H2 car is it green?

[Peter day]

Using hydrogen to power cars how green is it.

You use electricity to generate hydrogen then transport it to fuel stations to be put into cars, which uses a cell to convert it to electricity to drive the electric meters.

Only at best 60% conversion electricity to hydrogen to electricity might just as well use EVs.

Note currently H2 generated from oil is the most effichant so still using hydrocarbons.

 

[otherclive]

Using hydrogen to power cars how green is it.

You use electricity to generate hydrogen then transport it to fuel stations to be put into cars, which uses a cell to convert it to electricity to drive the electric meters.

Only at best 60% conversion electricity to hydrogen to electricity might just as well use EVs.

Note currently H2 generated from oil is the most effichant so still using hydrocarbons.

You forget that it’s not impossible to transport hydrogen by pipeline and it’s not necessary to use a fuel cell. ICE can be designed to run on hydrogen. In fact JCB are doing that currently as their view is that full EV can be used on smaller machines but large ones in remoter locations need something else, so they are working with hydrogen fuelled engines. There won’t be a single solution to future energy needs so I’m quite relaxed about it as there is a growing momentum to achieve reduced emissions and increased renewable and/or nuclear.

 

[Jcloughie]

Using hydrogen to power cars how green is it.

You use electricity to generate hydrogen then transport it to fuel stations to be put into cars, which uses a cell to convert it to electricity to drive the electric meters.

Only at best 60% conversion electricity to hydrogen to electricity might just as well use EVs.

Note currently H2 generated from oil is the most effichant so still using hydrocarbons.

But it does not have to be that way and progress is being made.

See here

John

 

[RogerL]

It's not all about a single measure - it's all about reducing tailpipe emissions at point of use - so hydrogen-powered vehicles have a useful place in cleaning up our towns and cities.

 

[otherclive]

I think it is two fold. Firstly to reduce carbon dioxide and nitrous emissions wrt global warming and secondly to improve air quality. But the biggest driver by the COP is climate change and global warming. Improved air quality comes “ for free” in towns and cities.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Using hydrogen to power cars how green is it.

You use electricity to generate hydrogen then transport it to fuel stations to be put into cars, which uses a cell to convert it to electricity to drive the electric meters.

Only at best 60% conversion electricity to hydrogen to electricity might just as well use EVs.

Note currently H2 generated from oil is the most effichant so still using hydrocarbons.

Hydrogen as a fuel does have potential, but as you say its hampered by its production distribution, and storage costs. But by the same token so do petroleums, and it's energy and financial costs of extraction, refining and the transporting side of things that are so often forgotten when people make comparisons between fuels.

At least with Hydrogen (H2 ) the raw materials are readily present, but the costs of electrolysis, storage and distribution per litre are presently higher than petroleum. This could well change as more is produced with economies of scale, and improving technologies.

However its the way H2 can be used that might make more difference. Although JCB has developed an ICE that burns H2 , they can't get away from the inherent inefficiencies of internal combustion.

The very best ICE have only just about managed 50% thermal efficiency, and that is under strictly controlled conditions. most commercial diesels are still only about 20 to 30%
and petrol a few % less. - And of course that only applies when they are doing real work. Its when they are idling off load when the efficiency of fuel in to work out drops through the floor.
So the very best way of using H2 is in a fuel cell where it only produces energy on demand, and using it to power an electric motor.

H2 does have some advantages as a means of storing energy, Once the H2 has been created and stored - assuming the containment has no leaks, then you can get out exactly what you have put in regardless of how long its been stored. And the containment can be used many times over.

By comparison All batteries that i'm aware of do have some self discharge so the charge does diminish even if its not connected to anything, and many battery formulations have a limited number of charge and discharge cycles which degrades the charge capacity.

There is no single technology that provides a universal solution to a transport needs or want's I am certain it will need a range of alternatives to replace all systems that previously relied on petroleum ICE.

 

[JTQ]

Stuffing electrical energy into batteries and extracting it is also not a loss free process, and making batteries without environmental impact, even before you hoist in distribution to the charging points, environmental impact.

Think more of hydrogen as a pretty clean "battery", a liquid one, never going to need a recycling infrastructure.

Accrediting "being Green" requires a very wide view being taken of the whole picture.

IMO, it will be a massive player, and rechargeable battery EVs a small bit player, by the time the dust settles.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Stuffing electrical energy into batteries and extracting it is also not a loss free process, and making batteries without environmental impact, even before you hoist in distribution to the charging points, environmental impact.

Think more of hydrogen as a pretty clean "battery", a liquid one, never going to need a recycling infrastructure.

Accrediting "being Green" requires a very wide view being taken of the whole picture.

IMO, it will be a massive player, and rechargeable battery EVs a small bit player, by the time the dust settles.

There is too much investment across the world in BEV's for them not to take the leading role. It would take a massive investment for H2 to come to front. I'm sure it will play a part but I strongly suspect it will always be a second fiddle to batteries for cars. H2 might better suit other modes of power requirement, especially where there is less time available to recharge batteries. or where electrical supplies are not present or able to support EV.s A good example could be HGV logistics between regional hubs, or possibly urban bus routes.

 

[Tobes]

Stuffing electrical energy into batteries and extracting it is also not a loss free process, and making batteries without environmental impact, even before you hoist in distribution to the charging points, environmental impact.

Think more of hydrogen as a pretty clean "battery", a liquid one, never going to need a recycling infrastructure.

Accrediting "being Green" requires a very wide view being taken of the whole picture.

IMO, it will be a massive player, and rechargeable battery EVs a small bit player, by the time the dust settles.

Filling and reviving energy from a battery does have loss, but from generation of energy to drive shaft is around 80% efficient. The same with H2 is around 30% to 40% efficient. That is an efficiency deficit that is impossible to ignore and will secure a place for battery electric vehicles as the main mode of private and personal transport until either something even more efficient comes along, or another supply of incredibly cheap green energy is secured (fusion?). Making and distributing H2 is just too darn expensive to compete. But I am convinced it has a place for either grid level storage or industrial uses, including long range heavy transport, shipping, aero, and off grid plant equipment.

 

[Tobes]

There is too much investment across the world in BEV's for them not to take the leading role. It would take a massive investment for H2 to come to front. I'm sure it will play a part but I strongly suspect it will always be a second fiddle to batteries for cars. H2 might better suit other modes of power requirement, especially where there is less time available to recharge batteries. or where electrical supplies are not present or able to support EV.s A good example could be HGV logistics between regional hubs, or possibly urban bus routes.

Really good episode of fully charged plus discussing the use of H2 vs battery for busses in urban environments. Seems battery is a good solution there too.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6rx2G64Ouc109AM7EPR8Bj?si=wAVAkCk9S2OofFh7MNDAEg&dl_branch=1

 

[otherclive]

Filling and reviving energy from a battery does have loss, but from generation of energy to drive shaft is around 80% efficient. The same with H2 is around 30% to 40% efficient. That is an efficiency deficit that is impossible to ignore and will secure a place for battery electric vehicles as the main mode of private and personal transport until either something even more efficient comes along, or another supply of incredibly cheap green energy is secured (fusion?). Making and distributing H2 is just too darn expensive to compete. But I am convinced it has a place for either grid level storage or industrial uses, including long range heavy transport, shipping, aero, and off grid plant equipment.

At Kemble where there are lots of 747s awaiting their fate there an Anglo-US company ZeroAvia developing a hydrogen commuter plane. Their aim is for a larger converted Dornier to receive an airworthiness certificate for use in regional flights. Something like 50% of Europe’s Emissions from aircraft are on flights less than 2 hours. Not sure if this is just internal or includes long haul outbound. So this short haul is the target market for larger hydrogen aircraft. But in France the government are targeting air routes where the train journey is two hours or less. Trains being the most efficient form of transport.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210401-the-worlds-first-commercial-hydrogen-plane

 

[otherclive]

Really good episode of fully charged plus discussing the use of H2 vs battery for busses in urban environments. Seems battery is a good solution there too.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6rx2G64Ouc109AM7EPR8Bj?si=wAVAkCk9S2OofFh7MNDAEg&dl_branch=1

Some overseas cities are reintroducing trolley buses for inner areas and then as they leave the inner area they switch to battery which is already well charged to complete the outer area routes. We are a bit behind on our thinking in these area. The new trolley buses are worlds away from those we oldies remember.

 

[Guzzilazz]

Hydrogen is all very well, but with a liquefaction point of 20 Kelvin (-253C) the energy involved in keeping it at that temperature. transporting and storing it has to be taken into account as well!

 

[Ern]

Linde Gas produced Hydrogen gas and Linde Engineering built Hydrogen gas production facilities available as part of their turnkey portfolio around 18-20 years ago. Linde and Opel Cars produced or converted a small fleet of vehicles which were running around in Germany on Hydrogen gas. I don't know what happened to that project.

 

[otherclive]

Linde Gas produced Hydrogen gas and Linde Engineering built Hydrogen gas production facilities around 18 years ago. A fleet of Opel cars were produced and were running around on Hydrogen gas. I dont know more than this but

The Honda Clarity was originally hydrogen fuelled, but its was more a pilot type offering to assess the requirements. In the mid 1980s when working in Canada I had some meetings with the Ballard company who were developing hydrogen fuelled buses and other vehicles associated with fuel cells. Geoff Ballard was one of those visionaries who saw the potential problems associatedwith fossil fuels. The hydrogen was stored in metal hydrides in containers, akin to large sponges. My interest though wasn't for buses, but we saw a demonstration where a bullet was fired into full hydride container. The result was a "puff" and small flare which extinguished almost instantaneously, whereas had the tank contained petrol there would have been a conflagration.

https://www.ballard.com/about-ballard/our-history

 

[Buckman]

At Kemble where there are lots of 747s awaiting their fate there an Anglo-US company ZeroAvia developing a hydrogen commuter plane.

I can remember in 2018 passing a place in Spain somewhere between Zaragoza and Tereul where ther were a large number of planes parked up. I assumed it was an aeroplane graveyard.

 

[Tobes]

Linde Gas produced Hydrogen gas and Linde Engineering built Hydrogen gas production facilities around 18 years ago. A fleet of Opel cars were produced and were running around on Hydrogen gas. I dont know more than this but

There have been a number of Hydrogen fuelled vehicles over the years. Some H2 based on internal combustion (Mazda RX7 H2), some on fuel cells. The same is true for battery electric vehicles, around since the late 1800s and more recently as milk floats in the 60s to 80s. But H2 has never caught on. Why? IMHO for 2 reasons.
1) As a fuel produced from gas, its both expensive and a PITA to manage. Its way more volatile than hydrocarbon fuels and far less energy dense, and is no more efficient or CO2 free (on a wider scale) although clean at the tailpipe for local emissions.
2) Its simply not efficient, and therefor expensive to consume.
H2 has been on the cusp of being the major fuel for society in the next 10 years, for the last 50 years or so, and the lack of traction has mean that the deployed infrastructure is at best experimental. There are fewer than 10 operational H2 filling locations in the whole of the UK.

When compared to direct charged battery electric vehicles, the ubiquity is a "no brainer". Electricity is common place and the distribution and generation system both robust and scalable. Almost everyone in the UK has access to mains electricity, and therefor is not far from being able to charge a car (even if it cant be done direct from their living place), or at least understand the broad mechanisms involved. Usage of electricity to charge a car vs produce real green hydrogen via electrolysis is 3 times more efficient, so 3 times less expensive.

Yes - Electric cars are (in the main) still expensive compared to ICE cars, but the costs are falling, and - if you do a significant mileage - they are cheaper in the long run. Yes, they are in some ways less flexible than an ICE car, but again with a change in attitude to the way they are used, that can become an advantage, as they are more flexible in others.

What is clear is that ICE is going to go away (all be it slowly), and BEV is a very very long way ahead of H2 as the forerunner to replace it.

 

[Buckman]

You forget that it’s not impossible to transport hydrogen by pipeline and it’s not necessary to use a fuel cell. ICE can be designed to run on hydrogen. In fact JCB are doing that currently as their view is that full EV can be used on smaller machines but large ones in remoter locations need something else, so they are working with hydrogen fuelled engines. There won’t be a single solution to future energy needs so I’m quite relaxed about it as there is a growing momentum to achieve reduced emissions and increased renewable and/or nuclear.

The fact that H2 can be used to power a ICE is appealing and to covert the vehicle would be a lot cheaper than buying an EV new or second hand. Probably a large sector of motorists will never be able to afford to buy an EV even an old one.
There are many cars on the road today that are well over 20 years old and still going strong so no inclination to get into debt to buy an EV. Ours is now 25 years old with 115k on the clock and it never misses a beat.

 

[otherclive]

The fact that H2 can be used to power a ICE is appealing and to covert the vehicle would be a lot cheaper than buying an EV new or second hand. Probably a large sector of motorists will never be able to afford to buy an EV even an old one.
There are many cars on the road today that are well over 20 years old and still going strong so no inclination to get into debt to buy an EV. Ours is now 25 years old with 115k on the clock and it never misses a beat.

I would agree that if you have a run about that isn't expensive to run, and it does the job buying a new EV wouldn't make economic sense. When the time comes to change the run about then there will no doubt be options both ways, but that may involve considerations regarding the main car too. But as has been said ICE aren't going to disappear overnight so people can look at their circumstances at the time and make their choice.

 

[Tobes]

The fact that H2 can be used to power a ICE is appealing and to covert the vehicle would be a lot cheaper than buying an EV new or second hand. Probably a large sector of motorists will never be able to afford to buy an EV even an old one.
There are many cars on the road today that are well over 20 years old and still going strong so no inclination to get into debt to buy an EV. Ours is now 25 years old with 115k on the clock and it never misses a beat.

Thats only true in so far as a petrol car could be converted to run on diesel or vice versa by virtue of the fact it has a block with reciprocating pistons. The injection mechanism for H2 into the engine is completely different, the timing different, the porting different, even the air mix is different. You essentially need a new cylinder head, replacement ECU, entire secondary fuel system and tanks. Its far more invasive than an LPG conversion for a petrol car, and they too have gone by the wayside (when did you last see an LPG pump?).

The for the cost of conversion, you may as well do a battery EV conversion for the rolling chassis. Consider the introduction of E10 petrol to replace unleaded, and the introduction of unleaded to replace 2* and 4*. That is a relatively minor change and some cars on the road will not be compatible. The idea of converting a car to H2 as being a cost effective solution to keep an old car going is not going to catch on. That is not to say that older ICE cars should be ditched, not at all. They should be used and kept running while it is economically viable to do so. Electric cars will get cheaper. The 2nd hand market will develop and the infrastructure will mature.

This is one more of those step changes that people never thought that would happen, happening. It's just that the car is so central to our lives, such an expensive item and has such an iconic status in our culture, that changing (especially for anyone older than a Millenial - myself included) is a big step. For my children (21, 19, 16), they see EV as the future. They will learn to drive a manual (because I have one for that purpose) but I now doubt that any of them will own an ICE car. Indeed, I doubt any of them will own a car at all. far more likely that they will use the one I have until they can't and then will lease them (probably EV) on the short term basis they are needed.

It's a fast changing world out there...

 

[ProfJohnL]

There will be applications where H2 does make a lot of sense, but as things stand at the moment the cost and complexity of producing storing and distributing H2 far exceed that of petroleum fuels and electricity.

In the last 30 years, there have been several trials for H2 across the world, and none of them have been developed beyond the trial so far. That must indicate the schemes have proven to be not economically viable. That is probably compared to the petrochemical industry of the day, but as we use less petrochemicals, the costs of producing smaller amounts of petroleum will increase, and that might make some H2 systems more attractive.

But there is no doubt tha BEV's has stolen a march on the situation, and the investors in the BEV technology and charging infrastructures won't go away without a fight. I find it highly unlikely BEV's will be superseded by H2 in the next 25 to 40 years if at all.

What might happen in the future is not clear, perhaps someone will find a cheap and easy way to produce pure enough hydrogen for transport. Or a simpler way to contain it so it can be easily carried on a vehicle to fuel it.

Existing ICE technology can be converted to run on H2, and JCB has proven it. But in their case they have had to develop a new engine( based on a diesel crankcase and cylinders) to run on H2, its not simply a strap on conversion, so whether its actually possible to convert an existing ICE vehicle to run on H2 I'm not sure. It may be possible but the engines characteristics may change quite dramatically rendering a very different probably poorer performance.

 

[JTQ]

What is the more expensive or least expensive has as much to do with taxation manipulation as the technology.
I have little doubt diesel or petrol vehicle future use will be fashioned by taxation rather than genuine merit.

 

[Tobes]

What is the more expensive or least expensive has as much to do with taxation manipulation as the technology.
I have little doubt diesel or petrol vehicle future use will be fashioned by taxation rather than genuine merit.

That is very true - to a point. But you can only be taxed on something you buy - if you buy it. If you are fortunate enough to have a solar array or wind turbine on your own property, you are not buying electricity, you are generating it autonomously. Thats really really hard to beat in terms of a price model... The flip side of that is that it is undeniable that fossil fuels as an energy source require huge industrial processes that are inherently expensive to gather, refine and transport them. There is an embedded cost which simply wont go away. The same is true for H2 generation, liquefaction and storage, be it through steam reformation of natural gas or electrolysis, it's not a suburban rooftop process.

 

[Buckman]

Thats only true in so far as a petrol car could be converted to run on diesel or Its far more invasive than an LPG conversion for a petrol car, and they too have gone by the wayside (when did you last see an LPG pump?).

Last month at Morrisons when I topped up. Plenty of LPG pumps still available and I have a map for LPG pumps across the country.

 

[otherclive]

This snip from the Guardian might be of interest. Trolley lorries and no doubt long distance coaches too.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...rce=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=greenlight_email