Lithium -Ion Supply

Oct 8, 2006
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If there is a Lithium shortage upcoming surely the answer, given that we can use an ICE until 2030 (or is it 2035?), is to make self-charging hybrids until then by which time hydrogen-based fuel cells will have been advanced far enough to take over?
 
Nov 11, 2009
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If there is a Lithium shortage upcoming surely the answer, given that we can use an ICE until 2030 (or is it 2035?), is to make self-charging hybrids until then by which time hydrogen-based fuel cells will have been advanced far enough to take over?
There’s no end date for ICE usage only that in Europe the sale of hybrids ceases in 2035. I’m sure that between now and then there will be interesting developments and the wider use of fuel cells might be one of the options, but refuelling infrastructure would need to be rolled out so that range anxiety isn’t an issue.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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Self charging hybrids and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles all use batteries.
 
Nov 6, 2005
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If there is a Lithium shortage upcoming surely the answer, given that we can use an ICE until 2030 (or is it 2035?), is to make self-charging hybrids until then by which time hydrogen-based fuel cells will have been advanced far enough to take over?
If there's a Lithium shortage, it'll restrict the rate of all types of EV production unless and until a Lithium-free battery is put into production - while politicians won't want to do an about-face, they can simply defer the 2030/2035 dates for ending the sale of IC/hybrid cars if insufficient EVs can be built to satisfy demand.
 
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JTQ

May 7, 2005
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Self charging hybrids and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles all use batteries.
Though as a "buffer" and not as with a pure EV, to carry the total propulsion etc energy needed.
Thus, that will rather mitigate the amount of whatever material is required to create the batteries of the future.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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Though as a "buffer" and not as with a pure EV, to carry the total propulsion etc energy needed.
Thus, that will rather mitigate the amount of whatever material is required to create the batteries of the future.
Sure. Hybrid use batteries around 1KWh, plug-in hybrid 8 to 30 kWh, hydrogen fuel cell around 20-30kWh, Full BEV 20 to 80kWh (with a few around 100kWh).
But the aim of electric cars is to stop burning fossil fuel, not cut down a bit. Fuel cells have their own issues with raw and exotic materials. And their energy need is much much higher than battery vehicles.
 
Nov 6, 2005
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But the aim of electric cars is to stop burning fossil fuel, not cut down a bit. Fuel cells have their own issues with raw and exotic materials. And their energy need is much much higher than battery vehicles.
Is that the aim of EVs? A massive reduction in burning fossil fuel would have similar effect as eliminating it completely - so there's room for fossil fueled vehicles for specific purposes.

Other fossil-fuel uses, such as domestic heating/cooking, haven't really been tackled yet - and have the similar issues of cost/impracticality to EVs - so the idea of absolute zero fossil fuel use is just a pipe dream.
 
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Nov 11, 2009
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Is that the aim of EVs? A massive reduction in burning fossil fuel would have similar effect as eliminating it completely - so there's room for fossil fueled vehicles for specific purposes.

Other fossil-fuel uses, such as domestic heating/cooking, haven't really been tackled yet - and have the similar issues of cost/impracticality to EVs - so the idea of absolute zero fossil fuel use is just a pipe dream.
In our first house we had all electric heating installed. It was a delight individual thermostats in each room and and two different programmable heating zones. No servicing required, no leaks and almost instant response. The downside was in the mid 70s it wasn’t cheap to run. Now turn the clock on 50 years and in our recent kitchen modernisation we ditched a range with gas hobs and three electric ovens for an all gas cooker. More environmentally friendly and on the saving in energy costs it will pay for itself before its five year warranty expires. I would love to move to all electric but at present costs mitigate against it. However in the future if sufficient renewable energy (or nuclear) is produced then the transition to domestic electric is feasible.
 
Sep 26, 2018
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Lithium Ion is only one of several lithium based battery tech, and in the smaller uses Lion has been superseded by Lithium Polymer (LiPo), and Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFe/LifePO4). Although lithium is (obviously) a key ingredient, other components are also in short supply - such as Cobalt. There was a tin mine being explored for cobalt production at Hemerdon on the outskirts of Plymouth... it went bust.

The worst thing about cobalt is that most of it comes from poor African countries, where mining methods are terrible...
 
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Sep 26, 2018
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The U.K. needs to be self supporting post 2030. Our ability to mine our own Lithium is well documented here
https://www2.bgs.ac.uk/mineralsuk/download/cmp/lithium.pdf
Maybe the end of St Austell and area holidays🤪
Really interesting paper. I am a Cornishman born & bred... In the day, when I was a youngster St Austell and area was awful. The Mining methods for china clay were extraordinarily invasive and the area was covered in white spoil heaps and huge pits. The amazing thing is that the development of the process is now such that more clay than ever is being produced, albeit with a vastly reduced workforce (I have seen figures but can't now find them).

Let's hope that modern mining techniques would enable the same vastly reduced impact should lithium start to be mined downalong. At least it would provide some industry that would give employment other than tourism.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Really interesting paper. I am a Cornishman born & bred... In the day, when I was a youngster St Austell and area was awful. The Mining methods for china clay were extraordinarily invasive and the area was covered in white spoil heaps and huge pits. The amazing thing is that the development of the process is now such that more clay than ever is being produced, albeit with a vastly reduced workforce (I have seen figures but can't now find them).

Let's hope that modern mining techniques would enable the same vastly reduced impact should lithium start to be mined downalong. At least it would provide some industry that would give employment other than tourism.
I also remember the fine white dust that would sometimes settle around the mines. There was a China clay mine at Lee Moor Cornwood just outside of Plymouth but not as extensive as the Cornish ones. You dreaded meeting one of the trucks as when we lived in the area the roads hadn’t been given much attention to the needs of larger vehicles.
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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Really interesting paper. I am a Cornishman born & bred... In the day, when I was a youngster St Austell and area was awful. The Mining methods for china clay were extraordinarily invasive and the area was covered in white spoil heaps and huge pits. The amazing thing is that the development of the process is now such that more clay than ever is being produced, albeit with a vastly reduced workforce (I have seen figures but can't now find them).

Let's hope that modern mining techniques would enable the same vastly reduced impact should lithium start to be mined downalong. At least it would provide some industry that would give employment other than tourism.
Why would they want more employment when plenty job opportunities for parking meter wardens in Cornwall? :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Really interesting paper. I am a Cornishman born & bred... In the day, when I was a youngster St Austell and area was awful. The Mining methods for china clay were extraordinarily invasive and the area was covered in white spoil heaps and huge pits. The amazing thing is that the development of the process is now such that more clay than ever is being produced, albeit with a vastly reduced workforce (I have seen figures but can't now find them).

Let's hope that modern mining techniques would enable the same vastly reduced impact should lithium start to be mined downalong. At least it would provide some industry that would give employment other than tourism.
Back in the 80s I did business with The Goonvean and Rostowrack China Clay Company. The white China clay dust and mounds are legendary. I believe a lot of the disused tin mines contain rare elements .But then the anti mining brigade will stop any works😉
 

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