Near accident on A49 at Leominster.

[Parksy]

This incident could so easily of shattered any hope of holiday for the family. I was so appauled at the display of crap driving that I feel it is about time we "named and shamed" (to call a phrase) the 1% of caravanners who give everyone else a bad name.

The incident happened at 3-15pm Friday afternoon 24th may at the island on the A49 at the northern approach to Leominster. The road conditions were very wet and were recovering from a cloudburst of rain. I was travelling out of town north to turn right on the roundabout. I entered the roundabout with my right turn signal on and was about to go south down the A49. However I had to do an emergencey stop to allow a car towing a caravan that had come upto the roundabout far too fast from Shrewsbury direction. The driver had a clear look of panic and denial of the fact that his car had got the ABS kicking in and tyres scrabbling for grip and the caravan wheels locked and skidding under hard braking. He clearly cound not stop and went south towards Hereford. Infact when I caught him up at the A44 island he had managed to get to 60mph and proceeded to cut the island across both lanes to carry on to Hereford and again he would of not been able to stop at the roundabout.

What I can not understand is, why do people have to drive so fast in the rain and drive their car which with the caravan on the back is twice it's normal weight and you have probably all of your family inside?
The caravan was an Avondale Rialto Millenium edition and bore the reg (removed by moderator *)

The standard of people's driving and their lack of due care and consideration is just spiraling out of control and if it takes the embarassment of naming and shaming to get some improvement then so be it.

In these times with the cost of fuel rocketing, it would pay dividends to drive more economically. By that I mean ease off the throttle well before the junction or bend and after safely navigating the bend/junction steadily build speed. By just doing this I can return nearly 40mpg Diesel, towing my caravan and furthermore, we arrive relaxed and ready to enjoy our holiday.

*Moderators Edit:
Steve, It's not up to us to 'name and shame' those who'se standard of driving may or may not be of an acceptable standard.
We are not traffic police or judge and jury, this is a caravan forum and while we can hope that those towing caravans drive in a safe and courteous manner and have no reason to doubt the accuraccy of your comments, it's not up to us to enforce traffic laws or to pass wholly subjective judgement on members of the public.
Parksy (Moderator)

 

[Dustydog]

The driver had a clear look of panic and denial of the fact that his car had got the ABS kicking in and tyres scrabbling for grip and the caravan wheels locked and skidding under hard braking. .

The caravan was an Avondale Rialto Millenium edition and bore the reg


The standard of people's driving and their lack of due care and consideration is just spiraling out of control and if it takes the embarassment of naming and shaming to get some improvement then so be it.

Sadly Steve as with many things it is always the minority who will spoil it for the majority.
Whilst I am all for naming and shaming, at the end of the day even if you reported him to the police it would still be your word against his.
Now if there just happened to be a Law Enforcement Officer reading this thread..........

How old was the bloke?
What make of vehicle?

 

[Steve L]

You may well be right dusty. But I remember an instant when I visited a friend in Germany. Their local paper was full of about 50 car photo's and each had a name and address below. When I enqired what it was for? I was told that they were all speeders in the local county (as such) and that as they failed to pay the fine issued on time, they get onto the page of shame as it was called. Trust me, ten times as many paid up to avoid the embarasement.
I couldn't tell you what make the car was, it could of been a mondeo or passat, I was too concerned that my sudden braking didn't cause a domino effect with the other cars enteri ng the roundabout from two directions and the petrol station traffic.

On the subject of mpg, I'm very feather footed and even solo get 7 mpg better in the same car than my brother-in-law use to get. It bugs the hell out of him as we often go with him (2 cars) and he watched my mpg quite emviously. I have sat shot gun with him and given him a few pointers and he is getting better slowly. But he does like tapping the loud pedal of his S type R. But now it's 3mpg leaner.

 

[NigelHutson]

Sadly, there are far, far too many people who have far more belief in their ability than they have actual ability. It's only vehicle technology that prevents them from coming to grief. In my former life as a Police collision investigator I saw the results far too often. How many times do we see a car approach a junction and the nut holding the wheel slams on the brakes at the last moment? More often than not they would consider themselves good drivers. And it's not always youngsters!
I do not consider myself a good driver. My ability is for others to judge, but I do believe that I am observant and as careful as it's possible to be.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

How many times do we see a car approach a junction and the nut holding the wheel slams on the brakes at the last moment?

Brakes!!! my experience is they usually keep going? and call it filtering in!!!

 

[NigelHutson]

Colin,
So cynical for one so young!

Nigel.

 

[Steve L]

Point taken Parksy.

Thats why my caravan stays parked on bank holidays and factory fortnight. I only nipped out to give my son a lift to work as he didn't fancy cycling with the amount of traffic on the roads. He's seen what happened to me following a hit and run.
One amazing fact that Colin probably has already heard after his 48 years of driving is that you won't get cheaper insurance consumate with the number of accident free years beyond the 60 or 75% no claim discount, purely because after that you're due an accident.
I wouldn't even bother to involve the authorities as now with the austerity kicking in, you'll probably find the old warwichshire cardboard cut out police cars back on bridge rails and the pound shop copper stickers actually on sale. APNR is the only constant used now. Back in the day you use to get a local bobby who knew everyone and if you did wrong he'd clip your ear hole and then take you home to see your dad who'd give you another.
Unfortunately in our now over pc uk, parental control has long been forgotten and people just couldn't care less.

 

[Parksy]

.......... Back in the day you use to get a local bobby who knew everyone and if you did wrong he'd clip your ear hole and then take you home to see your dad who'd give you another.
Unfortunately in our now over pc uk, parental control has long been forgotten and people just couldn't care less.

You made me laugh with that one Steve, I had visions of a middle aged man commiting a motoring offence and being given a clip round the earhole before being taken back to his very elderly parents.
I was either very good or very fortunate, because no local copper ever laid a hand on me, and if they or any other male adult had done so our old man would have knocked them out.
He never hit me so nobody else would be allowed to, and a look and a quiet word from my father, a widower who bought three of us up on his own and still went to work in an iron foundry, was more than enough.

 

[NigelHutson]

Go on Steve, admit it! You just never got caught!

 

[xtrailman]

I think the OP has got a cheek posting a private reg, (that is on show in post 2).

If that was my reg i would be seeking compensation.

People have to learn that you can't post libel-est information with out repercussions, as others on Twitter and Face book have recently found out.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

I think the OP has got a cheek posting a private reg, (that is on show in post 2).

If that was my reg i would be seeking compensation.

People have to learn that you can't post libel-est information with out repercussions, as others on Twitter and Face book have recently found out.

from who Ray you are reading too much in to this, in order for some statement to be libelous as with the facebook case it has to be "UNTRUE" and it is the plaintiff who has to PROVE the statement was untrue, so if it WAS yours and you just happend to be on a roundabout on the A49 in Leominster at 3.15 last friday you would have one hell of a time proving it!!,
of course if you were not there at that time then of course it would be libelous, in which case look out of the front window because your pride and joy has been stolen.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

What I can not understand is, why do people have to drive so fast in the rain and drive their car which with the caravan on the back is twice it's normal weight and you have probably all of your family inside?
The caravan was an Avondale Rialto Millenium edition and bore the reg XX XX XXX

The standard of people's driving and their lack of due care and consideration is just spiraling out of control and if it takes the embarassment of naming and shaming to get some improvement then so be it.

hi Steve,
while I share your dismay at the standard of todays drivers (the worsed I have seen in 48 years of being on the road) i doubt that naming and shaming will do any good as this particular caravanner will probably never have been on any sort of towing course be a member of a forum or even read a related magazine.
raising the standard of drivers in general is more important and if that means more of the dreaded camera's so be it, a section of road near us that links two small towns and is 30mph from one town center to the other is locally known as the race track, where proceeding along at the 30mph limit you will be passed by everything from HGV,s to mopeds, inc buses and caravans, on entering one of the towns you have to negotate a small roundabout,(one that has a walled center and flower beds) this has been knocked down and rebuilt so many times the flowers dont have time to grow, and the council no longer rebuild it,
untill something is done about it the best we can do is keep out of the way and let them get on with it!!!

on a seperate note, my tow car is probably half the size of yours and if I could get 40mpg towing I would be a very happy bunny.

 

[Parksy]

I think the OP has got a cheek posting a private reg, (that is on show in post 2).

If that was my reg i would be seeking compensation.

People have to learn that you can't post libel-est information with out repercussions, as others on Twitter and Face book have recently found out.

I think you'll find that I had removed the registration number from Steve's OP as soon as I saw it and very shortly after, when I realised that the quote in post 2 also showed the reg number, I edited that too.
You may notice that I explained to Steve in Leo why we can't allow things like reg numbers in posts, and he has accepted this, but thanks for your concern Ray, you have reinforced something that I tried to tell forum users about for ages but not many people believed me at the time

As moderators we do our best to protect the forum from threat of legal action but during holiday periods there may be a time lag, I'm always offline when I go out or off in the caravan.
The threat of legal action is always present with published material and internet comments are deemed to have been published, in our case by Haymarket, which is why most internet forums use moderators.
The recent Twitter libel case shows that compensation is sometimes awarded if libellous or defamatory comments are proved to have been published, but it's no coincidence that Lord McAlpine accepted compensation from the BBC and then successfully sued Sally Bercow but did not pursue ordinary members of the public who spread the libel.
The person or organisation being sued needs to be worth winning against so that damages, if awarded, plus legal costs, could be substantial.
This is why a large organisation such as Haymarket use volunteer moderators like myself to monitor and remove risky material from their websites, instead of having to pay a team of high powered lawyers to defend them in court whenever somebody takes legal action against them in the hope of winning significant damages from an organisation that has substantial assets.
Hmmm, I wonder if it's worth asking Lord Hezza for a rise? I'd get two magazines a month then

Go on Steve, admit it! You just never got caught!

Trust me Nigel, dad could have shown the detective squad a thing or two, he had a network of spies who were everywhere.
In those days the neighbours used to watch what was happening outside all the time, more often than not they sat outside on their doorsteps, cleaned their windows and the weekly washing was done in 'the bruce' (Black Country dialect for Brew House because of the copper boiler housed in a brick outbuilding) or washed and swept the pavements (no tv to watch back then) so any misdemeanour's would reach his ears before I came in for my tea.

 

[ProfJohnL]

In days gone by (before the internet was so extensive) it was virtually impossible for a member of the public to be able to identify the registered keeper and their address from just the registration mark. It was unlikely publicising a number plate in compromising circumstances could have been classed as defamation of character.

But times have changed. The DVLA will now sell information about the keepers of registration plates to certain commercial organisations, Insurance companies exchange details, VOSA now uses the internet for MOT data, and HPI also carry personal information. Whenever you get diversification of data sharing there are greater opportunities for the security of that data to be compromised, not just from genuine mistakes, but from the those people with malicious intent, so publishing a registration plate these days could I am sure be used to identify a registered keeper.

In this case I can think of at least three possible problems with
the accusations based on a registration plate alone;

• The behavior was only reported by one person, and is uncorroborated. Was it actually illegal or offensive?
• Were there mitigating circumstances that the observer was not aware.
• Was someone else other than the registered keeper of the offending vehicle driving?
• Was the registration plate on the trailer the same as the one on the car. (Of course it should be but....)

With so many unknowns it is unsafe to accuse the registered keeper by publishing the registration mark.

 

[NigelHutson]

Steve,
I know exactly what you mean. I was dragged up around the mines and steel works (my grand-fathers worked, one in each), but there was a real spirit of community despite many folk not having much in the way of "things". Today everyone seems to think only of themselves (Blimey, I'm sounding like a grumpy old man!).
Back to the topic.
The way many drive today, they quite obviously haven't got a care in the world for their own safety, let alone anyone elses. You often hear "what I'd do if anyone harmed my kids" etc, and yet it's ok for parents to fly around in their shiny metal boxes putting everyone in danger (including more often than not their beloved kids when on the school run). We live on a fairly small housing estste where there's a real mix of ages, including some very small children. Yet it seems fine for many folk to think that the 30 limit is a target. I can just imagine if someone used their offspring as a target when they were out playing in the street?????????
Yes, vehicle technology is better than it used to be (thank goodness), but the weak link still sits behind the wheel. A modern vehicle may be able to stop in a much shorter distance than one from ten/twenty years ago, BUT the nut holding the wheel still has to react, and the 0.7 seconds that the Highway Code quotes is so far from the truth and is utter, utter c**p in the real World! The average reaction time is between one and two seconds, but in truth some people just don't react at all. If you're travelling at 30 MPH (13.41 m/s) and you're nearer the two seconds (17 - 25 yr olds and 55 upwards), then even if you're average you've still travelled the length of a swimming pool (or two coaches) before you've even reacted.

 

[Raywood]

The other driver would have to prove he did not drive properly and that would be too expensive to attempt for most of us. Having said that the site could leave themselves open to action if they cannot substantiate what someone else has posted and did not take immediate action to delete it.

 

[Gafferbill]

Here in Sussex we already have a scheme where you can easily report bad driving via the internet to Sussex Police.
The police only act on the information gained if they receive several such reports about the same vehicle from different people.

Full details here

 

[Parksy]

The other driver would have to prove he did not drive properly and that would be too expensive to attempt for most of us. Having said that the site could leave themselves open to action if they cannot substantiate what someone else has posted and did not take immediate action to delete it.

The deletion has to be 'within a reasonable time' Ray, and if it ever came to court action the definition of 'a reasonable time' would have to be agreed or ruled upon.

 

[Dustydog]

There's a hardware shop in Cullompton Devon who display photos of successfully prosecuted shoplifters in their window. They detail the full name and date of offence.

Maybe we will eventually go back in time and bring back the stocks

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,
The main and very important difference is that the shop is displaying those who have been tried and proven guilty, rather than those who have only been accused.

 

[Dustydog]

Hello Dusty,
The main and very important difference is that the shop is displaying those who have been tried and proven guilty, rather than those who have only been accused.

Precisely John.
Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Steve L]

My daughter some time ago had quite the opposite happen. She owned a red Renault meganne. A person in Leominster reported her car reg to the police (seems that is was a friend who was a copper) as a red meganne had hit a parked car belonging to the reporter, and she was told that she would be charged with failing to report an accident and failure to stop at the sceene. One small detail that prevented that was that she didn't do it !!!

The plaintif had seen my daughter's car parked up the road at her friends house and being a red car it fitted their bill to get their car repaired.
My daughter had to endure nearly a year of grief and stress about the real possability that if she was found guilty, she would loose her license as she hadn't been 2 years past her test date. And then subsequently she would of had to re-sit her driving test.
As it happened three people could give statements to varify where she was at the reported time of the accident which would of helped had it gone to court. However, the plaintiff wasn't charged with making a fraudulent claim or wasting police time.

So unfortunately we don't hold up the "innocent until proven guilty" banner. I am however quite happy with the name and shame policy, because if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to fear.

Oh and yep I have got away with harmless scrumping (after all picking roadside fruit is just that) and felt the hand of the local bobby on my shoulder when I was younger and wilder.

 

[woodsieboy]

Hi Steve
I have every sympathy with your daughter's ordeal.about 9 years ago my stepson was arrested and charged,with AGBH and as a result bail was granted and he was not allowed to live at home, even though the police had evidence that confirmed he could not have committed the offence with which he was charged they and CPS allowed the case to go to Crown Court where the judge ruled that he was free to leave the Court after 4 days of proceedings. Nobody was convicted in the case.We had the best part of a year spent going backwards and forwards to pre trial hearings,which were often adjourned becaust the CPS id not have their paperwork in order. As we are self employed this had an impact on our business, and at the end of the case we were told we were unable to claim for expenses or costs incurred for barrister etc.it changed my view of the legal system,and there have been notable other cases locally where people who have subsequently been found innocent,once the guilty party has been found,hav ehad to endure the pressures and stres of a triaL. We found out that my stepson was charged after one person made a statement to police in order to get himself off the hook.

 

[ProfJohnL]

These are indeed salutary tales, but the principle of Innocent until proven guilty was up held. In neither case was the accused proven guilty.

It is common for the police to charge persons in relation to a crime or incident as it gives them the time and duty to complete investigations. Just because you are charged does not make you guilty.

That said the two incidents reported do seem extreme, and I do believe that some compensation for expenses incurred should have been awarded to the proven innocents. However most people have some protection for legal costs as part of their household insurances, so that may have covered some of the costs. Failing that a private prosecution to sue for damages against the plaintiffs in the criminal cases might be a possibility.

 

[philspot1]

Just read this thread through and it struck me that no-one has mentioned the possibility that the reason for the excessive speed of the car+caravan was that the driver had stolen the van and was trying to put as much distance as possible between him and the theft site!!!!