Leisure battery

[Dustydog]

Our 10year old Avon 110 amp battery has been declared "bad, needs replacing" by our dealer at this weeks annual service. This battery has been in two caravans. It still works the Powrtouch and moves the Wyoming very well. All the other 12 volt units work well. The voltmeter reads 12.5 volts.

Our dealer says that we should continue using the battery until it finally gives up.

Does it really matter we only get 12.5 volts rather than 13.5 ish?

 

[Sproket]

Have you checked it your self with a multimeter as the voltmeters are notorious for being wrong ?
You only get 13.5 ish when the charger is turned on

have you checked the battery with the charger turned on with a mutimeter ?.
If it's not broke why fix it ?

battery maintenance.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,

I tend to agree with Sproket, if its still does what you want then I don't see a problem.

Some products may not work due to low voltage but I am not aware of any caravan products that will be damaged by low voltage.

The battery charger may struggle with a seriously depleted battery but again its unlikely to be damaged by it.

The only down side is if the battery gives up part way through a holiday.

Again I agree with Sprocket about the accuracy of on board battery voltage indicators, A small and relatively cheap multimeter is likely to be more accurate.

 

[RayS]

You have done very well to have this many years from the battery. It all depends on how much you use your mover and how dependant you are on it. If it would be a major problem if it failed suddenly while you were away, then change before your next trip, but if it be only a minor inconvenience then stick with it. My age and HID's total around 150 so we are not able to shove 1500 kg of van on anything other than dead smooth level tarmac, we we change the battery at about 5 year intervals regardless.

 

[JTQ]

The battery charger may struggle with a seriously depleted battery but again its unlikely to be damaged by it.

If used for a caravanning trip it will force the on board charger into trying its best to get the batteries voltage up and hence put a sustained current load onto it. The sustained bit being the point of concern.
Yes it might well stand it but I would not be confident its components would be speced up to do so hour in hour out, an abnormal situation. If it was mine I would not be exposing my expensive on board charger to that potential abuse.

 

[emmerson]

I used to carry two 85ah batteries, but obviously, weight can be a problem if you do that. I now carry only one, but just in case of failure, I also carry a tiny little gell battery known in the trade as a 12x12. This apparently means 12v x 12ah. While this probably won't do much for a mover, it will give you emergency power till you can sort out the big battery.Not sure of the weight, but I would think about 2-3 kilos, and its only about six inches square so takes up very little space. Cost me about £60 for a pair for the mobility scooter.

 

[RogerL]

The dumb power supply fitted in most caravans, other than the very latest, simply doesn't look after batteries - if you have 230V supply available when you're not on site it's worth using a £13 Aldi/Lidl smart charger which will condition the battery much better.
It may be worth getting a battery specialist (not a caravan dealer !) to do a "drop test" on the battery - I have a 16-year old car battery used in the caravan (with a smart charger) that can still pass the drop test.
The voltmeter reading is only useful when the battery is fully charged, mine is 12.9v - unless it's being charged in some form you'll never get more than 13.1v.

The 13.5/13.8v relates to the charger, not the battery !

 

[waffler]

If the mover works then the battery is delivering a massive number of amps. The 12.5 volts means it is 75% charged but it may be better than that as if the battery is on load then the voltage is reduced due to internal resistance in the battery. My last battery lasted 8 years with stacks of moving. It was obviously useless because it wouldn't hold a charge. My advice like the others is leave it alone. I would however save my pennies for a replacement and know where to get a new one of it does give up.

 

[Robtel]

I. I would however save my pennies for a replacement and know where to get a new one of it does give up.

In a situation slightly similar to DD. Battery seems to be coping fine but it must be at least 7 years old and I've read/heard that 7 years is about the maximum life span of a leisure battery.So my questions are:
Where is the best place to get a replacement?
Are there any differences between brands of batteries, i.e is a numax better or worse than a lucas or is a 110ah battery the same immaterial of brand?

Recommendations for supply source and make of battery appreciated

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks everyone for all the advice.
I'm going to leave replacement as long as possible. The caravan is used throughout the year so the battery does get a regular charge.
On the basis it is 10 years old and served two heavy caravans then I'd have to go for another Avon 110amp.If a better make with better technology is available I may give that a go. The original came from Chipping Sodbury Caravans.
IMO the important factor is taking into consideration how the battery has been used throughout its lifetime.

 

[RogerL]

The "normal" life of a leisure battery is 500 discharges from fully charged to 50% charged - it's roughly linear so that's the same as 1000 discharges down to 75% - but it's not linear the other way so don't expect to get 250 discharges down to 0%.
Of course some individual batteries will do better than normal, others will do worse - some "leisure" batteries are just car batteries with a handle and higher price tag - some brands are better than others but it's difficult to tell which they are - you don't necessarily "get what you pay for".
The concept that a battery will only last a set number of years is nonsense - I and one or two others can get 15+ years out of car batteries used as leisure batteries in caravans when the use is almost exclusively on EHU and a smart charger is used, not the dumb onboard power supply fitted to most caravans - in these conditions my 72Ah Vauxhall battery runs my Powrtouch h/d mover without any issues - despite warning that a 85Ah leisure battery is inadequate for a mover.
If I did more caravanning off EHU I'd get a Numax CXV battery which are the properly sealed type, the biggest that'll fit the battery locker.

 

[SteveW77]

I have used the same standard 85amp car battery on my last 2 caravans it's 9 years old and It is heavily used as I have a long twisty route on to my storage site.I just keep an eye on the electrolyte level and top up as and when needed. My latest van has an intelligent charger.
Steve W

 

[Dustydog]

Roger / Steve

How can I tell what type of charger my Wyoming has?

It seems to have the job for the last 5years.

 

[RogerL]

Not totally sure but I think all the pre-Alutec Baileys used a dumb power supply - as indeed I think the early Alutecs did.
You can't go wrong with a £13 smart charger from Aldi/Lidl but not in stock all the time - we plug in the EHU at home so mine's on all the time - it's marginally inferior to the £52 CTEK but at a quarter of the price ......

 

[Mel]

For those of us who are trying to keep up...Whats the difference between a dumb charger and a smart charger? (The very fact that i have had to ask should tell you that I need the "dumb" answer)
mel

 

[RogerL]

A dumb power supply simply gives 13.8v continuously, this voltage is chosen because it won't cause a battery to produce excess gas - the downside of this arrangement is that the battery never gets fully charged, typical maximum 80% of nominal capacity, and the battery plates will gradually block-up with sulphate which gradually reduces the capacity down to zero.
A smart charger will monitor the battery and go through a number of phases - if the battery plates are sulphated the smart charger gives vigorous pulses of higher voltage which breaks down the sulphates - it'll then charge at higher voltage, 14.4v, until the battery is virtually charged - then it'll go into bulk storage mode at slightly lower voltage to ensure 100% charging - and then it goes into maintenance mode of 13.8v until the battery starts to discharge so it starts the whole process again.
I hope that helps.

 

[TD42]

the operation of a "standard " caravan charger has been very well explained,but I would like to add some further infomation. A fully charged battery in good condition should show 12.8 volts on a test meter (multi meter) ,but a battery just taken off charge,will show a higher voltage due to a phenomonem known as a float charge. A correct reading will not be obtained until this "float charge " has disipated, normaly about 6-12 hours after its removed from the charger.
It would be good practise to use a smart charger on the battery after each excursion to bring it up to full charge & help keep sulphation to the minimum

 

[Mel]

Thank you both, very clear explanation.
mel

 

[Dustydog]

Well I must be really thick!
The 10 year old Avon still pumps out enough umph to move the Wyomings Powrtouch even though my dealer says it's bad!

I'm going to keep it going as long as possible even though it's spent it's whole life being charged by two dumb chargers.

 

[Sproket]

Well I must be really thick!
The 10 year old Avon still pumps out enough umph to move the Wyomings Powrtouch even though my dealer says it's bad!

I'm going to keep it going as long as possible even though it's spent it's whole life being charged by two dumb chargers.

As you use your van quite a lot, it has got a full charge from the tug to help keep it in tip top condition when being towed, rather than only getting charged when on hook up.
If you were to only use it half a dozen times a year with out being charged when being towed maybe it would have been changed by now ?

 

[Dustydog]

Well I must be really thick!
The 10 year old Avon still pumps out enough umph to move the Wyomings Powrtouch even though my dealer says it's bad!

I'm going to keep it going as long as possible even though it's spent it's whole life being charged by two dumb chargers.

As you use your van quite a lot, it has got a full charge from the tug to help keep it in tip top condition when being towed, rather than only getting charged when on hook up.
If you were to only use it half a dozen times a year with out being charged when being towed maybe it would have been changed by now ?

Now that's an I treating point.

My Sorie is on 111k miles, 7 years old and on the original battery.

So Sir Sproket, following your logic would it be fair to say usage is as importamn as etc?

 

[Sproket]

I would think so.
A good quality leisure battery might cost more, but looked after correctly will last for years, It's all to do with the amount of lead inside them

, next time you take the battery out weigh it.
Not a lot of manufactures display the weight of the batteries

just the price & warranty

& that can be either two or three years.
Not everybody wants a heavy battery due to the payload that they have.
The one in the link below weighs in at 30kg for an 80amp battery

SL80" Sonnenschein Gel Leisure Battery

 

[RogerL]

A car used most days on journeys long enough to warm up will look after the battery, as well as the engine - it's infrequent use and/or short journeys that'll shorten the lifetimes of both rather than years.
A word of caution on charging during towing - of course it's good for the caravan battery but the length of wiring from front of car to the back, the connectors and the cabling in the caravan to/from the battery, all conspire to give "voltage drop" so the 14.4v at the alternator may well be a lot less at the caravan battery - if it's under 12.7v it'll never fully charge the caravan battery.
That's why 27/30 amp cable should be used for that and the fridge supply/earth despite the fact that neither draw more than about 10 amps - the thinner the cable the more the voltage drop. If you want to be real anorak, use 4awg in the car, like the boy-racers use for their 2000w high power systems.

 

[Dustydog]

I spoke too soon. The inevitable has happened. The Avon is dead as a do do and it wont come to life. My fault. Didn't switch off the 12 v master switch and fridge light stayed on as door was open!!
Never mind I've now purchased a Numax 120AH, ready to fit once the flood waters subside. Yes our storage is 3" under water

I hope the Numax performs as well as the 9 year old Avon did.

 

[TD42]

I spoke too soon. The inevitable has happened. The Avon is dead as a do do and it wont come to life. My fault. Didn't switch off the 12 v master switch and fridge light stayed on as door was open!!
Never mind I've now purchased a Numax 120AH, ready to fit once the flood waters subside. Yes our storage is 3" under water

I hope the Numax performs as well as the 9 year old Avon did.

Dusty some chargers will not start to charge if they cannot detect a voltage higher than 7v in the battery. A way to get over this is to connect jump leads from your car to the "dead" battery this has the effect of equalising the voltage in each battery & the charger then recognises the dead battery & begins to charge it