Hi all. Just taken the motor in for LPG conversion and was wondering if anybody has had it done and what is it like towing?. My other car was a deisel and did 23 MPG @ £ 1.41 a litre , now on petrol @ £1.36 but getting 19MPG. LPG is 69P Ltr so should get the money back i 18 months , but will it tow ok. Any thoughts !!!!!.
LPG conversion
- Thread starter GrahamDerby
- Start date
hi Graham,
not sure if this is any help but one of our members has run a gas converted LD for a few years, trouble is I cannot remember who!!,
also gas FLT,s are basically converted petol engines, these usually run continuous for 8hrs on one filling of 13kg so the fuel consumption should be not too bad,
not sure if this is any help but one of our members has run a gas converted LD for a few years, trouble is I cannot remember who!!,
also gas FLT,s are basically converted petol engines, these usually run continuous for 8hrs on one filling of 13kg so the fuel consumption should be not too bad,
that will be emmerson... did once think that buying an lpg car and emmerson was of great help but it wasnt for me in the end
if you are already towing with the vehicle in petrol form and it seems ok then a conversion to Lpg isnt going to bring any major differences to how the car tows, so everything should be fine..Although i wonder what type of mileage you do annually to be able to reap the money back in 18 months assuming you are having a decent LPG conversion that runs into four figures plus.Graham Derby said:
Hi Jonnyg, i am paying £2100.00 for the conversion and do about 12000 miles per year, quite a bit of that is towing a Lunar Delta TI. I have roughly worked it out as 18/24 months should see it all paid for, i hope !!.
Hello Graham,
In the mid 1970's we ran a small fleet of of about 20 company vehicles 4 cars (two Cortinas A Volvo and Saab) and a couple of transit vans on LPG. In those days access to refilling points was very sketchy, but we had our own LPG tank and meter at ouir factory, and at the flick of a switch we could switch back to petrol. These days LPG is much more accessible but it does depend on where you are.
In terms of performance, all the drivers subjectively felt the LPG perfomance was down a little on petrol, but engine smoothness was better. Servicing reports indicated the engines were fairing better, less sump sludge and other wear indicators.
Generally the impression was positive, but the three down sides were the initial conversion costs, and the relatively small range the vehicles had on LPG because of the size tank and the loss of space to the LPG tank in the saloon cars.
Overall we concluded the whole life costs of LPG at thge time we marginal even with our own supply of Propane, and with a change to our transport policy chaning from whoely owned to leasing, we did not repeat the experiment. Do remeber this was in the 1970's and things have changed since.
We will be interested in you own experience. Do keep us informed.
In the mid 1970's we ran a small fleet of of about 20 company vehicles 4 cars (two Cortinas A Volvo and Saab) and a couple of transit vans on LPG. In those days access to refilling points was very sketchy, but we had our own LPG tank and meter at ouir factory, and at the flick of a switch we could switch back to petrol. These days LPG is much more accessible but it does depend on where you are.
In terms of performance, all the drivers subjectively felt the LPG perfomance was down a little on petrol, but engine smoothness was better. Servicing reports indicated the engines were fairing better, less sump sludge and other wear indicators.
Generally the impression was positive, but the three down sides were the initial conversion costs, and the relatively small range the vehicles had on LPG because of the size tank and the loss of space to the LPG tank in the saloon cars.
Overall we concluded the whole life costs of LPG at thge time we marginal even with our own supply of Propane, and with a change to our transport policy chaning from whoely owned to leasing, we did not repeat the experiment. Do remeber this was in the 1970's and things have changed since.
We will be interested in you own experience. Do keep us informed.
Picked up the car today LPG fitted. Very neat job, this was the 3rd Elgrand they had done so at least they were aware of any problems that may crop up. Its about 8 miles home and i must admit i could find no problem at all , very smooth and felt like a little bit more responsive on gas, but time will tell. I will keep you updated on the further results, cheers
Hi Graham, and welcome to the world of penny-pinchers! The boys are quite correct, I'm the world's greatest supporter of LPG.
I'm currently on my 3rd Range Rover on gas over a fifteen year period, so can claim a bit of experience.
Your conversion cost seems about right, but mine have all been around £1200/1500,as I only use a simple basic single point system, as the huge torque of the V8 doesn't need the complication of multi-point. A lot of the cost also depends on the type of tank used.
You will probably find the bar-room experts who will tell you that performance is compromised, LPG will eventually outstrip petrol price, it will blow up in your face as you fill it, it's a huge fire risk, etc,etc.You will also find that none of these experts have ever used LPG!
I found that pay-back was about 10 months on all of mine.Fuel consumption will vary. Mine does around 12mpg towing on gas, and around............12mpg towing on petrol! Solo running is slightly better on petrol, and you will not find any difference in performance. Try it yourself: drive at a steady speed on gas, then switch to petrol. I'll be very surprised if you can tell the difference.
With regard to availability of gas, well, as you may know, I spend a lot of time towing in this country and in Europe, and can safely say that I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to run on petrol.
LPG currently averages around 72p per litre ( i know of one BP station at Ross-on-Wye charging 85p, but we just boycott him).
This all sounds too glowing, doesn't it, but these are my honest experiences over three cars and fifteen years, around 45,000 miles.
The major difference you will find will be in your wallet. Vive le difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm currently on my 3rd Range Rover on gas over a fifteen year period, so can claim a bit of experience.
Your conversion cost seems about right, but mine have all been around £1200/1500,as I only use a simple basic single point system, as the huge torque of the V8 doesn't need the complication of multi-point. A lot of the cost also depends on the type of tank used.
You will probably find the bar-room experts who will tell you that performance is compromised, LPG will eventually outstrip petrol price, it will blow up in your face as you fill it, it's a huge fire risk, etc,etc.You will also find that none of these experts have ever used LPG!
I found that pay-back was about 10 months on all of mine.Fuel consumption will vary. Mine does around 12mpg towing on gas, and around............12mpg towing on petrol! Solo running is slightly better on petrol, and you will not find any difference in performance. Try it yourself: drive at a steady speed on gas, then switch to petrol. I'll be very surprised if you can tell the difference.
With regard to availability of gas, well, as you may know, I spend a lot of time towing in this country and in Europe, and can safely say that I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to run on petrol.
LPG currently averages around 72p per litre ( i know of one BP station at Ross-on-Wye charging 85p, but we just boycott him).
This all sounds too glowing, doesn't it, but these are my honest experiences over three cars and fifteen years, around 45,000 miles.
The major difference you will find will be in your wallet. Vive le difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To break even how have you worked aourt the figures? It seems that you may have to purchase about 2000 litres of gas before you get to the breakeven point assuming your saving is about £0.60p per litre. When I drove a car, Vauxhall with LPG conversion there was very little difference in performance however you did get less miles to the LPG litre, but not much.
hi, Surfer. that what I was thinking!! given the cost of conversion around £2000. and a saving of 60p a litre (assuming fuel prices remain constant ??) it would take 3500lts of fuel used to break even.Surfer said:
a vehicle that does roughly 20mpg surely the break even point would be 70.000 miles, given the average vehicle usage (12.000 miles per annum) it would take nearly 6 years to recover the initial cost of conversion.
I suspect this is the reason conversion of privately owned vehicles is not common,
it was one option I looked at after aquiring the m/home that did a castastropic 15mpg on petrol but with a annual mileage of around 5k even the cheapest conversion was a 10year payback. if constanly used on gas although this was not possible back in 1993.
The last two posts are basing the pay back solely on the cost-saving of fuel.
Whilst this is probably the biggest and certainly the most tangible factor, there can be additional savings made if LPG reduces engine wear thus reducing repair costs, reduction in other motoring related charges such as VED, and congestion charges.
These can all bring the break even point (BEP) closer, but despite these small changes, the BEP still looks quite long and for some may not be viable.
It seems to suggest that not a lot has changed since our 1970's experience. Its more likely to suit high mileage users.
Whilst this is probably the biggest and certainly the most tangible factor, there can be additional savings made if LPG reduces engine wear thus reducing repair costs, reduction in other motoring related charges such as VED, and congestion charges.
These can all bring the break even point (BEP) closer, but despite these small changes, the BEP still looks quite long and for some may not be viable.
It seems to suggest that not a lot has changed since our 1970's experience. Its more likely to suit high mileage users.
Regarding payback, the figures are simple
12000 miles @ 12mpg @ £1.38 per litre = £6210
12000 miles @ 12mpg @ £0.72 per litre = £3240
Saving £2970
Conversion cost £1500
There is a calculator on the UKLPG website which will give an estimated saving, too.
12000 miles @ 12mpg @ £1.38 per litre = £6210
12000 miles @ 12mpg @ £0.72 per litre = £3240
Saving £2970
Conversion cost £1500
There is a calculator on the UKLPG website which will give an estimated saving, too.
see those figures are what scared me emmerson give me a 20 plus mpg 4x4 diesel and its still cheaper tow on the continent and the difference is bigger still, but its each to their own and at least with your input we have been kept well informed but heck 12mpg that terrifies me..emmerson said:
Agree JonnyG 12mpg is frightening, but that's why I converted. Financially it works out at nearer 24mpg, which for the power and luxury that my old RR provides is a reasonable price to pay.
Also bear in mind that I've owned the car for 4 years, it cost me £2150, and if advert prices are to be believed ( and some local ones are) it is now worth around £4500 (it is a rather rare LSE version), then my caravanning works out quite reasonable. But as you say, to each his own.I'm not trying to persuade people to convert to LPG; I'm simply stating my case.
(and smiling smugly
)
Also bear in mind that I've owned the car for 4 years, it cost me £2150, and if advert prices are to be believed ( and some local ones are) it is now worth around £4500 (it is a rather rare LSE version), then my caravanning works out quite reasonable. But as you say, to each his own.I'm not trying to persuade people to convert to LPG; I'm simply stating my case.
(and smiling smugly
And jonnyG, I've just done some more sums, and yor 12000miles would cost you £500 more than mine, so there!!!
I'm not claiming the following is 100% accurate, but it does appear to concur with my own understanding of the LPG conversion issues.
You might like to read it:-
http://www.lpgconversionkitinstaller.co.uk/what-can-be-converted.php
You might like to read it:-
http://www.lpgconversionkitinstaller.co.uk/what-can-be-converted.php
Hi Emmerson, your working out is what i was working on before having in done. Up to now i can find no difference in performance but i have not had chance to tow yet and that will be interesting. The tank was fitted instead of the spare wheel, so a donut, and holds 48.8 ltr. When i picked it up it was full and cost me £29.23, ie 59ppl, from the fitters. So up to now i'm one happy bunny.
am getting old but adding LPG does bring up some emmission issues on a diesel surprisingly. back in the late 90s it was not uncommon for VW owners of tdi engines pre PD. to add LPG which actually gave a decent power gain 20 odd percent and of course a 10 percentish gain in MPG ....not sure which but it also pumped up the NOX if i recall correctly iif not it was one of the emmisions so not sure how one could apply it today with tighter emmission controls...
emmerson. hi my figures were based on my driving a mix of uk and europe although i admit the figures are close.....i believe one day i will try an LPG conversion be it petrol or as an add to diesel but there are also methanol based cars abroad cannot recall if they are better or worse mpg/power but they are not the same so theres some fuel for thought..
emmerson. hi my figures were based on my driving a mix of uk and europe although i admit the figures are close.....i believe one day i will try an LPG conversion be it petrol or as an add to diesel but there are also methanol based cars abroad cannot recall if they are better or worse mpg/power but they are not the same so theres some fuel for thought..
I agree Jonny, that not ALL modern engines are suitable for conversion, which is why it is essential to use a good, honest converter, who should tell you whether its right or wrong.The chap I use has been converting for over 30 years now, mainly on very expensive American RVs.
The system I've used on my RRs is a very simple one, which simply sucks gas into the inlet manifold in a lump, and lets the engine take what it wants. That basically is it. The engine will actually run without the ECU connected, with no noticeable effect.
Smaller more modern engines, however need multi-point systems, which as the article says have to "fool" the engine into thinking that LPG is petrol, and therefore need their own ECU, as well as the original one.
My Land Rover repairer had a LPG RR with a multi=point system which I have used both solo and as a towcar, and I found no difference in either performance or MPG from my own single point system, which has very little to go wrong. Just to demonstrate this, I've had this car four years. The LPG was fitted in 2005, and in all the bumf that came with the car, there is no record of any work ever being done on the LPG. Last week, I replaced the vapouriser, mixer and mixture valve at a total cost of £170. This on a system which has now done 103,000 miles.
I like LPG!
The system I've used on my RRs is a very simple one, which simply sucks gas into the inlet manifold in a lump, and lets the engine take what it wants. That basically is it. The engine will actually run without the ECU connected, with no noticeable effect.
Smaller more modern engines, however need multi-point systems, which as the article says have to "fool" the engine into thinking that LPG is petrol, and therefore need their own ECU, as well as the original one.
My Land Rover repairer had a LPG RR with a multi=point system which I have used both solo and as a towcar, and I found no difference in either performance or MPG from my own single point system, which has very little to go wrong. Just to demonstrate this, I've had this car four years. The LPG was fitted in 2005, and in all the bumf that came with the car, there is no record of any work ever being done on the LPG. Last week, I replaced the vapouriser, mixer and mixture valve at a total cost of £170. This on a system which has now done 103,000 miles.
I like LPG!
And long may you remain so!Graham Derby said:
Just try to wipe the smug grin off your face when you fill up.
When Vauxhall conducted tests and we had several different cars for the tests and if the car did 7 miles to the litre, it could not achieve this when using gas and the figure was lower. This meant you used slightly more gas than "liquid fuel" to travel the same distance. I have no idea why. I would not trust a calculator on a site selling the conversion. Either way your break even point is many miles or years away despite the advantages of using gas. Our 4 x 4 only does about 7000 miles per annum so probably cheaper to buy a good second hand car than to do the conversion.
ummm an LPG car could be upto 10% worse on mpg than if running on petrol,although LPG does have a higher calorific value than petrol its density per volumme is much worse than petrol so meaning yes it will be a tad worse on fuel but it is merely a tad so most people wont even notice it. and indeed they might even see an improvement if there engine has done a fare few miles as the lpg will clean up the engine and in doing so it will make it more efficient than it possibly was after many tens of thousands of miles running solely on petrol ....so the break even piont shouldnt be much more than say 10% longer than those calculators predict at worse and for some it could be pretty accurate in the first place..Surfer said:
Surfer, I just don't understand what you are saying! I have produced figures to prove my points.
How many LPG cars have you run or converted?
How many thousand miles have you driven on LPG?
Your views are precisely what I told Graham in my first post,ie, that he would get lots of bar -room experts who will tell him why he shouldn't have done it.
I'll throw out the same challenge that I normally do when faced with your arguments: come and see!
Arrange your own time and date to drive my car, and meet other LPG users, and also meet the best LPG converter in the UK.
After that, buy your own LPG car, then offer your fatuous criticisms.
In the meantime, Graham and I, and many thousands of others will continue to smile smugly as we save lots of money!
How many LPG cars have you run or converted?
How many thousand miles have you driven on LPG?
Your views are precisely what I told Graham in my first post,ie, that he would get lots of bar -room experts who will tell him why he shouldn't have done it.
I'll throw out the same challenge that I normally do when faced with your arguments: come and see!
Arrange your own time and date to drive my car, and meet other LPG users, and also meet the best LPG converter in the UK.
After that, buy your own LPG car, then offer your fatuous criticisms.
In the meantime, Graham and I, and many thousands of others will continue to smile smugly as we save lots of money!
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