With the latest dire warnings on health issues attributed to diesels, are the days of diesel over? Can the latest turbo petrol powered cars provide enough torque to tow well?
Is this the end of diesel tow cars?
- Thread starter oldagetraveller1
- Start date
I certainly think that diesel will come under even more pressure on environment and health grounds. But engine developments may still eke out some improvements, but these will be at the expense of fuel economy, complexity and possibly reliability. Another trend is the significant weight reductions being introduce into cars, which may require a rethink on the 85% guidelines. Perhaps the caravan will have more towing aids installed. Who knows. Regarding your question there is no doubt that turbo petrol cars can develop oodles of torque. One of my best tow cars was the Saab 9000 2.3 CSE with 225bbhp but its fuel economy wasn't much to write home about. My existing Subaru is non turbo at 150bhp, but the same engine in the turbo variant has masses of torque. The saviour of us caravaners will be small highly rated turbo petrol engines supplemented by electrical drive motors which will boost the torque beyond your wildest dreams. But whether there is a market for such vehicles depends on how the manufacturers see it. You will see Discovery Sports, Foresters, Tiguans etc all sporting hybrid electric drive systems. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is there already, but what it can tow I don't know. Whether this will filter down into the "ordinary" motors in such a manner that they could tow remains to be seen.
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV tows 1500kg with 75kg noseweight. Ordinary Outlander is 2000kg and 100kg noseweight. Interesting to see if Discovery Sport has similar reductions in capability. Chances are it will as the weight and location of the battery and motors will have an effect on total vehicle weight, axle weight etc.
More bollocks about diesel cars why not start with the massive diesel engines in merchant ships, better still tell the Indians and the Chinese to stop building two coal fired power stations every week, I can't wait till this country gets it's head of the sand and start fracking and open up all the coal pits we closed down and build more nuke power stations,
Forget all these here today gone tomorrow doom merchants.
SWMBO new Kia diesel c'eed is ZERO road tax! Hardly the true end of the diesel.
SWMBO new Kia diesel c'eed is ZERO road tax! Hardly the true end of the diesel.
Government may try to diminish diesel up take, but it won't happen over night. Figures for 2014 indicate that 82% of vehicles registered are private cars, that's 26 million. roughly 9.3 million (36%) of these are diesel. Alienating all these drivers would produce a significant political swing, and change the colour of our government.
As someone looking at replacing the car I am not sure which way to go. A diesel would be the better for my purposes but if the current attack on diesels continues then I am not sure it would be worth anything when it comes to the time to replace that one.
It does appear that several cities could be charging diesels to enter by 2020 although that looks a bit earlier than practical to me. I do not know if this is going to be the city centre or a far larger area and at what level the charges will be levied. What is clear is that a large number of cars in cities are there on business, if they are charged if diesels then suddenly petrol will be the fuel of choice and the market for diesels will be gone overnight.
As we have a MTPLM of only 1350 kg we are likely to have a fair choice but for those with heavier caravans life might become more difficult. Any thoughts on suitable petrol engined cars.
It does appear that several cities could be charging diesels to enter by 2020 although that looks a bit earlier than practical to me. I do not know if this is going to be the city centre or a far larger area and at what level the charges will be levied. What is clear is that a large number of cars in cities are there on business, if they are charged if diesels then suddenly petrol will be the fuel of choice and the market for diesels will be gone overnight.
As we have a MTPLM of only 1350 kg we are likely to have a fair choice but for those with heavier caravans life might become more difficult. Any thoughts on suitable petrol engined cars.
They will ban older diesel car i would think , a bit like when they did the lez thing in London a few years back. It was done to stop old polluting lorries going into London. Euro 6 diesels are much cleaner so my guess is they will be ok for a while?
They will find something to help cut the emissions or more importantly the Nox gasses that diesels produce, who would have thought that sheep's wee would have helped?
I have just changed my car and again have gone for a diesel, first run out and i was getting 31 to the gallon not bad at all for a v6 towing a twin axle?
They will find something to help cut the emissions or more importantly the Nox gasses that diesels produce, who would have thought that sheep's wee would have helped?
I have just changed my car and again have gone for a diesel, first run out and i was getting 31 to the gallon not bad at all for a v6 towing a twin axle?
Currently towing with one of only 2 saloon cars heavy enough to tow the caravan. It's a 3 litre V6 with 7 speed auto box and Euro 6 compliant through Ad Blu injection.
Have been considering options over the past 3 months for when it's a chance to change vehicle. The current version of the car is lighter than this and can't have a tow bar fitted. The other saloon capable of towing the caravan is not what I want and has permanent 4 wheel drive, and is also diesel.
I've test driven a few options, that given the requisite kerb weight means they are SUV / Chelsea Tractor type vehicles.
So I've pushed the button on a 3 litre V6 diesel with Ad Blu and a 9 speed auto gearbox and all wheel drive. May well keep the current saloon and swap out the other half's town runaround for the new vehicle. The current car was bought primarily for survivability in event of a shunt as I tend to do long commutes (e.g. 9 months 343 miles each way out on Monday back Thursday night) that the diesel gave excellent economy. At motorway cruising speed it returns over 50mpg with a range of 800 miles solo. Towing it gives 34mpg. The intention was to take it to 500k miles and bury it. A top end diesel is the only viable option with the use I require.
The current car runs at 1800rpm in 7th at motorway cruising speed, the new one is 1500rpm in 9th, kicks out less CO2.
In respect of cities, will there be cars in cities in say 20 years time, let alone internal combustion engine trucks and busses. A lot of the future cities vision is of non personal individual transport within the city. If there were better transport options currently in cities there would be no need to drive. A big factor for a family is cost of public transport. It's pennies to go to London by car person on a weekend, compared to a train that is 10's of £ per person. Who wants to drive in Paris, let alone tow through there?
Our caravanning lives will be with a diesel tow car I'm sure.
Have been considering options over the past 3 months for when it's a chance to change vehicle. The current version of the car is lighter than this and can't have a tow bar fitted. The other saloon capable of towing the caravan is not what I want and has permanent 4 wheel drive, and is also diesel.
I've test driven a few options, that given the requisite kerb weight means they are SUV / Chelsea Tractor type vehicles.
So I've pushed the button on a 3 litre V6 diesel with Ad Blu and a 9 speed auto gearbox and all wheel drive. May well keep the current saloon and swap out the other half's town runaround for the new vehicle. The current car was bought primarily for survivability in event of a shunt as I tend to do long commutes (e.g. 9 months 343 miles each way out on Monday back Thursday night) that the diesel gave excellent economy. At motorway cruising speed it returns over 50mpg with a range of 800 miles solo. Towing it gives 34mpg. The intention was to take it to 500k miles and bury it. A top end diesel is the only viable option with the use I require.
The current car runs at 1800rpm in 7th at motorway cruising speed, the new one is 1500rpm in 9th, kicks out less CO2.
In respect of cities, will there be cars in cities in say 20 years time, let alone internal combustion engine trucks and busses. A lot of the future cities vision is of non personal individual transport within the city. If there were better transport options currently in cities there would be no need to drive. A big factor for a family is cost of public transport. It's pennies to go to London by car person on a weekend, compared to a train that is 10's of £ per person. Who wants to drive in Paris, let alone tow through there?
Our caravanning lives will be with a diesel tow car I'm sure.
Raywood said:
When London announced the LEZ it encompassed the area within the M25 and as said above it targeted the older diesels. But there were inconsistences in that where a vehicle had both a station wagon, or van type body the station wagon was allowed whereas the van type was refused entry. A clear example was the Land Rover Defender 200/300TDI. Certainly we will see the progressive imposition of taxes/duties on diesels and as the technology required to clean up the emissions gets ever more complex the cost of ownership is likely to increase.
You could look at the Subaru Legacy/Outback petrols as a tow car. The 2.5 litre has a bit more "oomph" than my Forester but they weigh more.
Vag offer a 180ps petrol with 236 pound feet, more than enough to tow 1500kg IMO.
They also do more powerful versions with more torque.
They also do more powerful versions with more torque.
it will never happen what about all the unsold diesel will that shove up the price of petrol, then you have all your black taxi cabs, farmers running round in old diesel Land Rovers so out go the Tories at the next election, what ever the price of fuel in this country we are ripped off my lad still pays well under a $ a gallon in the States,
Very true. I think that any move to reduce the usage of diesel powered cars will come in the form of imposing higher taxes or stricter emissions control on new cars. The subject does annoy me because the simplest way to improve air quality is to make public transport affordable, reliable and comfortable. It is cheaper, far more convenient, and a lot easier if I drive to work rather than catch public transport… and I am guaranteed a seat.
One of the things that will happen, especially if our next government is swaying towards the left, is a massive “Green” tax on diesel just like they did on leaded petrol, and then unleaded petrol. Wrapping up government revenue in a pseudo-environmental jacket because they have taken the working persons tax loading to the highest level it has ever been already.
One of the things that will happen, especially if our next government is swaying towards the left, is a massive “Green” tax on diesel just like they did on leaded petrol, and then unleaded petrol. Wrapping up government revenue in a pseudo-environmental jacket because they have taken the working persons tax loading to the highest level it has ever been already.
pitpony said:
Its true that within London Black cabs are said to be responsible for one third of NOX and PM2.5/10 pollution. Given Londons overall problems with air quality (and other uk cities too) the new Ultra Low Emission Zone is being introduced in 2020 and covers the same area as the Congestion Zone. If you are above the stated level you will pay to enter it in addition to the charges for the CZ. From January 2018 no new diesel taxis will be licensed in London. Any new taxi must be Zero Emissions Capable with CO2 less than 50gm/km and a minimum range of 30 miles without emissions. Any taxi requiring an internal combustion engine must be petrol and still have a 30 mile ZEC range. There are also some pretty stringent conditions on new Private Hire cars too. And older vehicles must be taken off the road within a given timescale, supported by grants.
As you can imagine the restrictions on cars will be equally tough. A petrol car to EU4 can enter the zone until 2020, so that means cars14 years old by 2020 will have to pay the charges after that date. For diesels registered by September 2015 they must be EU6 and again after 2020 will have to pay the ULEZ charge.. Residents will be "encouraged" to buy cleaner cars!
There a whole raft of details on the TFL ULEZ website covering commercial vehicle etc. Suffice to say what London does today other cities will be following tomorrow. The push for cleaner vehicles is two pronged. One to make them more efficient by getting weight down and improving aerodynamics, the second is by developing powertrain and driver aid technology. The pace with which these changes will arrive should not be underestimated.
Even allowing for the fact that the US gallon is less than the Imperial gallon I don't think that fuel prices in the US are at such a low price. The average price for petrol per US gallon is $2.14. (EIA website) , with the west coast quite a bit higher. But its still cheap even at that price.
In fairness London does have a pretty good public transport system compared to many other places
................there is nothing new. :cheer:
The Great Horse Manure Crisis
...............and the solution to that crisis was the motor vehicle
hmy:
The Great Horse Manure Crisis
...............and the solution to that crisis was the motor vehicle
hmy:otherclive said:
You forgot to mention all that extra pollution that will be emitted when the new runway at Heathrow is built (not that I give a monkeys about that) and also Cow flatulence affecting the ozone layer,
I wasn't seeking to address the multitude of pollution sources within our modern world, just to respond to the OP question. I don't know whether or when diesel cars may come to an end but the trends now being pursued will certainly see a more mixed economy where petrol/ hydrogen, electricity all play a larger role. What this means for caravanning remains to be seen. But looking at what some of the German van companies are developing they are quite aware where things are heading.
otherclive said:
Hello Clive,
The speed of traffic in London and most cities and large towns, aerodynamics will barely make a difference, but on the open road then yes.
Drive trains will make a difference, and PHEV's could make a very significant difference even now,
Before the explosion of private transport, most people sought work they could reach using public transport. Now with so much personal transport peoples work options have blossomed, so its inevitable that for many now there is no way the PT routes will suit.
It would be almost impossible to rework timetables and routes so that all people had a realistic chance of replacing their car with PT.
It would be almost impossible to rework timetables and routes so that all people had a realistic chance of replacing their car with PT.
Prof,
Agree with you on powertrains and PHEV looks quite promising as shown by the Mitsubishi Outlander. It will be interesting to see how JLR deal with it when the "hybrid" F-Pace, Disco and Range Rovers start to appear. When not towing you would want max range on electric, but on some of today's cars that would then lead to a low battery capacity which wouldn't be recharged by the engine but when you next plug in. Caravaners would need some control system that allows the battery charge to be retained until needed and then a system that allows the prime mover or energy gathering system to top up the battery from braking, downhill, overrun etc. But this would probably have to be in built from new. So companies like JLR, Toyota and Mitsubishi may fit such a system from new but where the mainstream motor makers will go is anyone's guess. Caravanning isn't really a product driver. After all wasn't it some quite large BMWs (x5) that had to have costly towing mods if they hadn't been first fitted ex work?
Agree with you on powertrains and PHEV looks quite promising as shown by the Mitsubishi Outlander. It will be interesting to see how JLR deal with it when the "hybrid" F-Pace, Disco and Range Rovers start to appear. When not towing you would want max range on electric, but on some of today's cars that would then lead to a low battery capacity which wouldn't be recharged by the engine but when you next plug in. Caravaners would need some control system that allows the battery charge to be retained until needed and then a system that allows the prime mover or energy gathering system to top up the battery from braking, downhill, overrun etc. But this would probably have to be in built from new. So companies like JLR, Toyota and Mitsubishi may fit such a system from new but where the mainstream motor makers will go is anyone's guess. Caravanning isn't really a product driver. After all wasn't it some quite large BMWs (x5) that had to have costly towing mods if they hadn't been first fitted ex work?
Oh well these things take time to happen. Lets say 20 years, well I either won't still have a caravan or I'll be dead. Either way it won't make much difference. I'll just keep the old ute until she drops.
Facebook
Twitter