New to Caravanning

[C6Exclusive]

Hi All,

I've towed a smaller van before and I'm now looking at buying another, but I'm after some practical advise:

Car:
2010 Citroen C5 Auto Tourer (160bhp)

Unladen Weight: 1642
Kerb Weight: 1717
Gross Vehicle Weight: 2286
Gross Train Weight: 3286

Caravan:
MRO 1385Kg
MTPLM 1594Kg

Is this legal? and how do I work it out?

 

[Firkle]

Hi All,

I've towed a smaller van before and I'm now looking at buying another, but I'm after some practical advise:

Car:
2010 Citroen C5 Auto Tourer (160bhp)

Unladen Weight: 1642
Kerb Weight: 1717
Gross Vehicle Weight: 2286
Gross Train Weight: 3286

Caravan:
MRO 1385Kg
MTPLM 1594Kg

Is this legal? and how do I work it out?

Your vehicle V5 document quotes the technical maximum permissable towable mass of the trailer and gives 2 figures, 1 for a braked and one for an unbraked trailer. The caravan MTPLM should not exceed the braked figure if you are to remain legal.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello C6...

Welcome to the forum.

Thank you for the detailed information, but sadly I have to say that your not going to be able to tow your caravan with the C5.

The key to this is the cars GTW which is a hard legal limit for the whole outfit. The total measured weight of of the outfit must not exceed the GTW figure.

If the car is loaded to its maximum (GVW) then difference between the GTW - GVW or 3286-2286 = in this case = 1000kg - and most car manufacturers use that value for the maximum towed braked weight limit. - but not all:-

You will need to check your cars specifications in the owners hand book to see if Citroen set a higher value. Some car manufacturers set a higher maximum braked trailer weight based on the GTW - Kerbweight which in your case might be 3286 - 1717 = 1389 But I do stress not all manufactures do this.

The trade off is that the combined measured weights of the car and caravan MUST NOT EXCEED the GTW of the tow vehicle.

In reality the car will not be at its kerb weight if you have anything more than just the driver. If you have any passengers or luggage, you have to reduce the weight of the trailer by the same amount.

Looking at your figures you have just 1389-1384(caravan MRO)=5kg and that before you load the car or caravan with anything other than the driver.

Just a couple of sleeping bags and you'll be over the cars GTW limit - so in practice its simply not possible to remain legal yet alone safe.

Sorry.

Just a note about this:-

The caravan MTPLM should not exceed the braked figure if you are to remain legal.

That is not actually the way the law works. But it is a safe way to help stay within the law.

 

[otherclive]

Vital that you look at your cars maximum towing specification. I looked at three cars in 2010 the Mondeo, C5 and XC70. I think that the Mondeo shared many aspects of its powertrain with the C5, but for some reason the C5 had a lower towing specification than did the Mondeo. That was a pity as the C5 was a really nice looking car and well specified. I bought the XC70 at the end.

Looking at your figures your gross train weight is well below the sum of GVW +MTPLM. which seems to rule out your chosen caravan. In fact your kerbweight plus MTPLM exceeds your GTW.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Your vehicle V5 document quotes the technical maximum permissable towable mass of the trailer and gives 2 figures, 1 for a braked and one for an unbraked trailer. The caravan MTPLM should not exceed the braked figure if you are to remain legal.

Just to clarify my comment above.

The MTPLM of a trailer is a paper limit not a measured weight. Importantly it represents the entire weight of a trailer not just the weight carried on the trailers axle.

The maximum braked weight limit for a tow vehicle only looks relates to the load carried on the trailers axle, it excludes the nose load, as that is carried by the tow vehicle.

The tow vehicle does not care what the trailers MTPLM is it only responds to the actual weight on the trailers axle - so in practice it is perfectly legal for a tow vehicle to be pulling a part loaded trailer with an MTPLM way above the vehicle's stated towed weight limit, provide the trailers actual axle load is within the tow vehicles capacity. For example it could be entirely legal for a smaller car to pull an empty horse box, becasue its measured weight falls within teh cars capability, but it might be illegal to tow the box with a horse loaded.

When it come to caravans, the same law applies but the practicalities of caravans are that the load margin is much smaller than for a horse box, and it is certainly safe to use the MTPLM as a guide figure, but its not the way the law actually considers the situation.

 

[Beachball]

Hi C6 Welcome to the forum

 

[C6Exclusive]

Thanks guys, that’s that plan out of the window, incidentally the numbers for the car are from the handbook.

The V5 says 1290, so that means I means I'll have to tow it with the C6 which has a Maximum Towable Mass of 1700Kg according to the V5, however, the Citroen technical specs say:

Kerb weight: 1871
Max Laden Weight 2335
Max towing braked 1400
max tow hitch download 70

 

[otherclive]

Thanks guys, that’s that plan out of the window, incidentally the numbers for the car are from the handbook.

The V5 says 1290, so that means I means I'll have to tow it with the C6 which has a Maximum Towable Mass of 1700Kg according to the V5, however, the Citroen technical specs say:

Kerb weight: 1871
Max Laden Weight 2335
Max towing braked 1400
max tow hitch download 70

You need to look at the plates on the C6 car given the difference between Max towing brakes of 1400 kg, and 1700 kg on V5. The plated weights on the car are the ones to go by. What do they say?

 

[otherclive]

You need to look at the plates on the C6 car given the difference between Max towing brakes of 1400 kg, and 1700 kg on V5. The plated weights on the car are the ones to go by. What do they say?

Some manufacturers actually said you reduced the weight in the trailer as you load up the car by an equivalent amount. So effectively your GTW stays constant.

 

[Jcloughie]

Hi All,

I've towed a smaller van before and I'm now looking at buying another, but I'm after some practical advise:

Car:
2010 Citroen C5 Auto Tourer (160bhp)

Unladen Weight: 1642
Kerb Weight: 1717
Gross Vehicle Weight: 2286
Gross Train Weight: 3286

Caravan:
MRO 1385Kg
MTPLM 1594Kg

Is this legal? and how do I work it out?

Could you check the GTW figure.

I used to tow up to 1500kg with a C5 with ease, but that was an older model. Things do change. But when I try to Google GTW for your car, I can only find Unladen, Kerb GVW and max braked trailer.

Model dependent the Maxed braked trailer can be up to 1850kg. Many tow with a C5, in fact here is a link to a similar question asked in 2011 in which the Prof also replied. But I guess that was before GTW were a thing to consider.

I would be surprised if the GTW restricts you to just 1000kg, That's why I am suggesting that you try to get this figure validated. V5's have been known to be wrong, there was a recent thread on that, also handbooks. One could have led to the other.

Here is a couple of links which show braked trailer weights, (but not the calculations). One two.

My link are not conclusive, but would be enough to make me question the basic figures.

John

 

[otherclive]

Hello C6...

Welcome to the forum.

Thank you for the detailed information, but sadly I have to say that your not going to be able to tow your caravan with the C5.

The key to this is the cars GTW which is a hard legal limit for the whole outfit. The total measured weight of of the outfit must not exceed the GTW figure.

If the car is loaded to its maximum (GVW) then difference between the GTW - GVW or 3286-2286 = in this case = 1000kg - and most car manufacturers use that value for the maximum towed braked weight limit. - but not all:-

You will need to check your cars specifications in the owners hand book to see if Citroen set a higher value. Some car manufacturers set a higher maximum braked trailer weight based on the GTW - Kerbweight which in your case might be 3286 - 1717 = 1389 But I do stress not all manufactures do this.

The trade off is that the combined measured weights of the car and caravan MUST NOT EXCEED the GTW of the tow vehicle.

In reality the car will not be at its kerb weight if you have anything more than just the driver. If you have any passengers or luggage, you have to reduce the weight of the trailer by the same amount.

Looking at your figures you have just 1389-1384(caravan MRO)=5kg and that before you load the car or caravan with anything other than the driver.

Just a couple of sleeping bags and you'll be over the cars GTW limit - so in practice its simply not possible to remain legal yet alone safe.

Sorry.

Just a note about this:-


That is not actually the way the law works. But it is a safe way to help stay within the law.

Wouldn’t it be better to stick to the basics and steer clear of load transfer from axle to car. Before you know it we will be on a long chain thread about whether it’s acceptable to take 70 kg off of MTPLM as it’s on the car. Etc etc. Whilst MTPLM has no bearing as far as the cars plates and V5 are concerned you yourself have been a strong advocate of considering it to have quasi-legal status conferred by the caravan manufacturers.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...Model dependent the Maxed braked trailer can be up to 1850kg. Many tow with a C5, in fact here is a link to a similar question asked in 2011 in which the Prof also replied. But I guess that was before GTW were a thing to consider....

John.
The GTW has always been a thing to consider. and as far as I can remember I have always based advice as that being the case, however it might depend on what information a poster provides, if somehow they have not correctly reported the data then the advice may come out differently.

GTW is and always has been the critical limit that applies to towing.

What is beyond doubt is that when the specification of a model is changed ( could be:- model year, body style, engine capacity, power, fuel type, and even trim level) there are more often than not changes to the towing capabilities.

When it comes to an individual cars weight limits the authorities will always take the data on the VIN plate above any other source as being the defining source.

 

[C6Exclusive]

the plate on the C6 reads

Gross Vehicle Weight. 2335Kg
Gross Train Weight. 3735Kg
Maximum Weight on Front Axle. 1-1350Kg
Maximum Weight on Rear Axle. 2-1050Kg

 

[ProfJohnL]

Wouldn’t it be better to stick to the basics and steer clear of load transfer from axle to car. Before you know it we will be on a long chain thread about whether it’s acceptable to take 70 kg off of MTPLM as it’s on the car. Etc etc. Whilst MTPLM has no bearing as far as the cars plates and V5 are concerned you yourself have been a strong advocate of considering it to have quasi-legal status conferred by the caravan manufacturers.

Hello Clive
In the reply to C6 that you quote I made no mention of nose load being carried by the car etc.

There was no need to becasue the the data showed the match would indeed be illegal under the slightest added load in car or caravan.

C6 asked how he should calculate it and I hope I showed him and explained how.

 

[otherclive]

Hello Clive
In the reply to C6 that you quote I made no mention of nose load being carried by the car etc.

There was no need to becasue the the data showed the match would indeed be illegal under the slightest added load in car or caravan.

C6 asked how he should calculate it and I hope I showed him and explained how.

Apologies I should have quoted your post #5 which did discuss axle load v noseload interplay.

 

[ProfJohnL]

the plate on the C6 reads

Gross Vehicle Weight. 2335Kg
Gross Train Weight. 3735Kg
Maximum Weight on Front Axle. 1-1350Kg
Maximum Weight on Rear Axle. 2-1050Kg

With these figures the GTW -GVW = 1400kg
The caravan you are considering has an MTPLM 1594 which is still 194kg bigger. and it also represent basically half the available payload of the caravan.

You would have to be very frugal indeed in how you load the caravan to keep the towed weight no bigger than 1400kg.

You do need to find what the C6's stated towed load limit is, which if its more than 1400 might just make it possible to legally tow, by ensuring the combined measured weight stay within the 3735 GTW limit for the car.

This new proposal may be possible, but its its incredibly marginal in terms of legality, and I can only guess at the traditional towing ratio but is probably in teh realms of not recommended.

 

[C6Exclusive]

Gentlemen,

THANK YOU

You've been a great help, I think I'll stick with the smaller 'van' for now, At least I know thats legal with both cars

 

[ProfJohnL]

Apologies I should have quoted your post #5 which did discuss axle load v noseload interplay.

In this case, Firkle stated

"The caravan MTPLM should not exceed the braked figure if you are to remain legal. "

This implies an MTPLM greater than the tow vehicles towed weight limit is illegal. and that is not necessarily the case. The criteria is the measured axle load (not the MTPLM) compared to the towed weight limit.

The MTPLM is a weight limit, not a measured weight, an important difference often miss understood.

 

[Buckman]

As a matter of interest do you have a B+E driving licence as the combination exceeds 3500kg?

 

[Jcloughie]

John.
The GTW has always been a thing to consider. and as far as I can remember I have always based advice as that being the case, however it might depend on what information a poster provides, if somehow they have not correctly reported the data then the advice may come out differently.

It makes excellent logic for the GTW to be a 'thing' which should always be considered. I wonder if, in the past, it has been overlooked in favour of simply attempting to achieve less than 85% of the GVW. Certainly, in times gone by that seems to be what 'advisors' concentrated on.

In the case of the link and your contribution. It's not a consideration you brought up tin 2011.

However, the only point I was trying to make, is, IF the GTW provided bey the OP was incorrect, for whatever reason, all subsequent calculations will be meaningless.

John

 

[otherclive]

It makes excellent logic for the GTW to be a 'thing' which should always be considered. I wonder if, in the past, it has been overlooked in favour of simply attempting to achieve less than 85% of the GVW. Certainly, in times gone by that seems to be what 'advisors' concentrated on.

In the case of the link and your contribution. It's not a consideration you brought up tin 2011.

However, the only point I was trying to make, is, IF the GTW provided bey the OP was incorrect, for whatever reason, all subsequent calculations will be meaningless.

John

It should be 85% of kerbweight not GVW.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It makes excellent logic for the GTW to be a 'thing' which should always be considered. I wonder if, in the past, it has been overlooked in favour of simply attempting to achieve less than 85% of the GVW. Certainly, in times gone by that seems to be what 'advisors' concentrated on.

In the case of the link and your contribution. It's not a consideration you brought up tin 2011.

However, the only point I was trying to make, is, IF the GTW provided bey the OP was incorrect, for whatever reason, all subsequent calculations will be meaningless.

John

2011 is s long time ago, and I had to re read the post you pointed to.

I can assure GTW wasn't being dismissed. It just wasn't mentioned in that comment.

 

[Beachball]

Gentlemen,

THANK YOU

You've been a great help, I think I'll stick with the smaller 'van' for now, At least I know thats legal with both cars

Hi C6 as a matter of interest what caravan do you tow at the present time to each its own

 

[Jcloughie]

It should be 85% of kerbweight not GVW.

Thanks,I stand corrected.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think that the Mondeo shared many aspects of its powertrain with the C5, but for some reason the C5 had a lower towing specification than did the Mondeo.

Clive I'm intrigued by this. Do you think the Mondeo and the C5 shared parts? I haven't been able to find any reference to parts sharing, lots of comments regarding them being competitors, Have I misunderstood your meaning?