mass in service

Mar 19, 2011
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We are in the process of buying the new C4. Fantastic we thought! Brochure states Mass in service 1501kg
Great, no problem, our Lunar Clubman is 1485kg
On going to pick up car. We read Handbook. Kerbweight 1395!!!!
We have refused to take car at the moment as it doesn't do what we asked for. It had a tow bar fitted and a spare wheel. The salesman took it to the weighbridge and even with the extras it still only weighs 1440kgs.
We thought that Mass in service and kerbweight were the same. Apparently not!
In April's edition you state mass in service is 1501kg. Correct! But that is not the kerbweight.
Where do we go from here?
Julia
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Neither the handbook nor a brochure can ever give definitive data relating to your car. Mass in Service, kerbweight, or whatever is always specific to each and every car so one cannot expect a brochure or a handbook to be anything more than a guideline. Only details in the V5c certificate can be relied upon and these quote Mass in Service, not kerbweight. Mass in Service includes 75kg for the driver which kerbweight does not do. Kerbweight is no longer a term that has any relevance in the vehicle industry, but it is still referred to by the general public and caravan clubs, etc.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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I had a look at my 2009 cars V5 the other day.
Couldn't find any reference to mass in service ?
Also looked in Nissan brochure, no mention of mass in service,
but it does quote kerb weight.
also says in accordance with EC directive,Kerb weight condition is with out driver and including coolant, oils, fuel, spare wheel.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Nissan need to get their brochure in order. The EU Directive makes absolutely no reference to kerbweight, only Mass in Running Order, and that includes 75kg for the driver and sundry items.
 
Mar 1, 2009
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Hi Julia
Sorry to hear of your problem, is there not any way the dealer can do you a deal on a heavier towcar?
I have a 2010 Jeep and on its brochure there is no mention of mass in service only kerbweight. Also kerbweight is the only term mentioned in the V5. Also the weight stated on the V5 and brochure is correct with the actual weight of the car only web sites doing outfit matches seem to be off by about 40kg.

Dougie.....
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Dougie 45 said:
Hi Julia
Sorry to hear of your problem, is there not any way the dealer can do you a deal on a heavier towcar?
I have a 2010 Jeep and on its brochure there is no mention of mass in service only kerbweight. Also kerbweight is the only term mentioned in the V5. Also the weight stated on the V5 and brochure is correct with the actual weight of the car only web sites doing outfit matches seem to be off by about 40kg.

Dougie.....
Under Section 4, Item G, current V5c certificates quote Mass in Service, not kerbweight. Because kerbweight was defined by convention only and foreign manufacturers had their own interpretation, the term has officially been dropped from all legal and vehicle industry documentation. It may still appear in brochures, etc. because it is a term that has been widely used over many years, but as it is not explicity defined anywhere to everybody's common understanding, it is of no use for the purpose of documentation any more.
You are very lucky if there is a variance of only 40kg between actual and published data. It is not uncommon for the difference to exceed 100kg.
 
Mar 19, 2011
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Thanks all for your replies. We have recieved our log book. Mass in service is 1501kgs.
April's Practical Caravan gives same + 75kgs for driver making 1576kgs
Traffic police go by Kerb weight when we contacted them. It all seems to be total confusion.
There needs to be liaison between all parties so we all sing from the same hymn sheet!
The dealer is trying to sort it out but of course it's the weekend.
Thanks again
Julia
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Traffic poilce cannot go by kerbweight, Julia, because,
a. Kerbweight is not documented anywhere so they have nothing to check against, and
b. The police should abide by the law and no law even mentions the word kerbweight. The law still talks about unladen weight, not kerbweight nor Mass in Service. Strictly speaking, unladen weight is something else yet again. According to the Directgov website, unladen weight includes an empty fuel tank and, of course, no driver. However, I know of no source of information where unladen weight, according to this definition, is readily to be found. In practice, the wording of the law has not yet been brought into line with current standards which rely on the documentary evidence of the V5c certifcate and this specifies Mass in Service. According to the DfT, Mass in Service and Mass in Running Order, which is the EU standard term, are one and the same thing.
The above being the case, Mass in Service already includes 75kg for the driver.
 
Aug 4, 2004
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What really matters is the weight thtat you can legally tow. Unfortunately you do not mention which model of C4 you have purchased and whether it is manaul or automatic, diesel or petrol so it is difficult to give honest advice. With the exception of the autos, it seems only the 95bhp C4 cannot legally tow the caravan. Also when towing, if you have more than 2 adults and other baggage in the car, you should then be within the 85% guideline and I stress it is only a guideline which is falling by the wayside now as it never had any parameters set.. If the Picasso range then only one of them is unable to tow the caravan.
The diesel autos don't make the grade and cannot tow anything heavier than about 1300kg and you need to select the manual mode and chaneg gear which defeats the object of buying an auto.
 
Apr 26, 2010
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I am no expert in towing weights or anything like all I can comment on was actual facts as they happened to me.

Whilst driving from Austria to Slovenia the customs officer in Slovenian checked the weight of the caravan on the side by the door, he then requested I open the drivers door on the car and checked the plate on the door frame which states maximum towing weight in my case 2000Kg
He then said ok you can proceed

John
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Surfer said:
The diesel autos don't make the grade and cannot tow anything heavier than about 1300kg and you need to select the manual mode and chaneg gear which defeats the object of buying an auto.
Why do you need to select the manual mode? The HDi 135 FAP Automatic is rated to tow 1500kg.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello John_374564913,
The way different countries interpret or enforce towing is down to their own governmants directions. Some may have agreed to to follow the EU directives but others may have an opt out or specific variations, so your expereicen in Slovinia may have little relevance to the way the law is used in the UK

Slovinija only joined the EU in 2004and it may not have fully embodied the the EU vehicle and transport regulations when you passed into it.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Prof John L said:
Hello John_374564913,
The way different countries interpret or enforce towing is down to their own governmants directions. Some may have agreed to to follow the EU directives but others may have an opt out or specific variations, so your expereicen in Slovinia may have little relevance to the way the law is used in the UK

Slovinija only joined the EU in 2004and it may not have fully embodied the the EU vehicle and transport regulations when you passed into it.
Enforcement may be different from one country to another, but interpretation is consistent. The whole idea of having EU Directives is to ensure consistent interpretation.
What the customs officer in Slovenia did was basically nothing more than a quick check. Whether noseweight was taken into account or not was largely immaterial for the purpose of simply establishing whether his outfit was legal or not because there was obviously an adequate margin either way.
 
Apr 26, 2010
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Thank you Lutz

This was my opinion it was quick for him to see the caravan maximum weight was 1565 Kg the maximum tow weight for the car was 2000Kg

Therefore well within any legal limits.
By the way surfer my merecedes is an automatic and well capable of pulling 2000Kg in auto mode returning an average of 23.3 MPG
Towing 1,565Kg in my opinion is a good return

John
 
Jul 18, 2017
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Traffic police can have no relevance to kerbweight, as there is no documentation fir the car that defines it. In any case what use would they put kerbweight too.
The legal aspects are the cars Gross Vehicle Weight, the cars maximum specified towing load and caravan MTPLM. To a policeman or DVSA officer kerbweight is irrelevant. It’s use for caravanners is to start the matching procedure to match car to caravan using the ratio of kerbweight to MTPLM. ( The 85%guide). But even here the cars maximum specified tow weight must not be exceeded.

Not sure why you are replying to a 11 year old thread? They have probably traded in that vehicle by now.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Not sure why you are replying to a 11 year old thread? They have probably traded in that vehicle by now.
It popped up as a new post and I am so pumped up with the Tigers beating Saracens that I failed to spot its date. But why it popped up I don’t know. But thank you for your eternal vigilance.
 
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