Is this for real?

[Dustydog]

Britain fires up coal plant as solar panels suffer in hot weather.​

According to the newspapers today our solar panels will not function properly with the present heat and bright sunshine. The wrong kind of sunshine 😜.Just like the wrong snow, the wrong leaves, the wrong rain. 😵‍💫😵‍💫

 

[otherclive]

Britain fires up coal plant as solar panels suffer in hot weather.​

According to the newspapers today our solar panels will not function properly with the present heat and bright sunshine. The wrong kind of sunshine 😜.Just like the wrong snow, the wrong leaves, the wrong rain. 😵‍💫😵‍💫

Panels are used in hot sunny countries. EG there’s talk of a power supply trunk from Morocco to Spain. Wonder if panels are designed and optimised for particular regions.

 

[Tobes]

Almost all semiconductors operate more efficiently when cool. Solar panels are no different in that respect. Different panels have different tolerance to heat.
I am not sure when that article was from, but to give some context; here is the grid level solar and coal in the UK for the last 24 hours. The coal is the grey bit at the bottom of the yellow (solar). This does not include solar from embedded generation (i.e. rooftop solar that is behind a consumption meter). Its hard to conclude that the coal is there to replace solar generation lost to hot panels from this (especially as some of the coal generation was after dark).

 

[otherclive]

Almost all semiconductors operate more efficiently when cool. Solar panels are no different in that respect. Different panels have different tolerance to heat.
I am not sure when that article was from, but to give some context; here is the grid level solar and coal in the UK for the last 24 hours. The coal is the grey bit at the bottom of the yellow (solar). This does not include solar from embedded generation (i.e. rooftop solar that is behind a consumption meter). Its hard to conclude that the coal is there to replace solar generation lost to hot panels from this (especially as some of the coal generation was after dark). View attachment 4873

So the real facts are that lack of wind at night required some coal back up. No coal being used at this time.

 

[Tobes]

So the real facts are that lack of wind at night required some coal back up.

Here is the same picture but with wind instead of solar. The way I read this is "UK electricity demand required that we leverage our diverse energy generation portfolio, just like normal".

Here is a picture of the full mix.

 

[Tobes]

BTW - I would add that during the time from 4pm to sundown, where demand is high and solar tailed off, there was a huge storm front that swept north up the UK seriously curtailing output. Here is my rooftop solar output from yesterday... Note the huge drop off at 3pm to 4pm as the storm arrived...

The headline may as well have read "Coal fired up to support people turning the lights on as the storm passed"

 

[Tobes]

BTW - I would add that during the time from 4pm to sundown, where demand is high and solar tailed off, there was a huge storm front that swept north up the UK seriously curtailing output. Here is my rooftop solar output from yesterday... Note the huge drop off at 3pm to 4pm as the storm arrived...

The headline may as well have read "Coal fired up to support people turning the lights on as the storm passed"



View attachment 4877

Again - just for comparison - here is the rooftop output from Saturday when we didn't have an afternoon storm (like we did on Sunday too). The wiggly bit in the afternoon is clouds going by and some haze building up, but output stays very strong to almost 7pm.

 

[Tobes]

I also just noticed that yesterday, my peak output was just over 2kW. On Saturday (which was a cooler day) my peak output was just over 1.6kW. 🤷‍♂️
"Hot weather has no impact on performance of some things..."

 

[Dustydog]

Almost all semiconductors operate more efficiently when cool. Solar panels are no different in that respect. Different panels have different tolerance to heat.
I am not sure when that article was from, but to give some context; here is the grid level solar and coal in the UK for the last 24 hours. The coal is the grey bit at the bottom of the yellow (solar). This does not include solar from embedded generation (i.e. rooftop solar that is behind a consumption meter). Its hard to conclude that the coal is there to replace solar generation lost to hot panels from this (especially as some of the coal generation was after dark). View attachment 4873

Todays DT

 

[Tobes]

From today’s BBC.
Renewable energy: Is it getting too hot for solar panels? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-65907342

 

[Hutch]

 

[Sam Vimes]

There is truth in the fact that PV panels do reduce their output from the norm, when temperature increases.

The open output voltage from PV panels is typically specified at 25degC and temperature rises above this may cause a drop in output from about 0.2% to 0.5% . This may not seem much if you think that the temperatures we've seen recently may be around 30degC, but that's air temperature. Panel temperatures can get very much higher.

While my solar panel is for hot water it has registered collector temperatures above 65degC. So a 40deg rise could mean a loss in output of maybe 8 to 20% on a PV panel.

Couple this with the fact that as PV panels age their efficiency also drops, possibly by as much as 15% over a 25 year life span.

Many panel installations are reaching their end of life and were probably not as efficient as later versions, anyway.

Putting PV panels on a roof may not be the best practice if high temperature is a serious factor as the heat from roofs can exacerbate the problem. Free flow air around the panels can help, so ground based installations could be better, although not practical for most home installations.

Our Community Hall is just in the process of installing PV panels but only because we could get a 100% grant. Initially it was going to be roof mounted but the old building wouldn't support it. We have to have a ground based version and now have to find another £7k from somewhere. I don't know yet why such a large increase from the original £25k for roof mounted.

Nothings as straightforward as it seems these days.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The quote from the "newspapers" is sadly just another example of how they try to to make a drama out of nothing.

The way this story was posted in the paper was deliberately designed to link the thought that becasue of a drop in PV output the grid needed to prop up the grid by firing up a Coal fired station.

As subsequent posts have shown, that was not the reason, So why do papers deliberately make such negative headlines which spread fear?

I am certain that a lot of issues are blow up out of all proportion by the press and media and that has led to situations that become worse becasue of their polarising attitudes.

As I was shopping on Friday I passed the newspaper stand and noticed these two publications sitting next door to each other, and I wish to make it very clear I'm not making a political statement. I'm just showing how the same story can be reported so differently, and ultimately how can't trust any of them to be completely accurate .



Because newspaper print readership is falling I suppose they have had to start writing fiction to try and bolster their dwindling money mountains after paying off the claims for invasions of privacy, and phone hacking.

 

[otherclive]

The quote from the "newspapers" is sadly just another example of how they try to to make a drama out of nothing.

The way this story was posted in the paper was deliberately designed to link the thought that becasue of a drop in PV output the grid needed to prop up the grid by firing up a Coal fired station.

As subsequent posts have shown, that was not the reason, So why do papers deliberately make such negative headlines which spread fear?

I am certain that a lot of issues are blow up out of all proportion by the press and media and that has led to situations that become worse becasue of their polarising attitudes.

As I was shopping on Friday I passed the newspaper stand and noticed these two publications sitting next door to each other, and I wish to make it very clear I'm not making a political statement. I'm just showing how the same story can be reported so differently, and ultimately how can't trust any of them to be completely accurate .

View attachment 4903

Because newspaper print readership is falling I suppose they have had to start writing fiction to try and bolster their dwindling money mountains after paying off the claims for invasions of privacy, and phone hacking.

Don’t though tar all newspapers with the same brush.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I think one of the problems is that in my opinion we are a nation that seems to excel at cynicism and negativity and this is what many of the news outlets rely on. The old adage of 'No news is good news' can also be played as 'Bad news is good news', which perhaps helps sell some news articles.

An interesting comment I came upon the other day from a prominent figure - so prominent that I can't remember who it was - said that if a news headline starts with a question then the answer is automatically No!

The article in the link above fullfills this. But because of our largely in built cynicism we'll probably go and read this in the hope that there's some truth in it.

One of the issues is that there are so many 'news outlets' - not just papers, but social media - which are plying for readership. So headlines are whats now called Clickbait and the driver behind this is usually advertising.

Also as far as news papers are concerned there are many circulations around the UK but many are owned by the same group and the same articles or derivations thereof are regurgitated. The more you see, the more you begin to belive there must be some truth in it.

And of course the rise of the machines and Artificial Intelligence which is quite capable of producing untrue articles at the press of a button but in such a way that they seem plausible.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Don’t though tar all newspapers with the same brush.

But I do!

I've yet to see any national newspaper that doesn't seek to sensationalise headlines. And even local papers are doing more of it.

As the ability of the national press to influence public opinion is diluted by the equally if not more biased and inflammatory electronic social media platforms, they seem to be intent on make bigger and wilder headlines and use ill researched stories to attract more sales.

It makes virtually impossible to get to the real truth behind many situations.

Who knows, the round earth society might have been right all along! And was Wallace and Grommit's A good day out in reality Nasa astronauts in costume!

 

[Dustydog]

But I do!

I've yet to see any national newspaper that doesn't seek to sensationalise headlines. And even local papers are doing more of it.

As the ability of the national press to influence public opinion is diluted by the equally if not more biased and inflammatory electronic social media platforms, they seem to be intent on make bigger and wilder headlines and use ill researched stories to attract more sales.

It makes virtually impossible to get to the real truth behind many situations.

Who knows, the round earth society might have been right all along! And was Wallace and Grommit's A good day out in reality Nasa astronauts in costume!

Seems nothing has changed for decades

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Solar doesn't work without light.
Wind doesn't work on still days.
Nuclear produces radioactive waste with a half-life of many many years!
The only truly green source of energy that runs 24/7 365(6) days a year is tidal!
Investment in it is miniscule!
Let's face it, even King Canute couldn't stop the tides 🤔

 

[otherclive]

But I do!

I've yet to see any national newspaper that doesn't seek to sensationalise headlines. And even local papers are doing more of it.

As the ability of the national press to influence public opinion is diluted by the equally if not more biased and inflammatory electronic social media platforms, they seem to be intent on make bigger and wilder headlines and use ill researched stories to attract more sales.

It makes virtually impossible to get to the real truth behind many situations.

Who knows, the round earth society might have been right all along! And was Wallace and Grommit's A good day out in reality Nasa astronauts in costume!

Despite all the shenanigans on Thursday i would hardly call this front page from Friday to be ” sensationalised”. Pretty objective to my kind.

 

[Tobes]

There is truth in the fact that PV panels do reduce their output from the norm, when temperature increases.

The open output voltage from PV panels is typically specified at 25degC and temperature rises above this may cause a drop in output from about 0.2% to 0.5% . This may not seem much if you think that the temperatures we've seen recently may be around 30degC, but that's air temperature. Panel temperatures can get very much higher.

While my solar panel is for hot water it has registered collector temperatures above 65degC. So a 40deg rise could mean a loss in output of maybe 8 to 20% on a PV panel.

Couple this with the fact that as PV panels age their efficiency also drops, possibly by as much as 15% over a 25 year life span.

Many panel installations are reaching their end of life and were probably not as efficient as later versions, anyway.

Putting PV panels on a roof may not be the best practice if high temperature is a serious factor as the heat from roofs can exacerbate the problem. Free flow air around the panels can help, so ground based installations could be better, although not practical for most home installations.

Our Community Hall is just in the process of installing PV panels but only because we could get a 100% grant. Initially it was going to be roof mounted but the old building wouldn't support it. We have to have a ground based version and now have to find another £7k from somewhere. I don't know yet why such a large increase from the original £25k for roof mounted.

Nothings as straightforward as it seems these days.

With hindsight, I should have posted the punchline to the BBC article question “Is it too hot for solar?”. The answer in the article is a clear “no”.

I am not sure that there are many panels deployed today coming to the end of their life. My panels deployed in 2012 are guaranteed to have lost only 20% efficiency from new after 25 years. So far they have lost 0% of my year on year production is to go by.

Heat is _not_ a serious issue. It has a small impact on efficiency, but it’s immaterial. I just checked the surface temperature of my panels, it’s 34C in full sun with ambient air temp of 23C. Panels have got more efficient over the years, but by as little as 5%. But here is the thing. Deploying _any_ panel is better (more efficient) than _no_ panel. Once in place the panel will continue to generate until it is physically turned off or decommissioned. Even if it degrades to say 50% after 50 years (which it won’t) that’s still infinitely more than no panel would produce…

For anyone or any institution that has a long term plan (longer than 10 years in a single building) solar panels are a “no brainer”. The electricity they produce is clean, free and has basically zero maintenance.

Ripple energy project 3 is a large solar farm with a project lifespan of 40 years.

 

[saint-spoon]

Mine Worked fine over the weekend keeping up with the demands of the various electronic gadgets that my children insist on taking caravaning.