Lithium batterys and are they safe

[Plug]

I was watching a artical this morning on the tv about e bikes and the lithium batterys fitted to them and the risk of them catching fire there was a expert on that they interviewed and they were saying never leave the battery pluged into the mains for chargeing as there is an high risk of them catching fire and deff not overnight so with so many caravaners moveing to these batters for there power are they as safe as we thought as they are pluged in EHU most of the time and chargeing he was saying there is a lot of chemical power in a small area of the battery

 

[RogerL]

I was watching a artical this morning on the tv about e bikes and the lithium batterys fitted to them and the risk of them catching fire there was a expert on that they interviewed and they were saying never leave the battery pluged into the mains for chargeing as there is an high risk of them catching fire and deff not overnight so with so many caravaners moveing to these batters for there power are they as safe as we thought as they are pluged in EHU most of the time and chargeing he was saying there is a lot of chemical power in a small area of the battery

One of the main issues is the poor standard of many of the chargers associated with the lithium batteries fitted to bikes - we would hope that chargers used in caravans would be higher standard but the caravan industry doesn't have a good record for that.

 

[mjh73]

Cheap imported goods that do not meet British Safety standards.....

 

[Sam Vimes]

I have first hand experience of a lithium battery catching fire.

I used to fly RC Helicopters, which used some heavy duty lithium batteries. I bought a new intelligent charger and one day one of the batteries started to vent and was just about to burst into flames.

Investigation of the charger revealed serious problems with over charging and it turned out to be fake model which I reported and got my money back.

I bought another unit of a different type which was ok but I started to charge these batteries in a fire safe bag.

I would never leave any type of battery on charge unattended if I had a choice.

Lithium batteries are widely in use in various equipment and these may require charging in situ. Consequently there are numerous reports of fires from these sources although given the number in use the risk is probably low if designed in correctly.

Lithium cells can contain a lot of energy and if damaged can cause serious problems.

 

[Raywood]

I watched he item and what was clear was the one they looked at had a replacement battery pack which looked to be the suspect. They did warn about the possibility of these being counterfeit cheap and potentially dangerous coming from on line sources and reading between the lines I suspect that was the problem.
There was no warning regarding car batteries and from a safety point of view they did point out these are not normally in the house so a fire is less dangerous although the point was made that they are not coming from these dubious on line suppliers.
The answer is probably the batteries are safe provided these and the charger are the real thing and not cheap rubbish.
The pictures were frightening though.

 

[otherclive]

There have been a number of fires in the SW caused by cycle, scooter batteries igniting. Unfortunately several of those affected lived in apartments and had no option but to charge in the house.
We never leave anything charging overnight or whilst out of the house and all our chargers are either Apple for phons/Ipads, or other reputable makes for power packs, cameras, etc. But we don’t have anything as powerful as a bike or scooter battery, which if they let go is serious from the outset.

When my son was commuting to the US on a regular basis he refused to book on the early Dreamliners given the spate of lithium battery fires.

 

[Dustydog]

My EV bike, mower and Makita drill all have purpose made chargers which are fan cooled and switch off once the battery is fully charged. They don’t take long and certainly are not left on all night. The actual batteries have never shown signs of heating up. I wonder if the real cause of the fires is the way the batteries h ave been wired internally ?

 

[Beachball]

My 20v Worx drill came with two Lithium batteries and charging normally take 3- 8 hours the light will stay green without flashing which means it is full and charging is completed. Battery temperature protection feature when the charger detects a battery pack that is to hot or cold (the light will be red and flash) it automatically activates the protection circuit and suspends charging .

 

[ProfJohnL]

As with most technologies, batteries and chargers need to properly matched to themselves and to the usage/storage they will see. This often entails them having specialised protection to meet the use case, and when its done properly it tends to mean the costs are high.

This is a prime case where the unscrupulous will pounce, by producing lookalike products but made cheaper by either using substandard material or omitting some of the original products functions or safety. yet charging the public almost the same so they make a killing....

 

[littlebasher]

I thought Lithium leisure batteries were Lithium Phosphate LiFePO4 which are safer and less prone to overheating / catching fire

 

[Dustydog]

Have you seen the price? £450 and beyond £2k! The three I have are made up of numerous small individual cells. No idea about leisure ones🤔

 

[ProfJohnL]

I thought Lithium leisure batteries were Lithium Phosphate LiFePO4 which are safer and less prone to overheating / catching fire

To be honest I haven't looked up about the particular chemicals used in leisure batteries, but I am know there is a lot of sensitivity about these batteries and so almost any untoward incident is likely to attract more attention than it really deserves, rather like when a caravan is involved in an incident on a major road, the media always draw attention to the fact a caravan is involved, but they barely bat an eyelid if it's just cars or lorries involved.

The fact is the incidence of battery fires (like caravan incidents) is still very low, and I'm not trying to suggest we should totally ignore it, but equally it shouldn't cause us to get rid of everything using these chemicals.

As you say there are battery chemistries that are safer, but other characteristics may prevent them from being appropriate for all applications, But as I have been at pains to point out there is more research and development going into batteries now than ever previously, and there are some encouraging results being reported and some new battery types are just entering major production phases even now. offering better power to weight and size, and much improved resistance to fire or excess heat damage.

 

[KiwiVanner]

Caravan leisure batteries are LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate). The fire issues involve Lithium Ion batteries, which are totally different. Have a read: https://www.relionbattery.com/knowledge/how-are-lifepo4-batteries-safer-than-other-lithium-batteries

 

[Guzzilazz]

All lithium batteries have a fire risk (more than lead acid) because lithium metal is a far more reactive metal than lead - remember school chemistry and potassium being removed from it's oil based stage.

There are as has been said three chemistries for Lithium batteries. In order of development they are Lithium Ion (Lion), Lithium Polymer (LiPo) and Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFe). Lion and LiPo can release huge amounts of current over very short time scales, and when charged in the Radio Control model scenario are recommended to be charged in "charging bags" which are basically fire safe. LiFe do not need the same care.

As a side line, Lithium water mixed with water is basically a big fire!

 

[SteveW]

A decently made LiFePO should have inside it a management board which prevents both overdischarge and overcharging, the issues that tend to cause problems. I am thinking the BMS in cheap scooter batteries is either absent or not up to the job, survival of the battery depends on that PCB at times. Even though the battery is in theory protected personally I am not inclined to sleep over one, as we do, if being charged by a typical caravan unit. There are two lines of defence here, regulation of the charger and the BMS. Our lithium installation uses a Victron charger, something decent and branded is worth paying for IMO,

Steve