Losing weight!

[Buckman]

B+E license and towing vehicle can tow up to 3500kg. Vehicle can take tow ball load up to 175kg. Caravan is twin axle and has MTPLM 2000kg with maximum payload 250.4kg. On floor is 2 x aquarolls as wastemaster included in MIRO plus two fold up boxes which together teh boxes and contents weigh bless than 10kg. Except for pegs no awnings etc in the caravan. However there is a possibility that the caravan may go 20kg over the MTPLM if we upgrade the mattress to a pocket sprung as my back is killing me, but we would be within the load capability of the tyres if that counts for anything.

At a struggle I can find about 13kg to remove from caravan still leaving me approximately 7kg over the MTPLM. Problem is to get to my figure of the total current weight I had to weigh everything in the caravan and then add it to the MIRO assuming that the MIRO is correct however possibility that it could be either under or over. The caravan was one of the first off the line. Very unsure as will really struggle to remove anything else out of the caravan and do not want to remove the spare wheel.

When towing would some of the caravan load be transferred to the towball so in essence the caravan may be within its MTPLM as the weight on the axles is now reduced as we are talking about less than 10kg over MTPLM. If stopped by the DVSA they normally weigh the trailer while it is connected up to the towing vehicle so a possibility that caravan maybe within the MTPLM, but I don't want to take the chance?

A bit pointless taking the caravan to a weigh bridge where the tolerance is up to 20kg. Guess I will really have to scratch around. Why do they have such small payloads on twin axle caravans?

 

[Thingy]

Have you subtracted the weight of the original mattress. What about a memory foam topper that would roll up and go in the car to travel?

 

[Buckman]

Have you subtracted the weight of the original mattress. What about a memory foam topper that would roll up and go in the car to travel?

I did forget originally and also got my sums wrong and thought I was going to be a lot more over weight. Tried the memory foam but that takes nearly 9kg off your payload anyway. Plus a memory foam does not hide the fact that at every opportunity the mattress underneath is trying its best to roll you off onto the floor as no support on sides. At 92kg I am not seriously over weight as only 12kg over normal weight!

 

[Darren.H]

Same boat.
I removed the carpets, spare wheel and carrier. I did also when due replace the battery with a smaller one as powrtouch say 75amps is fine

The question about subtracting nose weight only applies to the cars towable mass as the nose weight is being carried, mtplm remains the same as the weight is always born by the caravan regardless its just how its transfered to the ground

 

[Darren.H]

ps, do you empty the flush fluid from the bog?
I've only seen me do that!

 

[Buckman]

Same boat.
I removed the carpets, spare wheel and carrier. I did also when due replace the battery with a smaller one as powrtouch say 75amps is fine

The question about subtracting nose weight only applies to the cars towable mass as the nose weight is being carried, mtplm remains the same as the weight is always born by the caravan regardless its just how its transfered to the ground

We need the 100amp battery and cannot downgrade it due to E&P system.

ps, do you empty the flush fluid from the bog?
I've only seen me do that!

We do not have a flush tank as flush come from onboard tank. However as gas empties from 7.5kg bottle it will slightly affect the weight, but obviously not worth taking into consideration?

 

[Darren.H]

We need the 100amp battery and cannot downgrade it due to E&P system.



We do not have a flush tank as flush come from onboard tank. However as gas empties from 7.5kg bottle it will slightly affect the weight, but obviously not worth taking into consideration?

MIRO, according to Google includes 90% of onboard water and a full flush tank, so if they are empty when towing you will gain a few more kg.

 

[JTQ]

When towing would some of the caravan load be transferred to the towball so in essence the caravan may be within its MTPLM as the weight on the axles is now reduced as we are talking about less than 10kg over MTPLM. If stopped by the DVSA they normally weigh the trailer while it is connected up to the towing vehicle so a possibility that caravan maybe within the MTPLM, but I don't want to take the chance?

Being pedantic MTPLMass, is "mass" not weight; Hitched or not the caravan's "mass" will not change, but the "weight" carried by the axles will.

I suspect it will only be axle weights, not masses that anybody is going to worry about, and as your setup carries a high noseweight the van's axle weight will be lower in real life than the weight its mass would cause.
What are the plated axle weights of the van, these sometimes can be lower than the MTPLM would develop?
Also, are you comfortable with the tow car's rear axle rating, including the contribution from the nosewieght? Note more than the noseweight value is reflected onto the rear axle, as it also relieves some from the front axle. Levers.

IMO, any inspector would have to be unbelievably confident in his kit, and the follow on support of his peers, to worry enough about 20 kgs to do more than "comment"

 

[Kevin M]

Can’t help the on the weight saving sorry. (And going totally off topic)
One recent revelation after years of bad backs, caravan back, hip pain etc is using a knee / leg pillow (I’m aside sleeper). I can honestly say that it’s transformed my sleep esp so in the caravan,

Kev

 

[DaveA1]

Could you not put some of the load in your motor, I carry all my bulky things in the motor.
You mention your motors nose weight is 174kg, What is the caravan nose weight?

You go for the lower weight.

 

[Thingy]

175kg on the ball seems very high. What are you towing with. My Shogun is only 140kg.

 

[DaveA1]

175kg on the ball seems very high. What are you towing with. My Shogun is only 140kg.

140kg or 174kg is irrelevant if the caravan has a nose weight of 100kg

 

[Thingy]

Totally agree, just wondered what vehicle had those figures.

 

[ProfJohnL]

B+E license and towing vehicle can tow up to 3500kg. Vehicle can take tow ball load up to 175kg. Caravan is twin axle and has MTPLM 2000kg with maximum payload 250.4kg. On floor is 2 x aquarolls as wastemaster included in MIRO plus two fold up boxes which together teh boxes and contents weigh bless than 10kg. Except for pegs no awnings etc in the caravan. However there is a possibility that the caravan may go 20kg over the MTPLM if we upgrade the mattress to a pocket sprung as my back is killing me, but we would be within the load capability of the tyres if that counts for anything.

At a struggle I can find about 13kg to remove from caravan still leaving me approximately 7kg over the MTPLM. Problem is to get to my figure of the total current weight I had to weigh everything in the caravan and then add it to the MIRO assuming that the MIRO is correct however possibility that it could be either under or over. The caravan was one of the first off the line. Very unsure as will really struggle to remove anything else out of the caravan and do not want to remove the spare wheel.

When towing would some of the caravan load be transferred to the towball so in essence the caravan may be within its MTPLM as the weight on the axles is now reduced as we are talking about less than 10kg over MTPLM. If stopped by the DVSA they normally weigh the trailer while it is connected up to the towing vehicle so a possibility that caravan maybe within the MTPLM, but I don't want to take the chance?

A bit pointless taking the caravan to a weigh bridge where the tolerance is up to 20kg. Guess I will really have to scratch around. Why do they have such small payloads on twin axle caravans?

JTQ's answer is spot on.

But don't forget the authorities have the right to check for compliance with any of the statutory load limits. e.g GVW, GTW, all Axle loads.

The authorities will first measure the coupled axle loads,
No axle must overloaded.
All axles added together must be less than the GTW limit for the tow vehicle.
Tow vehicles axle loads added together must not exceed the GVW for the tow vehicle

If the authorities are concerned the trailer is overload, they can uncouple and weigh the whole trailer - which should be no greater than its MTPLM or Plated weight
If they the re-weight the solo tow vehicle, they can establish the nose load on the coupling.

The correct way to use weighbridge measurements is to ensure your loading falls below the weighbridges margins of error, then you can be certain you are within the letter of the law.

 

[Lutz]

Transferring the noseweight to the towball doesn't change the overall weight of the caravan, which must still not exceed its MTPLM.

 

[Buckman]

Totally agree, just wondered what vehicle had those figures.

It is the Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD 3.0L and I just checked the owner's manual again in case I was wrong, but it is 175kg. The maximum nose weight of the caravan is 150kg however we keep it at about 140kg.

JTQ's answer is spot on.

But don't forget the authorities have the right to check for compliance with any of the statutory load limits. e.g GVW, GTW, all Axle loads.

The authorities will first measure the coupled axle loads,
No axle must overloaded.
All axles added together must be less than the GTW limit for the tow vehicle.
Tow vehicles axle loads added together must not exceed the GVW for the tow vehicle

If the authorities are concerned the trailer is overload, they can uncouple and weigh the whole trailer - which should be no greater than its MTPLM or Plated weight
If they the re-weight the solo tow vehicle, they can establish the nose load on the coupling.

The correct way to use weighbridge measurements is to ensure your loading falls below the weighbridges margins of error, then you can be certain you are within the letter of the law.

The big issue here is without knowing the actual true MIRO I am guessing that I may be over the MTPLM. The true MIRO could have been obtained on delivery to the dealer and before anything had been added.

I am using the MIRO figure given by the manufacturer and that can vary. If we are over the MTPLM the absolute maximum will be about 20kg according to my calculations however we are still over. The other thing is that although the MTPLM is 2000kg the axle rating may be higher, but not sure where to find that info?

Just to add, my main moan was why large twin axles have such small payloads as when you add on extras offered by the manufacturer like movers etc. a lot of payload disappears. If it were possible we would have paid the extra to have a higher rated axle fitted.

 

[Raywood]

Possibly if you are worried about the total weight the best plan is to ask the caravan maker if you can upgrade this as most can be. Without knowing what you have I cannot say any more though.
A word of caution on the tow ball weight as you need to make sure of the actual makers limit for this and the hitch. You might easily find they are far less, possibly 100 kg.
It might be possible to change the axles, but I think the cost would be prohibitive.

 

[Buckman]

Possibly if you are worried about the total weight the best plan is to ask the caravan maker if you can upgrade this as most can be. Without knowing what you have I cannot say any more though.
A word of caution on the tow ball weight as you need to make sure of the actual makers limit for this and the hitch. You might easily find they are far less, possibly 100 kg.
It might be possible to change the axles, but I think the cost would be prohibitive.

The caravan has already been upgraded and the maximum weight on towball vertical load can be 175kg. However I think our Tow trust towbar is actually rated at 180kg vertical load?

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is accepted by the authorities that a a trailer is often manufactured from parts from many separate t manufacturers, and it clearly is reliant on the final manufacture to set the safe load limits for the whole trailer, even though some subassemblies could be rated to take higher loads.

For that reason the maximum permitted loads will be on the trailers weight plate that has (had) to conform and be displayed in accordance with the construction and Use Regulations.

 

[Buckman]

It is accepted by the authorities that a a trailer is often manufactured from parts from many separate t manufacturers, and it clearly is reliant on the final manufacture to set the safe load limits for the whole trailer, even though some subassemblies could be rated to take higher loads.

For that reason the maximum permitted loads will be on the trailers weight plate that has (had) to conform and be displayed in accordance with the construction and Use Regulations.

The difference between a trailer and a caravan is that weight sticker on the side of a caravan is not mandatory however the plate fixed to the chassis is mandatory. There may be a difference in figures between the two.

 

[JTQ]

The difference between a trailer and a caravan is that weight sticker on the side of a caravan is not mandatory however the plate fixed to the chassis is mandatory. There may be a difference in figures between the two.

Can you detail, or photograph what these plates show, the type approval plate and the NCC's plate?

I have not purchased a trailer since 2008 so have not ready access to see the newer [since2012??] type approval plate displays,but thought, there were listings of the maximum allowed support point loadings. These listed simply as increasing numbers from the front.

Something like 0 zero, indicating the noseweight [or called "S" value], 1 the first axle, 2 the second axle, 3 the combined limit all axles can take at one time, [a figure not greater than the sum of 0,1,2 and very likely somewhat lower].

Then on the coupling head there ought to be "S" and "D" values, the S being max noseweight the couple can take [this ought be at least up to the [ type approval] VIN "0" value of the chassis,. The "D" is the mass the coupling can haul, which of course has to be up to the value on the VIN plate for the sum of the axles.
Further, to that the axles ought to be individually plated at their maximum ratings, and that should be enough to cover what the chassis maker has credited on his VIN plate.
These, axle plates understandably will not be easily accessed , but I thought the "Type approval plate VIN", has to be, and the NCC plate are.

 

[Buckman]

Can you detail, or photograph what these plates show, the type approval plate and the NCC's plate?

I have not purchased a trailer since 2008 so have not ready access to see the newer [since2012??] type approval plate displays,but thought, there were listings of the maximum allowed support point loadings. These listed simply as increasing numbers from the front.

Something like 0 zero, indicating the noseweight [or called "S" value], 1 the first axle, 2 the second axle, 3 the combined limit all axles can take at one time, [a figure not greater than the sum of 0,1,2 and very likely somewhat lower].

Then on the coupling head there ought to be "S" and "D" values, the S being max noseweight the couple can take [this ought be at least up to the [ type approval] VIN "0" value of the chassis,. The "D" is the mass the coupling can haul, which of course has to be up to the value on the VIN plate for the sum of the axles.
Further, to that the axles ought to be individually plated at their maximum ratings, and that should be enough to cover what the chassis maker has credited on his VIN plate.
These, axle plates understandably will not be easily accessed , but I thought the "Type approval plate VIN", has to be, and the NCC plate are.

A mandatory plate should be fixed to the chassis as per legislation which is why the removable sticker on the caravan body probably cannot be enforced even if it contains all the correct information. My thoughts are whether there is a difference for weights on the sticker and the plate on the chassis.

 

[JTQ]

A mandatory plate should be fixed to the chassis as per legislation which is why the removable sticker on the caravan body probably cannot be enforced even if it contains all the correct information. My thoughts are whether there is a difference for weights on the sticker and the plate on the chassis.

But that can be compared, by looking at both and checking?

I can't see why the NCC plate, should they want it, give values well within the type approval plated values.

 

[Lutz]

A mandatory plate should be fixed to the chassis as per legislation which is why the removable sticker on the caravan body probably cannot be enforced even if it contains all the correct information. My thoughts are whether there is a difference for weights on the sticker and the plate on the chassis.

The statutory plate is seldom on the chassis (although some caravan manufacturers do put it there). It is usually to be found in the front locker. It can easily be identified because it shows the type approval number (at least on post-2014 caravans), which the NCC label by the door doesn't (unless it's combined with the statutory plate, which I think is the case on current Elddis caravans)

Can you detail, or photograph what these plates show, the type approval plate and the NCC's plate?

The statutory plate displays the MTPLM, the maximum axle load and the maximum allowable noseweight. The NCC label doesn't show axle loads or the noseweight limit.

 

[Buckman]

The statutory plate is seldom on the chassis (although some caravan manufacturers do put it there). It is usually to be found in the front locker. It can easily be identified because it shows the type approval number (at least on post-2014 caravans), which the NCC label by the door doesn't (unless it's combined with the statutory plate, which I think is the case on current Elddis caravans)
The statutory plate displays the MTPLM, the maximum axle load and the maximum allowable noseweight. The NCC label doesn't show axle loads or the noseweight limit.

Maybe in Germany it is inside the front locker, but it is not there on our 2018 UK built caravan. See https://assets.publishing.service.g...hicle-approval-inspection-manual-trailers.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.g...hicle-approval-inspection-manual-trailers.pdf