Mobile phones at petrol stations?

[Steve L]

Now I expect this will cause a raft of oppinion but here is a true account of what happened to me at our local Morrisons petrol station last friday.

As I pulled into the petrol station my wife was sat in the passenger seat talking to our daughter on her mobile. I stopped at the pump, got out and proceeded to fill the tank with fuel as you do. Next there was a tanoy message, "would the person at pump 12 stop using their mobile phone" as I was at pump 12 I took no notice as I was not using my phone. Then the message played again, I still took no notice as i was not using my phone. Then the petrol pump got turned off.

The tanoy message then said " stop the person inside your car using the phone". Now as the windows were closed, I had to then leave the nozzel unattended and go to my wife's door and open it to tell her to stop the phone call.

When I went to pay for the fuel the manager proceeded to tell me off. However I pointed out that the myth of mobiles causing explosions has long since been prooven totallt wrong, not only on Mythbusters (sky tv), Richard Hammonds brainiac abuse (tv) and also Top Gear (BBC tv).

However as I was annoyed at his tone and behavior plus the embarassment that my wife had suffered I chose to look up what the Health & Safety executive say on the subject. So off I went Googling under "are you allowed to use mobile phones at petrol filling stations" and found the following on the HSE web site.

(1) Mobile phones should not be used by customers or forecourt staff whilst actually dispensing petrol into fuel tanks or containers.

(2) There is no need to restrict the use of mobile phones, with respect to the safe keeping of petrol,at other times or in other areas of the forecourt.This includes in the shop,IN MOTOR VEHICLES PARKED ON THE FORECOURT,or in any other non-hazardous areas.

I have written to Morrissons explaining the above and pointing out that they are far more at risk of explosion caused by "anit-static strips" dangling from cars or safety cables dragging on the floor from trailers. Both of which can and do cause a sperk which under the right conditiond could ignite spilt fuel or engine oil spill's on the forecourt's as they are all stone surfaces.

While I agree and abide by the general rules of not using a phone while driving, and definately would not even take my phone out of the car while re-fuelling, I don't see why we should be penalised for using a phone in a secure safe place (enclosed car passenger compartment). Even hospitals have now relaxed their rules and allow phones on the wards so that they don't get pestered by the patient to bring a phone to them.

In my particular case. The forecourt manager constantly and un-necessarily using his tanoy, not only was constantly distracting me during filling which could easily of resulted in spilt fuel, but also by him using an electrically propelled tanoy on the forecourt so excessively could actually cause an explosion more easily then what a mobile phone in a closed cell would wever do.

So now I'll wait for the onslaught.

Also I'll update you guys on what the head office response is.

Atb Steve L.

 

[Surfer]

Funny you should mentioned this. Although it has not happened to me I was on the morrisons forecourt at Malvern and the same thing happened with a woman sitting in a car.

Most times I don't know the number of the pump until I walk to pay up. I think Morrisons are ove rfeacting and not using discretion. If the manager had bawled me out in front of other customers he would have got a right tongue lashing from me and also reported.

 

[Rick1]

Most petrol forecourts have notices up asking you to turn off your mobiles, I cant see your problem really and if you had to open the door to tell your wife to turn it off the call over the tannoy couldnt have been that loud.

Just my opinion

 

[carper2]

I have known some petrol stations switch off all the pumps when somone has bee using a mobile.

I was at one garage on the A14 when all hell let loose as one stupid idiot driving a foreign car got out smoking a cigarette. He soon got the message even though he couldn't speak English.

Les

 

[carper2]

Sorry forgot to say if the Manager was that concerned surely he should have got off his fat backside and came out and told you.

Les

 

[hgv dave]

hi all

moblie phones do not cause fires at petrol stations...that has been proved.....what is not mentioned is a mobile phone might cause the electronic petrol pump to malfunction and thats why they dont let you use mobiles at filling stations....not sure if its true of todays pumps but im sure that this is an urban myth that someone using a cb radio when filling up was able to pay less for his petrol because the radio signal interfered with the pump readout......like i said i belive this is an urban myth but you never know

hgv dave

 

[Steve L]

First of all, as you all know Health & safety seems to of gone way over the top these days and for the Health & Safety executive to actually publish that there is no need for a blanket ban on phones, they must be a thousand and one percent sure that there is no danger.

However my point about exposing my wife to danger by opening her door relates to the HSE guidelines regarding the use of communication apperatus and the risk of incident contained in their web page info.

As for CB radio's, the scare there is due to much higher voltages of radio operation in comparison to a mobile phone and the risk of static interference during transmission.

However as useual the police are exempt from regulation despite their radio equipment being just as potent as CB's.

Ambulances use low voltage radio equipment as they are more likely to be involved in close quater attendance to petrol spills etc.

Finally the health & safety executive also plainly state that blanket banning at forecourts does nothing more than highten the risk of verbal altracation between customer and staff or worse.

To be quite honest I can fully understand a petrol station hitting the emergencey button if some berk was stupid enough to have a *** in his/her mouth at the time.

I saw a Richard Hammond program where 50 mobile phones were put into a caravan laden with 50 gallons of petrol. They then symutainiously rang the phones and absolutely nothing happened. The had to use alternative methods of detonation to prove there was an explosion risk.

Atb Steve L

 

[ProfJohnL]

Steve,

A petrol retailer has the same rights as any other retailer in deciding whether to sell their product or not. They are "take it or leave it" conditions and if the customer wishes to seek to purchase they are obliged to follow the vendors instructions.

In the case of fuel retailing, there are some fairly obvious potential dangers. Namely the fact that liquid fuel is being sloshed around, and inevitably there will vapour/gas being released from pump nozzles, and fuel tank openings. There is also the risk of someone over filling and actually causing a spillage.

If a forecourt attendant or manager sees any activity that they feel is contrary to good safety, I think they are right to take the side of caution, even if the HSE have decided that the activity represents an acceptable risk.

Don't forget that the HSE guidance is for minimum standards, and there is nothing to stop a higher level of safety being adopted by a company.

In many cases forecourt etiquette will be dictated by company policy which has to incorporate HSE issues and the requirements of the companies insurers. It may be the insurance company that still requires zero use of mobile phones on forecourts.

I have not seen the Top Gear event, but I can guess that it was done more as a publicity stunt rather than a properly conducted experiment, consequently at best it will only indicate that the fuel did not ignite on that occasion, and there could be many reasons for that outcome that were not explained or allowed to get in the way of the entertainment.

Perhaps the forecourt manager could have handled your incident differently, but equally it may have been the safest way to bring the situation under control.

Having said that, I do think that there are some mighty strange anomalies regarding fuel stations. I guess there is a much greater chance of a source of ignition from hot parts of engines, exhausts and brakes, and then there is the opening an shutting of doors where a friction spark may arise, and of course the starter motor. How many times have you had a static shock when you touch a car?

 

[Steve L]

Very good point John on the static shock principle. Most of our Renaults have had a habit of developing static electricity. which often is cured by fitting an anti static strap which allows the electricity to flow to ground. Hence my original point about these straps being a potential soarce of ignition of fuel/oil left on the forecourt.

However, for the HSE to actually state "there is no need" to prevent operation of phones inside the car, they would have to be very very certain of facts and of backed that up with testing before making the statement.

If you go and look at the HSE info on the subject of the use of phones at petrol stations, you will clearly see that the forecourt manager managed to encourage me to break several "No No's" including leaving the pump unattended, exposing my wife to a possable explosion risk from static spark (opening the door), and exposing her active phone to the atmosphere of freshly dispenced petrol.

Being an ex-Health & safety officer with a company in the top 100 agri chemical & manufcturing businesses in the world, I have had a very rigorous training in COSH, RIDOR and HSE subjects to name a few.

To be quit honest I could name at least 15 points where Morrisons have failed in their customer duty of care and respossability in just this incident alone.

I this case first of all, the only prohibition notice for mobiles is actually at the pump where usually only the pump operator stand's. Secondly the manager could of got off his butt and wondered over to offer advice rather than delight in broadcasting. Or may be if morrisons are going above and beyond their duty of care, should they not advertise that by handing out an information leaflet to those who breach their own home based rules.

I do agree John, that HSE guidelines are on the whole a minimum level to uphold, but if you had done your home work and of read their blurb you would see that they actually warn against scaremongering and over reacting, suing the term "there is no need" in bullet point 4 of their guidance notes on using mobile phones in petrol stations. They also go further and explain that over reactions such as these can actually put staff and customers at risk as it can cause heated arguments which are not necessary.

As I've said, I will update when I've heard Morrisons side of the story, but if they can not provide a good reason for ignoring what is clear HSE advice and a distinctive directive not to go over the top, then I'm quite happy to pass this over to BBC Watchdog for them to chew on.

ATB

Steve L.

 

[Trevor_374569540]

The problem today is that the mobile phone seems to rule, what would have happened before mobile phones, would your wife have left the car and walked half a mile to use a pay phone whilst you filled up, I really dont think so.

If the sign says "Do not use mobile phones" thats what it means

 

[Reg]

Oh dear is it really something to get wound up about?

Why not just smile, turn it off, fill up with petrol, smile leave and then turn it on again?

Smile..... be happy!!!!

 

[David_374413417]

If there are sign's "DO NOT USE MOBILE PHONES" don't use them!

Some people think rules don't apply to them, but they do.

I think you were just embarrassed at being told off!

I don't think what they did on braniac give someone the right to break the rules.

If Clarkson told you to park on double yellow lines would you do so and then moan about grtting a ticket.

I DON'T THINK SO

 

[Philspadders]

oh dear. the only reason we are aksed not to use mobile phones while filling out cars up is this.

In the US , where fuel pumps have a lock mechanism that allows drivers to leave the nozzle in the filler while pumping fuel, there were a series of nasty accidents involving mobile phones.

In these caswes it appears that the drivers had been distracted and allowed the fuel to overflow and in a number of cases , had actually driven off with the hose still attached to the car.

iot has nothing to do with phones affecting electronics , as they cant , otherwise they would not had met CE standars, or causing sparks.

 

[Dave_374330759]

Here's another person who feels that that the rules shouldn't apply to them, is it because they feel they are petty or because they are superior in some way. The garage had a rule which they were perfectly entitlesd to impose and to enforce, however Steve thought that him and his wife should be exempt and because he was admonished felt that it was worthy of making a fuss - pathetic and more petty than the rule in my opinion

 

[ProfJohnL]

Very good point John on the static shock principle. Most of our Renaults have had a habit of developing static electricity. which often is cured by fitting an anti static strap which allows the electricity to flow to ground. Hence my original point about these straps being a potential soarce of ignition of fuel/oil left on the forecourt.

However, for the HSE to actually state "there is no need" to prevent operation of phones inside the car, they would have to be very very certain of facts and of backed that up with testing before making the statement.

If you go and look at the HSE info on the subject of the use of phones at petrol stations, you will clearly see that the forecourt manager managed to encourage me to break several "No No's" including leaving the pump unattended, exposing my wife to a possable explosion risk from static spark (opening the door), and exposing her active phone to the atmosphere of freshly dispenced petrol.

Being an ex-Health & safety officer with a company in the top 100 agri chemical & manufcturing businesses in the world, I have had a very rigorous training in COSH, RIDOR and HSE subjects to name a few.

To be quit honest I could name at least 15 points where Morrisons have failed in their customer duty of care and respossability in just this incident alone.

I this case first of all, the only prohibition notice for mobiles is actually at the pump where usually only the pump operator stand's. Secondly the manager could of got off his butt and wondered over to offer advice rather than delight in broadcasting. Or may be if morrisons are going above and beyond their duty of care, should they not advertise that by handing out an information leaflet to those who breach their own home based rules.

I do agree John, that HSE guidelines are on the whole a minimum level to uphold, but if you had done your home work and of read their blurb you would see that they actually warn against scaremongering and over reacting, suing the term "there is no need" in bullet point 4 of their guidance notes on using mobile phones in petrol stations. They also go further and explain that over reactions such as these can actually put staff and customers at risk as it can cause heated arguments which are not necessary.

As I've said, I will update when I've heard Morrisons side of the story, but if they can not provide a good reason for ignoring what is clear HSE advice and a distinctive directive not to go over the top, then I'm quite happy to pass this over to BBC Watchdog for them to chew on.

ATB

Steve L.

I did not need to do any homework thank you,

I was commenting on the right of the station owner to apply what rules they like over and above what is required by law.

 

[Steve L]

Dave,& David.

You guys realy do need to read the Health & safety Guideance on this subject before you condem others without facts to back up off the cuff comments.

Phil has actually pointed out exactly where and why people who are stood outside their vehicle are banned from using mobile phones.

I actually fully support a ban on using mobiles in any format (hands free, blue tooth, or illegally in the hand)by the driver of any vehicle. I have even been in trouble at work for refusing to ring a work collegue who i knew had not got hands free phone ability. Infact my boss rang this guy 12 times in two hours and I made a formal complaint to my Health & Safety manager and the MD, which got my boss awritten warning for failing to consider a work collegue's safety while driving.

There are far mor dangerous things going on at petrol stations tan a passenger using a mobile within the confines of a car with all it's windows up.

At the very same supermarket filling station I saw such an incident yesterday. A lorry drove in to fill up with diesel, but it's CB radio ariel mounted on the roof of the cab was scraping along the underside of the canopy of the forecourt. What do you think might of happened if it came into contact with the brocken light fittings that have been smashed by lorries that are too tall to comply with the height signage, as there does have to be a safety margin in a height declaration. Or what might happen if the lorry driver used his CB radio while the ariel was in contact with the steel work thus able to back feed static electricity developed by the radio signal.

So if people read what is available in the H & S information rather than apply individual interpretations before they comment, they will not only of learnt something, but also will understand why people proclaim the uk has gone Health & safety mad.

I'll leave you with a serios question to which I would appreciate everyone answering.

Which is more important in your view of Health & Safety, an accident or a near miss?

It is a serious question because it will highlight the discussions here.

Cheers.

Steve L.

 

[Trevor_374569540]

Unfortunately when you take the anorak off, if the sign says "Do not use mobile phones on this forecourt" then you dont use them.

After all the forecourt is Private Property, you can always use one that does not say you cant use mobile phones, but you might have along way to go to find one

 

[Mikey1]

Dave,& David.

You guys realy do need to read the Health & safety Guideance on this subject before you condem others without facts to back up off the cuff comments.

Phil has actually pointed out exactly where and why people who are stood outside their vehicle are banned from using mobile phones.

I actually fully support a ban on using mobiles in any format (hands free, blue tooth, or illegally in the hand)by the driver of any vehicle. I have even been in trouble at work for refusing to ring a work collegue who i knew had not got hands free phone ability. Infact my boss rang this guy 12 times in two hours and I made a formal complaint to my Health & Safety manager and the MD, which got my boss awritten warning for failing to consider a work collegue's safety while driving.

There are far mor dangerous things going on at petrol stations tan a passenger using a mobile within the confines of a car with all it's windows up.

At the very same supermarket filling station I saw such an incident yesterday. A lorry drove in to fill up with diesel, but it's CB radio ariel mounted on the roof of the cab was scraping along the underside of the canopy of the forecourt. What do you think might of happened if it came into contact with the brocken light fittings that have been smashed by lorries that are too tall to comply with the height signage, as there does have to be a safety margin in a height declaration. Or what might happen if the lorry driver used his CB radio while the ariel was in contact with the steel work thus able to back feed static electricity developed by the radio signal.

So if people read what is available in the H & S information rather than apply individual interpretations before they comment, they will not only of learnt something, but also will understand why people proclaim the uk has gone Health & safety mad.

I'll leave you with a serios question to which I would appreciate everyone answering.

Which is more important in your view of Health & Safety, an accident or a near miss?

It is a serious question because it will highlight the discussions here.

Cheers.

Steve L.

From years on working on petrol the forecourts the risk of explosion whilst using a phone was unproven,but it could happen,the main issue was the dropping of the phone and causing the battery to disconnect creating a spark, petrol vapour is heavier than air so again there was an element of risk.

I did always laugh at the non smoking rule when they always sold swan vesta matches in the garage shop.

 

[David_374413417]

Steve L.

I don't think my comment was "off the cuff" as you put it, i don't always agree with all Health and Safety Guideances on most things i belive in a bit of common sense, which a lot of people lack these days.

I have seen a person get back in there car after paying for petrol then light a *** before driving off. " NO COMMON SENSE " Thats how some people are now "THICK!!"

People have a right to put up sign's ( at work or at home ) with whatever they want on them, if you don't like there rules, go somewhere else!

simple as that!!!!

David

 

[xtrailman]

Has anyone actually seen a fire caused at a fuel station? i never have, i don't think its that easy to cause a fire?

And the chances of causing a fire with a mobile phone are very remote?

I think there is a greater danger from a car ticking over, or stating up.

But there is a real possibly of a phone interfering with electronics, i personally have seen leds light up on pcb's when i worked, but by using the radio handsets, also computer screens could distort.

 

[owenk]

I have seen a couple of Petrol Station fires, and they are not pretty.Not only do they do a lot of damage, but they risk people's lives.

One of the fires I saw was started by the vapour from the fuel tank of a motorhome igniting due to the gas pilot light of the fridge being on. It wiped out the Motorhome, four other cars and melted the cases of all the petrol pumps on the site! I dread to think what the reinstatement costs must have been.

It isn't easy to start a fire - in fact a cigarette does not have sufficient energy - the reason smoking is banned is so that people do not use matches or lighters on the sites - which have plenty of energy.

The areas around petrol pumps are classified as Zone 1 - an area which may have a potentially explosive atmosphere.

My advise is simple - when you find a phone that is classified as safe in a zone 1 atmosphere - use it! Until then follow the signs and wait until you are off the site.

 

[Mikey1]

From years on working on petrol the forecourts the risk of explosion whilst using a phone was unproven,but it could happen,the main issue was the dropping of the phone and causing the battery to disconnect creating a spark, petrol vapour is heavier than air so again there was an element of risk.

I did always laugh at the non smoking rule when they always sold swan vesta matches in the garage shop.

 

[Philspadders]

CRT screens will distort using old style walkie talkies.Its due the magnet in the speaker.

 

[NickinFrance]

I think the idea of a mobile phone causing ignition at a filling station has been debunked fairly compressively but as with most H & S 'rules' no one has the guts to remove the signs.

Although one of my local bars/Tabac is also a filling station which because of the indoor smoking ban has ash-trays outside on the pumps & they are used, which I think is a bit too far the other way.

At a number of marine pumps, it's normal practice to tie-up & call the operator on VHF to get served, some of the pumps are only a couple of feet away from my ariel transmitting at 5W & I've never seen or heard of one going bang.

 

[Steve L]

There is no need to restrict the use of mobile phones, with respect to the safe keeping of petrol,at other times or in other areas of the forecourt.This includes in the shop,IN MOTOR VEHICLES PARKED ON THE FORECOURT,or in any other non-hazardous areas.

This is the actual bullet point 4 published by the Health & safety executive on the subject of using mobile phones at petrol stations.

I whole heartedly agree that the person outside the car MUST NOT use a mobile phone while filling the car with petrol or even for that matter walk across the forecourt using a phone.

But following H&S advice clearly a car with it's windows closed is sufficient to insulate the phone user.

Now let's get this into perspective, I am not likely to delibertely park my car on a forecourt to specifically have a phone conversation, as I can think of at least a dozen safer and more suitable places to stop and chat on a phone. Like wise if you rang me and I couldn't stop if for instance I was on a clearway, I've got your number and would cll you back when it is convienient Ie from a lay-by.

Now david. I did ask you to comment on which is the most important, AN ACCIDENT or A NEAR MISS, I would welcome your answer on that question. The offer to answer that one is extended to all who have already commented. So don't be shy!

I have in the past used petrol forecourts on a dialy basis as my usual job envolves driving upto 150 miles a day to and from my job. So by doing that I am full aware of "custom & practice" on forecourts.

Please do take the time to aswer the accident/nearmiss question.

Atb Steve L.