Heating a home?

Jul 18, 2017
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In our home which is not very big we have air sourced heating and radiators in all the normal places. The overall temperature is set to 20C and the control is in the hallway. At night, it is set to 18C between 10pm and 5.30am. The Thermostatic radiator valves are opened fully in the bedroom, lounge and kitchen area 24/7 365.

Although it is set to 20C the bedroom seldom gets up to that temperature probably due to the size of the bedroom and location of the radiator. We are happy with this as a relaxed sleep. No issue in other bedroom which is only just big enough to swing a cat around.

We would like to have the lounge area warmer as feeling the cold more and more each year that goes by especially around my lower legs and feet If we turn up the temperature at the control unit to 21C or even 22C, the cost escalates tremendously. We can close bedroom doors, but closing bathroom, hallway and kitchen is not really an option for us due to pets. A bit naughty, but we also like to have the small long top window in the bedroom open during the day for a bit of fresh air as the home does not have any air bricks.

I dislike wearing heavy clothing to keep warmer. Hasn't really bothered us too much previously as we would fire up the gas heater in the lounge for about 30 minutes, but we would like to avoid doing that now and keep it for emergencies should we have a power failure which can happen in the winter months in a rural area.

Perhaps someone can give us some good tips about heating a home without huge costs in electric? Thanks.
 
Jun 16, 2020
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Your not really selling air sourced heating to me.

Don't think you understood the purposes‘s of air bricks, both of which were outdated about 40 years ago.

We use gas heating on a combi. Controlled by smart thermostats and valves. Comes to a bit under £1200, / year gas and electric, but we keep warm.

John
 
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Not a good idea to mix thermostats and TRV's as they fight especially if you have warm air in the equation.
The hall is usually designed to be cooler than living areas so expect the stat to be set a bit lower. Don't be afraid to turn your TRVs up to 4 or 5 if you need it to get the room warm - indeed are the TRV's working? If they haven't been changed a lot in recent times it is a good idea to remove the TRV head - don't worry, no water comes out - and push-pull the valve operating pin a few times. If it is sticky pull the pin out(ish - not too far) and smear some silicone grease, Waxoyl, or olive oil on the pin and again agitate it. Then replace the TRV head.
Finally check what temperature your boiler is set to. We had ours serviced the other day and the tech said he leaves them at 65C, whereas the chap last year left it at 70C!! I reset it to 60C and even then the radiators are too hot to touch. I usually end up with it about 58C.
One other thing springs to mind. What does the stat control? Does it switch the boiler on and off, does it switch the pump on and off, or does it have some effect on the warm air system? Could just be that one part is not working as it should.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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We normally have the thermostat in the lounge and it’s normal setting is 19 deg c. That way if the heating is on and the doors to the lounge are closed the lounge will come up to temperature very quickly. So you could try that with thermostat in the lounge set to 22-23 deg c, but the rest of the house may cool below what you like. Our bedrooms are normally set to quite low on the TRVs. We also have a log effect gas fire in the lounge which often obviates the need for CH.

From my monthly HIVE summary we are consistently 1.7-2.0 deg C below other SW users. Overall our annual energy cost is £900-1000 pa for a 4 bed detached house.
 
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Your not really selling air sourced heating to me.
Don't think you understood the purposes‘s of air bricks, both of which were outdated about 40 years ago.
We use gas heating on a combi. Controlled by smart thermostats and valves. Comes to a bit under £1200, / year gas and electric, but we keep warm.
John
We had the air source heating fitted about 8 years ago and find it is efficient. No gas in our area so it was that or storage heaters. Just looking for any tips as technical stuff will go over my head. LOL! Up to now basically I switch it on and leave it.
 
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When we want whole house heating if anyone is staying or at Xmas the lounge thermostat will be set higher than the TRVs so the heating keeps pumping heat out but not overheating the lounge whilst bringing the rest of the house to a more even temperature and with TRVs in the majority of rooms and areas the whole house begins to warm up nicely. But as soon as the visitors have left we revert it. A bit like the caravan where even in winter we don’t have heating on, but the dogs may have fleecy jumpers.
 
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Hi We brought a bungalow 4+ had a brand new Combi Boiler with the latest raditors on the market with thermostats and valves that when you switch the heating on with remote say you have it on at 20 deg c after 1hr we switch it of the raditors stay warm for another 30 mins you can set the remote at 10 degc if it drops at nightime it automatic comes on . We have a fireplace in the lounge with a electric fire 1kw when we brought it said it was cheap to run .
 
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This is a scheme I use, and it might work for you.

Due to medical conditions, my wife is essentially sedentary, and spends most of her day in the living room, and needs it to be at least 20 to 22C to be comfortable.

The main heating system is set to 19C on a thermostat (in the hall) . To make up the difference in the lounge I use a 1.7kW super insulated storage heater running on the Economy 7 night rate. This is a reasonably economic solution, but does require you to have night rate electricity . During warm weather I turn the storage radiator off
 
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We hav e oil as there's no gas here and wanted air source. Now am changing my mind. We have a color fire in the lounge but never use it, maybe you could do something similar. Or a wood burner? We pay 25p lite for oil so about 700does us the year heat and hot water. How are your costs?
 
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We hav e oil as there's no gas here and wanted air source. Now am changing my mind. We have a color fire in the lounge but never use it, maybe you could do something similar. Or a wood burner? We pay 25p lite for oil so about 700does us the year heat and hot water. How are your costs?
Our costs are quite reasonable if we keep the temperature at 20C throughout the home. Currently it works out at about £1000 annually, but we have only been with the new supplier since May.
Previous supplier estimated annual consumption at over £1200. Our home is well insulated and not very big as it is a semi detached single level home.
We are on single rate as E10 or E7 did not work for us and bills were even higher. We tend to change supplier on average every two years but will never ever move to BGAS again even if they were the cheapest deal. Once bitten twice shy!
 
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Our costs are quite reasonable if we keep the temperature at 20C throughout the home. Currently it works out at about £1000 annually, but we have only been with the new supplier since May.
Previous supplier estimated annual consumption at over £1200. Our home is well insulated and not very big as it is a semi detached single level home.
We are on single rate as E10 or E7 did not work for us and bills were even higher. We tend to change supplier on average every two years but will never ever move to BGAS again even if they were the cheapest deal. Once bitten twice shy!

Total bills have remained fairly constant on average for quite a few years. My consumption of £1200 for a 3 bed semi is about average and that’s comparing with figures published about 5 years ago. We do though have warmer rooms than you are suggesting. Daytime the hall and lounge are set to 21.5. The lounge will go up to 23.5 in the evening.

We have massive loft insulation. The cavity insulation was put in about 30 years ago and was a great improvement but I would love to have it updated but they are quoting about £2000.

Downside is that the conservatory is open to the kitchen. (Not very legal I know). But I have reroofed it with good insulation.

The other thing I have done, though not a cheap option and might take a long time to recoup the outlay. Is smart valves and thermostats as well as boiler temperature automatically set by the ambient temperature. Don’t know if they can be fitted to air sourced systems.

My system, Netatmo. Reports monthly and tells me my heating costs are below the norm for our area.

So your fuel bill seems pretty normal to me.

John
 
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If you present system does not provide you with enough temperature you have options which could be used individually of in combination.

If you cant produce enough temperature in the room the fundamental problem is your heat losses are too big for your system.

You might find if you updated your heating system with smart valves where you can set the times and desired temperatures for each room, you may save some on the rooms you don't need to be as warm and that might leave enough energy to heat the rooms you want to be warmer.

improving the insulation or reducing ventilation will also reduce heat losses.

As your needs are sensitive to temperature, then burning a flame of any sort inside the room to produce heat is probably a non starter as you would need to increase ventilation to prevent the build up of Carbon Monoxide, and that ventilation would let heat out of the room. That excludes LPG cabinet heaters, which also load teh air with moisture.

That leaves you with electric point of use heating. It doesn't matter what type of electric heater you use they are all 100% efficient at converting power to heat, but you might want to consider do you want a fan heater or a convector/radiant panel.

The further option is to increases the capacity of your air source heat pump to collect more heat from outside.

If you heating system is recent it might be worth contacting the company that specified it and ask then to review their figures for errors.
 
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If you present system does not provide you with enough temperature you have options which could be used individually of in combination.

If you cant produce enough temperature in the room the fundamental problem is your heat losses are too big for your system.

You might find if you updated your heating system with smart valves where you can set the times and desired temperatures for each room, you may save some on the rooms you don't need to be as warm and that might leave enough energy to heat the rooms you want to be warmer.

improving the insulation or reducing ventilation will also reduce heat losses.

As your needs are sensitive to temperature, then burning a flame of any sort inside the room to produce heat is probably a non starter as you would need to increase ventilation to prevent the build up of Carbon Monoxide, and that ventilation would let heat out of the room. That excludes LPG cabinet heaters, which also load teh air with moisture.

That leaves you with electric point of use heating. It doesn't matter what type of electric heater you use they are all 100% efficient at converting power to heat, but you might want to consider do you want a fan heater or a convector/radiant panel.

The further option is to increases the capacity of your air source heat pump to collect more heat from outside.

If you heating system is recent it might be worth contacting the company that specified it and ask then to review their figures for errors.
I am not sure about Smart valves and also not sure if I can install them or whether I need a professional to install them.
I suffer from arthritis and during the winter it can be painful hence the need for a bit of extra heat in our living area.
Thanks to many forums like this we are reminded of the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning which is at the most we will only have the gas heater on for about 20-30 minutes and with the living room door open.
I am aware that by increasing the temperature by 1 -2C to about 21.5C in the living area will probably be the solution, but it comes at a cost and what I am looking at is to reduce that cost by using tips offered.
Would you please explain to me Smart valves and how they work. Thanks.
 

Sam Vimes

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Without knowing the construction and layout of your house it's not easy to provide advice that's going to give a quick solution and at minimal cost increase.

One important starting point with any home is to consider insulation. Many energy companies have been offering free additional insulation to qualifying properties. This could be loft or internal or external walls. At least two of my neighbours have had this done and say that the benefits are somewhat noticeable. One had loft insulation they other had it applied to internal walls. Recently the social housing in a nearby town had external wall insulation applied and this was done very neatly and visually not noticeable. I cant comment on the benefits

Playing around with ventilation requires care. You need adequate ventilation for a healthy house and possibly any appliances that burn fuel but you also need to make sure that unwanted draughts are fixed.

Give some thought to the fact that you are closing some doors. It might be better to have all doors open to try and get a uniform distribution of heat rather than sitting in one closed off room with adjacent rooms at a lower temperature possibly pulling the heat out of your closed room. Similarly try keeping the heat setting constant rather than dropping it over night.

But I can't stress enough about having good insulation to minimise heat loss. Same applies to windows; they need to have a good construction.

Positioning of radiators is equally important as is their size. Maybe if one part of your lounge is warmer than another a small low noise fan to push the warm air around may help.

Maybe you need to 'plug and play' as they say.
 
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I am not sure about Smart valves and also not sure if I can install them or whether I need a professional to install them.

As I said earlier, smart systems may take years to recoup the outlay. But they are very convenient.

But at the moment we know what fuel source you use but not how that is accumulated and distributed within the building. Assuming you have standard radiators with TRV’s then these are already very good and advanced. The system needs to be ‘balanced’. That is the right sized rads for each room, but the TRV’s fine tune that aspect. As someone said earlier, room stats don’t work well with a TRV system. But do with a smart system.

In a SMART system, in simple terms. You first need the TRV. If you don’t already have them then in order to fit them the system will need draining down. The smart valves then simply replace the tops of the TRV’s. They all connect to a hub via your WiFi. This then controls your pump.

Cost is about £70 per rad plus the hub. So not cheap. They can be fitted DIY but should not cost much to have them done professionally.

It provides far more control than TRV’s and/or programmer alone. If I wanted I could set an infinite number of programs each controlling individual radiators. I can do all this from anywhere in the world. It can be geofenced to sense who is in the house and to turn the heating on or off depending on their proximity.

But I would not advise getting a system for about £500 to save on your bills. It won’t make a lot of difference.

Sam made good points regarding the building construction. But to get the best out of the property an understanding of insulation (types and methods), thermal retention. Ventilation and room sealing, etc.

Construction thinking has changed and improved in all the above respects for many years. This is little understood by many. Just look at how many people still don’t appreciate the benefits of loft insulation.

But, although the present building is a limiting factor, it does not mean it can’t be improved upon. But you will always reach a stage that it is no longer cost effective.

New government grants came in in September. The Green Scheme. Look online and speak to a local government advisor or a regulated installer.



John
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Don’t forget that if you improve loft insulation you really need to improve loft space ventilation too in order to keep condensation at bay. The house we moved to last year had been fitted with new wall insulation as well as loft in 2018under the Government grant scheme at the time. The loft insulation is now 18 inches deep. But the previous owners had done nothing about loft ventilation. The boards had small vent holes but time had seen these pretty much bunged up. As the boards were asbestos we decided not to tamper with them. So instead we had the “felt” removed and a new breathable membrane installed. The old “ felt” was about the worse you could get. It was advertised by Geoff Capes in the mid 1980s, but only available for a couple of years before being taken off the market due to its exacerbated condensation problems. Fortunately the poor insulation in our house countered the “felts” shortcomings.
 
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Don’t forget that if you improve loft insulation you really need to improve loft space ventilation too in order to keep condensation at bay.

Sorry Clive, that a bit misleading. You can improve the loft insulation without affecting perfectly good existing ventilation. Swap improve for check.

However, the ventilation should be checked, and a good installer would install new installation without disturbing eaves ventilation.

Older properties would not have a vapour barrier which increases the need for ventilation.

Also light fittings should have their own fire protection included. Legislation for which is OTT in my opinion and does not take in consideration the reduced heat build up in modern lighting.


John
 
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As you seem to be cost sensitive, apart from closing windows and blocking draughts under doors, you should be aware that to create a warmer home will need you to invest in either or a combination of infrastructure and running costs.

Long term better insulation will cover its installation costs and going forward induce no further running costs. Pay back comes through the reduced amount of energy you need to heat your home. This is the most ecologically sound approach.

Similarly adding smart valves and controls will have a high initial cost, but hopefully the savings in wasted energy used to unnecessarily heat rooms when they are not in use, can be redirected to the areas you do want to heat. on going the energy costs may not be much different, but you are making better use of teh energy you are buying. This done in combination with improving heat retention is technically great, but the high initial cost will take longer to recoup.

Using additional point of use heating has the lowest capitol costs but incurs the highest running costs. These will almost certainly be electric

I mentioned using cabinet gas heaters in a previous post, Let me be clear these are mobile heaters that have a space behind the radiant burner for an LPG bottle. The do not have an external flue and consequently should not be used indoors unless there is plenty of free air exchange with the outside. Even after only a few minuets of use inside a closed domestic room, the level of Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide will begin to rise . This really is not advised.

If you were referring to a normal gas fire fitted in a fire place, then assuming it was installed correctly, it will have a flue and enough air ventilation to ensure it will run safely even over long times.

All forms of energy can be defined in terms of cost per KwH, When it comes to the costs of various types of fuel you use it will depend to the tariffs you are on. In decending cost generally Electricity (day rates) are expensive, LPG followed by heating Oil with mains gas and electricity (Night rates) the cheapest.
 
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Sorry Clive, that a bit misleading. You can improve the loft insulation without affecting perfectly good existing ventilation. Swap improve for check.

However, the ventilation should be checked, and a good installer would install new installation without disturbing eaves ventilation.

Older properties would not have a vapour barrier which increases the need for ventilation.

Also light fittings should have their own fire protection included. Legislation for which is OTT in my opinion and does not take in consideration the reduced heat build up in modern lighting.


John
It all depends on what is considered perfectly good ventilation. In the case of the house we moved into the ventilation holes in the soffits were quite small and it wasn’t the new insulation that had bunged them up it was 35 years of general detritus. Our last house of a similar age only had an air brick at each end of the roof so I knocked some blocks out and put in some more air bricks when I improved the loft insulation. Again the soffits were asbestos so best left alone.
 

Sam Vimes

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Personally I would avoid any home appliance with the word Smart or AI in it. No I'm not a luddite, I've worked in the Hi Tech industry for many years albeit not on the consumer side. The only thing smart about them, IMO, is the way these companies convince people to spend money solving a problem they don't have.

Too often these smart things require access to the ubiqituous cloud so that they are run from a server somewhere. A number of companies providing these services either go broke or just stop the service, leaving the owner with some redundant hardware.

Rant over.

As another low cost thing to try - some folks fit reflective foil behind their radiators in the hope that this pushes more heat back into the room and not through the walls. I have no idea if this works or not but it would seem inexpensive to try out.

Just as an aside - LED v Halogen bulbs. With the switch to LED bulbs for lower energy costs a side affect is the loss of heating from them compared with Halogen or Incandescent. In a room with say 6 over head LED lights they would typically run at about 6 x 5W = 30W. About 18 Watts or so of that might go out as heat. With Halogen, they might be in the region of 6 x 50W = 300W of which the heat output could be 250W or so. Cosy in the winter perhaps - not so in the summer. :)
 
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It all depends on what is considered perfectly good ventilation. In the case of the house we moved into the ventilation holes in the soffits were quite small and it wasn’t the new insulation that had bunged them up it was 35 years of general detritus. Our last house of a similar age only had an air brick at each end of the roof so I knocked some blocks out and put in some more air bricks when I improved the loft insulation. Again the soffits were asbestos so best left alone.

Adequate ventilation is simply that which is sufficient to maintain a dry environment.

My previous post was simply pointing out that improving the insulation does not automatically mean increasing the ventilation.
Personally I would avoid any home appliance with the word Smart or AI in it. No I'm not a luddite, I've worked in the Hi Tech industry for many years albeit not on the consumer side. The only thing smart about them, IMO, is the way these companies convince people to spend money solving a problem they don't have.

Too often these smart things require access to the ubiqituous cloud so that they are run from a server somewhere. A number of companies providing these services either go broke or just stop the service, leaving the owner with some redundant hardware.

Rant over.

Can’t disagree with that, except to say, by people adopting these new technologies we learn, move forward and eventually improve. But often the public are the guinea pigs. This is why I have twice advised the OP not to run away with the idea that paying for such an installation will have great benefits.

I am grateful to all those that buy expense electric and hybrid cars which allow the hopefully rapid improvement in transport.



John
 
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Thanks for some very good information. I think that underfloor heating would have resolved all the issues for nice cosy room however retro fitting is not an option.
I think the way forward would be to turn down the themos on the radiators in the other rooms including kitchen and increasing temperature on control panel to 21.5C. I have no control over the "control" radiator in the hallway and the radiator in bathroom which also serves as a heated towel rail
Can only try and see how we get on as today seems a good day to do some testing as very windy and cool.
Just to add we have loft insulation really deep and also the outside walls have had some insulation gunk pumped into them
 
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Thanks for some very good information. I think that underfloor heating would have resolved all the issues for nice cosy room however retro fitting is not an option.
I think the way forward would be to turn down the themos on the radiators in the other rooms including kitchen and increasing temperature on control panel to 21.5C. I have no control over the "control" radiator in the hallway and the radiator in bathroom which also serves as a heated towel rail
Can only try and see how we get on as today seems a good day to do some testing as very windy and cool.
Just to add we have loft insulation really deep and also the outside walls have had some insulation gunk pumped into them
Thanks for some very good information. I think that underfloor heating would have resolved all the issues for nice cosy room however retro fitting is not an option.
I think the way forward would be to turn down the themos on the radiators in the other rooms including kitchen and increasing temperature on control panel to 21.5C. I have no control over the "control" radiator in the hallway and the radiator in bathroom which also serves as a heated towel rail
Can only try and see how we get on as today seems a good day to do some testing as very windy and cool.
Just to add we have loft insulation really deep and also the outside walls have had some insulation gunk pumped into them


A thought on your proposed approach which seems logical. If you had a RF thermostat fitted you could bring it into the lounge and increase the room temperature as required. If the lounge were closed off other rooms would cool a bit depending on insulation. But before going to bed you then place the thermostat back in it’s holder in the hall and press Auto. The system will then revert to your preset settings for time and temperature. Our daughter does this with hers. At weekends she often does early shifts so the heating comes on early. But if she isn’t doing a shift she switches the schedule to off. Takes the thermostat upstairs and then as she wakes from a lay in she just presses it to On.

Typical price of RF thermostat around £60 plus fitting. They don’t require Internet connections at all. So no concerns in that direction.
 
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A thought on your proposed approach which seems logical. If you had a RF thermostat fitted you could bring it into the lounge and increase the room temperature as required. If the lounge were closed off other rooms would cool a bit depending on insulation. But before going to bed you then place the thermostat back in it’s holder in the hall and press Auto. The system will then revert to your preset settings for time and temperature. Our daughter does this with hers. At weekends she often does early shifts so the heating comes on early. But if she isn’t doing a shift she switches the schedule to off. Takes the thermostat upstairs and then as she wakes from a lay in she just presses it to On.

Typical price of RF thermostat around £60 plus fitting. They don’t require Internet connections at all. So no concerns in that direction.

All an RF thermostat will do is turn on or off the pump depending on its setting and location. If using TRV’s. Only those rads that the TRV’s happen to have open will respond, so might even be in a different room. Room stats, fixed or otherwise, work against TRV’s.
But we don’t yet know if the OP has a system using TRV’s. It’s just an assumption.

John
 

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