new rules on towing trailers?????????

[Steve L]

I was at my brother-in-laws place last night. He is a qualified MOT tester and a mechanic for a BMW garage.
He came out with acomment that I found quite bemusing.
Apparently he was told by a VOSA trainer that towing rules are about to change again and that caravans and trailers will not be allowed to exceed the kerbside weight of the tow car, even if the tow car (ie a sorento 4X4 for instance) has a manufacturers towing capacity in excess of that. If, that is correct an awfull lot of 4X4 owners towing the big vans or twin horse trailers are going to come unstuck.

Has anyone else heard this? Or is it a load of bull?

I've always used the vin plate info on my cars to define it's tow capacity and double checked that on the pc tow car info, plus what is stated in the hand book for the car. I am fully aware of the driver license regs Jan 1997 changes.

To me it sounded a load of cobblers, but knowing how pathetic VOSA and the DVLA can be it could just be true!!!!!

What do you think?

Atb Steve L.

 

[Dustydog]

I think it's probably rubbish. VOSA and DVLA do not make the rules merely implement those made by Parliament. I suspect a number of highly paid Whitehall employees with nothing else better to do may be looking at it to justify their own salaries, but who knows?

Are you sure you are not "Ben Collins" The Stig revealed today? LOL

 

[Cockovan]

Funny you raise this point as I heard the same comment this weekend. As no caravanning organisation I am aware of condones towing over 100% ratio I can't see it affecting the caravanning fraturnity, cattle trailers, horse boxes and boat towers might start to be more aware of weights if it is true!

 

[Lutz]

Not condoning towing over 100% specifically applies to caravans. There is nothing inherently unsafe or wrong with towing trailers with a low frontal and side surface area over 100%.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi again to you all.Yes Lutz,that is all Fine & Dandy until brakes fail going down hill!!,your engine braking causes overheating because you might have failed to react fast enough to a Coolant Depletion and your Autobox Packs Up.
Pulling 'Over 100% of Kerbweight should be Outlawed unless it is On Private Land to prove that ' I've got a more powerful beasty than you',Neer Neer Na Neer Neer!.

 

[Lutz]

The trailer's overrun brakes should be perfectly able to stop the trailer itself without the need for any assistance from the towcar. This is highlighted by the fact that, under dry conditions, braking distance of a well-maintained outfit is no more than that of a solo vehicle (the picture is a bit different in the wet, though).

 

[Parksy]

.......until brakes fail going down hill!!,your engine braking causes overheating because you might have failed to react fast enough to a Coolant Depletion and your Autobox Packs Up.....

If your towing vehicle was in such poor condition that the above scenario actually took place you'd have to ask yourself what you were doing on the road in the first place let alone towing a trailer no matter what weight it was.

 

[mcghee]

i myself have towed several trailers radically heavier than the towing vehicle, but not at any great speed, and the trailers tended to have a very low centre of gravity due to the nature of the heavy load. in this situation there nothing wrong, or especially dangerous about it. a caravan, however is different in many aspects.

if this is about to become law, i can't see it being a problem for many caravanners, as i can't think of anyone i know who tows a 'van heavier than their towcar, and anyone who does needs to have a serious think.

you will probably find that if this is made law it will apply only to private passenger vehicles, not commercials, and possibly not off road vehicles.

you never know, it may even stop the idiots of this world from borrowing a caravan they know nothing about and flipping it on the m6.

 

[Steve L]

HI guy's you have just confirmed that was was said by a BMW trainer who was training technicians on the tow bar MOT test requirements. Perhaps he should of taken up the trade of repairing shoes atleast he would be spouting the right words for the trade.

I get quite fedup of so called experts over reacting and using scare tactics to put their point across.

The only info regarding this situation is pertaining to cat B drivers post 1997 where it does say that the trailer "should" not must not, exceed the max loaded weight of the tow car. Typically 4X4's would be restricted to about a 2 ton trailer.

We've been down the 80% tow weight suggestion route to safe towing before and decided that is cobblers too. A well loaded caravan will behave behind any vehicle. Paying attention to loading and the maintainence of the caravan in a good road worthy state will avoid most problems. Couple that with driving sesibly and you will avoid 99% of all issues with caravanning.

Failure to maintain a trailer or tow car and driving without due care and consideration is the down fall of most incidents with trailers. I have to agree with Parksy too. If you are towing a dodgy trailer with a ropy car and driving down hill too fast for brakes alone to cope with the slowing of the vehicle or not knowing how to use a gear box auto or manual, then you do need a "check up from the neck up"!!??

The heavyest load I have towed with a car to date was a Jaguar 420 (1967 vintage) weighing 38Cwt (1800Kgs) on an Ifor Williams 12ft 6" flat bed trailer behind a 2 Ltr Espace at 40 Mph from Glasgow to Leominster taking 12 hours to do so as I took it very steady, in the knowledge that I had a load far more heavier than the carbon fibre clad Renault. I new that if I got up to 50Mph the trailer started to drive the car instead of me pulling it. We had no incidents and were looked at by several police cars but as I was driving the outfit steady and pulling into lay by's to let que's pass, nothing was done by the boys in blue. I must admit that i would not recomend it to anyone, but at the time It had to be done.

Was I the stig, or was it even James May, he admitted it on radio five live 5 weeks ago??
All I can say is that stiggy is a great driving instructor as he can take TV actors and make them safe to thrash the ass off a car on a track. It take bottle to convert novices in a day. I had 4 weeks training at Lotus and Aston Martin before they let me loose on the test track. Another little known snippet, James has actually driven cars faster then the mop top from yorkshire.

As I've signed the official secrets act and several privacy decree's from the manufacturers I can't comment too much.

ATB steve L.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all.Well if there is any truth in this at all (no smoke without fire). Then it will really throw the "Cat among the Pigeons", won't it just?. Kerbside Weight and Kerbweight are not the same thing. First and foremost the manufacturers have got to get their act ( EU Directive 95/48/EC) together and start to publish Kerbweight as they should have been doing since 20th September 1995. I understand that an EU Directive is Mandatory. Therefore It is Enforceable. Why therefore is it still that manufacturers are not conforming and or brought to book?.
Also a certain data base needs to get their house in order and start kicking the butts of the manufactures to get the incorrect entries amended. Not least of all,the one for my car.
This Data Base is the first one that most people go to for their information,it is the one that the Caravan Dealers swear 'Black is White' that it is correct.

 

[Lutz]

But EU Directive 95/48/EC makes no reference to the terms 'kerbweight' or 'kerbside weight'. Any manufacturer quoting kerbweight does not, therefore, have to do so within the scope of an EU directive, which only refers to MIRO. It is up to him what he publishes, whether it is MIRO according to the directive or kerbweight according to convention. The term 'kerbweight', however, has no legal significance. The only law relating to anything other than the fully laden condition is that governing driving licence entitlement and that talks about 'unladen weight', which is something different again. Section 4 in the V5c certificate shows 'Mass in Service' which isn't defined anywhere, but which the DfT apparently understands to be the same as MIRO.
So, we have at least 4 terms for basically the same thing (with minor differences in most cases), but only one, 'unladen weight', is the one mentioned in any law. The latter isn't to be found in any other source, though, neither in an EU Directive, nor in the V5c certificate, both of which are also of legal significance.
Unless and until the powers-that-be get their act together and settle on common terminology the confusion will remain. Only then can one expect the manufacturers to be more specific in the data that they are publishing.
Even after it is all sorted out one must appreciate that any published data, whether in a brochure or a database, can only serve as a guideline. MIRO, kerbweight, unladen weight, Mass in Service or whatever you want to call it, is specific to each and every vehicle and can vary as much as 150kg from one car to another. Manufacturers should therefore never publish one single figure, but a range from the lightest vehicle with no options to the same model but loaded with all options. What towing match websites make out of that is then up to them.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Lutz.In the nicest way you and I have crossed swords on this EU Directive issue in the past.
Early in 2007 I found a direct reference to the details that I continually refer to when I quote EU Directive 95/48/EC. My search was relevant to the towing of a Caravan and the relationship to the weight of the Tow Vehicle.
If it is so incorrect,more to the point;does not state that which I have quoted;why then do Practical Caravan Magazine,The Caravan Club & The National Trailer & Towing Association all publish the same information; that I have repeatedly quoted?.
I first got my information from an EU Directive Document on the web and wrote it down verbatim. For some strange reason I cannot find any reference to it at all. With this information I then set about my battle with Towsafe & Volvo Cars UK. This went on for rather a long time with the main issue being, the very poor Customer Service Department at Volvo Cars UK. I have it documented from Towsafe that my 1997 Volvo T5 CD Auto on there Data Base is listed with the wrong kerbweight. The listing that sparked it all of was showing 1392kgs. The actual figure is 1638kgs. That is a massive difference,246kgs is way beyond any variation in model specification variations that would occur. Even The Police Version (fully stripped of toys etc) and a manual gearbox, would weigh more than that. There has been a total of 5 different figures for my car thrown up on the Towsafe Data Base !!?,non correct.
The question has been asked many times by many authoritative bodies and not least of all;Joe Public :- What was wrong with the old Ex Factory Weight ?.
The truth of the matter,I believe it was driven by the Caravan Industry in an attempt to up the score linked to the old 85% Chestnut. By artificially increasing the tow-vehicle weight (adding:-fuel,driver & a nominal luggage content) it would cover the intention/need to create heavier caravans. Heavier caravans are heavier because of all the Toys inside.Toys cost money,more Toys= more money=more profit. Using a vehicle at 1500 kgs old Ex Works Weight at 85% would be 1275kgs. An alteration to 1500kgs(+fuel+driver+luggage=an extra 125kgs)so now it is 1625kgs at 85% = 1381kgs. In this instance the caravan has now gained 106.25kgs of Profit Related FAT.
It also served to keep a lot of Jobsworth Individuals in a "Job",not least of all,some of the MEP's sent over on an alternative Jollies Trip at UK taxpayers expense. I have heard it said "that in the face of some of the European Motor Manufacturers our Once British Bulldog MP's are nothing more the Lap Dogs or Pussy Cats in disguise".

 

[Lutz]

I have just read through EU Directive 95/48/EC once again and although it uses the term 'mass in running order' throughout I can find no definition of it in the text. However, paragraph 2.5.4. of the corresponding ECE document TRANS/WP.29/78/Rev.1/Amend.2 defines the term as follows

"Mass of a vehicle in running order” means the mass of an unladen vehicle with bodywork, and with coupling device in the case of a towing vehicle, or the mass of the chassis with cab if the manufacturer does not fit the bodywork and/or coupling device, including coolant, oils, 90 per cent of fuel, 100 per cent of other liquids except used waters, tools, spare wheel, driver (75 kg) and, for buses and coaches, the mass of the crew member (75 kg) if there is a crew seat in the vehicle.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Rooster,

I have seen previous evidence that quite a number of the tow matching websites have errors in their databases, It is bound to happen, as they use humans to transfer information from what ever sources they can get their hands on.

According to some databases my car does not even exist! Unfortunately the Vehicle and licensing authorities do know it exists and charge me for the privilege of having it on their books.

It seem to me that your argument is with the towing website more than the vehicle manufacture, and you can choose to ignore the towing website so whilst I agree fully the terminology for kerbweight or MIRO etc needs to be clarified and probably enforced, I’m not sure why you needed to enter into protracted discussion with the towing website, unless their information influenced a sale?

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi again Lutz. Yes,all well & good. However this is NOT what I first unearthed, and sadly,foolishly or stupidly(long before the excess of pills) I did not photo copy it. However I believe that at the time I saved it to a file or folder. I have since replaced that particular PC, the hard-drive was fried by an Exocet Missile,I installed BullGuard on the present PC and at present all seems OK.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Prof John L. The reasoning behind my pursuit of the Data Base Provider was because of the belligerent attitude of the Caravan Sales Person,his insistance on the 85% despite the fact that I had told him that I had been towing large trailers & caravans for 40+yrs;and his blind belief in the accuracy/validity of the information in front of him. This was made worse by his complete refusal to recognise that there could not be such a grave error ! (come on,264kgs lighter than I knew it to be). He then stated that if I wished to purchase this caravan I would need to get a more suitable vehicle,then suggested a 4x4 Chelsea Tractor. After telling him that not only was he stupid & ignorant,indeed had a total lack of common sense, to even believe that it could be remotely near correct;I walked out.He lost the sale,I then went out and got an alternative,very similar caravan by Fleetwood. The pursuit of the manufacturer !,well where else do you go.If they don't know (they didn't) what then but to go to a weighbridge. Even then when I finally got my EEC Certificate of Conformity the figures did not add-up. It was all part & parcel of the need to verify to my insurers at the time, that in the event of a claim I was legal & proper with my car as a tow vehicle. More to the point, the kerweight shown as 1392kgs and a maximum tow of 1600kgs was a joke,to say the least. The Fleetwood has since been changed for the current van,the 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco, it is only run to just inside of 1600kgs.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you for the clarification.

This also revisits a thread from a few months back (perhaps it was you under a different name?) where an over zealous caravan sales person tried to tell a customer they could not sell them a particular caravan for the same reason as your report.

Perhaps Read Caravans might like to add a general comment about the responsibilities of dealers to ensure a customer has the right car. as I understand it, it is the drivers responsibility to ensure an outfit is road worthy, a dealer or garage can only advise, the decision is in the hands of the driver.

Also if a contarct of sale has been signed and all the financial matters are correctly in place, a supplier cannot refuse to supply the goods (breech of contract). It is not up to the dealer to decide if a customer is going to use them properly or not. extending that concept would mean that no car dealer would supply any car that can exceed the speed limit out side the dealership!

It is regrettable that the the dealer took such a high-handed attitude because it meant you were inconvenienced, and they lost a sale.

 

[JonnyG]

The original topic. was concerning "apparently" a VOSA trainee stating a change to the towing rules.

One has to ask one self that with so many caravanning organisations across Europe, that if such a law was to be in the pipeline, then we would surely know about it, way before it even got off the drawing board and way before a "trainee" of VOSA ? could be talking about any such passing of EU law. Which i am pretty sure it would have to be.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Prof John L. That particular thread was not me,albeit I have had several inputs in relation to Kerbweights/Towing & Caravan Matters in particular. I only have one ID on this forum as I understand that is a ruling. However I am on CaravanTalk as TheTravellingRooster which is the same ID as this forum. If you do not have a presence in that forum it might be worth a looking at!!. There is a lot to be said for it being a more entertaining forum than this one. It might be an interesting exercise to ask other forum users if they are members of the CaravanTalk and take a head-count. This might have to be cleared through the Moderator Team.

 

[Lutz]

One has to ask one self that with so many caravanning organisations across Europe, that if such a law was to be in the pipeline, then we would surely know about it, way before it even got off the drawing board and way before a "trainee" of VOSA ? could be talking about any such passing of EU law. Which i am pretty sure it would have to be.

Correct. Normally it would be the case that such an issue would first have to be agreed to on an EU-wide basis. But countries do have the freedom to deviate if they can provide evidence that specific local conditions warrant such measures. For a very long time the 2.3m versus 2.5m width issue was an example. Whether there would be a plausible reason here, I don't know, but I would rather suspect not.

 

[Steve L]

There are an awfull lot of people who don't understand what their car can legally tow and they are great fodder for sales people who to coin a fraze "( If you can't dazzle um with brilliance, baffle um with bull****)". Or even worse be like the dealer I got my Abbey from. He didn't either comment or check when I collected our van with a tow car that was capable of towing the van but it would have to be loaded 36Kgs lite.

I knew what I was doing and I have changed to a car that is now 164Kgs inside the tow limit for the car, with the caravan fully loaded.

It is real hard with some manufacturers to get a true tow capacity and unless you are vinplate, commercial vehicle and weigh bridge savy, you can easily get caught out.

There are three things we need before the towing capability can be regulated better.
1/ Manufacturers of vehicles to clearly sspecify what the tow capacity is of the tow car with a full tank of fuel is and then issue clear guidelines on how to read the weight plate for the vehicle.

2/ Caravan dealerships to have qualified people with clear health & safety designation to impartially advise the info at (1).

3/ Educate drivers from day one and make it part of a driving test to be able to demonstrate knowledge of the info on the VIN plate of your car. Also I would like to see refresher coarses for current drivers as the driving standards agencey (DSA) frequently change instruction to new pupils, and do not update current full license drivers of change!!
An example of which is back in 1976 when I took my driving test it was permissable to use the offside lane of a roundabout approach on a main road to go straight ahead as well as turn right. Now it is not the case and you now use the nearside lane only for left and straight ahead.
Just a foot note here but if you are training to become driving instructor and you tell your examiner (pupil) to "go straight on at the next roundabout" they will litterally do just that and wreck your suspension. That is typical of how clear and precise they want driving instructors to be when communicating. But as for updating current drivers the cogs have slipped off the brain box.

I wonder how many accidents have been caused by this lack of clear information?

 

[Lutz]

1/ Manufacturers of vehicles to clearly sspecify what the tow capacity is of the tow car with a full tank of fuel is and then issue clear guidelines on how to read the weight plate for the vehicle.

Maybe you could explain what a full tank of fuel has to do with the towing capacity. The towing capacity that the manufacturer specifies applies whether the tank is full or empty, also whether the car is laden or unladen, unless the specified gross train weight is less than the sum of the nominal towing capacity and the GVW.