span.
In addition, electric still has to be generated when there is no wind so there is a fuel cost. I doubt very much if anyone in the UK gets totally green energy from any supplier.

There are onshore wind turbines in the south Lakes that were installed when we lived there in 1992 and still generating. Yes they will have had maintenance but so does any form of machinery. North Sea rigs and coal mines were not low cost in maintenance or support infrastructure. Centrica closed the large North Sea underground gas storage facility on cost and safety grounds. At a stroke UK lost a large proportion of its ability to store reserves of gas. New offshore wind farms are being licensed at less than one third of the guaranteed price of Hinckley C and lower than gas too. We have had cheap energy for a long while and need to get used to what will be a changing and possibly more expensive environment.

 

[otherclive]

"once installed there is zero cost" really takes the prize for only giving half the story - the installation cost of renewable energy is immense and CANNOT be excluded from the figures.

Whether it's wind turbines, solar panels or hydro-power there's research, development, installation costs as well as end of life costs after a finite life in service - those costs all have to be taken into account.

Tobes said “ zero fuel cost” which is true for both wind and solar too.

 

[RogerL]

Tobes said “ zero fuel cost” which is true for both wind and solar too.

By that twisted logic, so is nuclear power!

 

[otherclive]

By that twisted logic, so is nuclear power!

Not really as nuclear stations do use a fuel source and some have had to be refuelled part way through life.

 

[Buckman]

There are onshore wind turbines in the south Lakes that were installed when we lived there in 1992 and still generating. Yes they will have had maintenance but so does any form of machinery. North Sea rigs and coal mines were not low cost in maintenance or support infrastructure. Centrica closed the large North Sea underground gas storage facility on cost and safety grounds. At a stroke UK lost a large proportion of its ability to store reserves of gas. New offshore wind farms are being licensed at less than one third of the guaranteed price of Hinckley C and lower than gas too. We have had cheap energy for a long while and need to get used to what will be a changing and possibly more expensive environment.

Tobes referred to zero fuel cost which is incorrect as maintenance needs to be done at a cost. Hydro electric is probably the most green efficient energy that can be used nationally in the UK. Solar power probably does not even feature as being cost effective.
I am not sure why there has been such a huge jump recently in energy prices in the UK when many other countries around the world seem to have hardly budged in electric costs for many years.
TBH I think we would like to see green energy supplied to our homes but not at a huge cost to the consumer just so that some government can say we are the greenies!

 

[Sam Vimes]

The different sources that feed the grid make it a complex scenario to work out the true cost to the end user. Currently 45% is coming from Wind, 23% from Nuclear, 9% from Biomass and 11% from gas. Then there's the volts coming from interconnectors on the continent - source unknown.

If the wholesale price of gas rises then today only 11% of our electricity source would be affected. The question is - is the price rise applied equally to all sources or is it done on a pro rata basis?

Consider also that a large percentage of Wind Farms that are currently in operation where built when subsidies where being handed out. When this stopped in about 2014, I think, the number of new installations dropped. So installation costs for those were artificially lower.

Maintenance of wind farms we can only speculate on but consider that the network is distributed. Not all turbines on a wind farm will need replacing at the same time.

As for cost of the Green Energy suppliers - yes - it does appear to be a bit of a con but each year when I review and switch to the most cost effective supplier I find little difference between them. Years back there seemed to be considerable differences, now, to me, the differences are much smaller

 

[Buckman]

As for cost of the Green Energy suppliers - yes - it does appear to be a bit of a con but each year when I review and switch to the most cost effective supplier I find little difference between them. Years back there seemed to be considerable differences, now, to me, the differences are much smaller

Perhaps it is because the competition has been reduced considerably over the past year so less incentive for suppliers to compete by offering lower prices? Remember that the market is controlled by the Big Six!

 

[otherclive]

Tobes referred to zero fuel cost which is incorrect as maintenance needs to be done at a cost. Hydro electric is probably the most green efficient energy that can be used nationally in the UK. Solar power probably does not even feature as being cost effective.
I am not sure why there has been such a huge jump recently in energy prices in the UK when many other countries around the world seem to have hardly budged in electric costs for many years.
TBH I think we would like to see green energy supplied to our homes but not at a huge cost to the consumer just so that some government can say we are the greenies!

In my post the second sentence recognised that there will be maintenance cost but Tobes comment about zero fuel costs is correct. It is not just UK that has seen a large increase in energy prices all of Europe has seen large increases too, and other areas around the world have been affected The link below is HMGs assessment of energy prices and there's lots of information on the internet on reputable sites like Bloomberg, or Reuters too. One country largely unaffected is the USA where a recent Bloomberg report put their gas costs/unit at $4, Europe at $37 and Asia at $34. But the USA is self sufficient in gas and oil.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/international-energy-price-comparisons

 

[Buckman]

In my post the second sentence recognised that there will be maintenance cost but Tobes comment about zero fuel costs is correct.

Surely fuel is used to maintain the wind farms? Also when there is no wind surely fuel from another source is used to generate power?

 

[otherclive]

Perhaps it is because the competition has been reduced considerably over the past year so less incentive for suppliers to compete by offering lower prices? Remember that the market is controlled by the Big Six!

The companies that have gone bust are those that worked the spot market to offer lower prices, and they did not purchase ahead at prices that were fixed. hence as demand increases and supply stays fixed spot market prices will rise, and the companies business model showed how flawed is our free for all market where any one can set up a company without any real regulation. Petrol and diesel is governed by the majors also and again competition is limited.

 

[Buckman]

The companies that have gone bust are those that worked the spot market to offer lower prices, and they did not purchase ahead at prices that were fixed. hence as demand increases and supply stays fixed spot market prices will rise, and the companies business model showed how flawed is our free for all market where any one can set up a company without any real regulation. Petrol and diesel is governed by the majors also and again competition is limited.

Most if not all where not able to buy direct from any spot market or pool as it is known in the energy sector and bought from one of the Big Six. The Big Six were able to manipulate prices and could push prices up or down in the bidding war.
It must be remembered that smaller energy suppliers had to buy from the Big Six or pool for customers that they do not yet have to be able to offer lower prices. This was advantageous when the prices were low and they would buy for 2 or 3 years in advance borrowing money from the bank.