Hi, this is my first post on this forum, so please bear with me. We bought a new Citroen C3 Picasso last September and chose the 1.2 'Puretech' turbo petrol engined version as we wanted to tow a small caravan and, unusually, the Citroen towing limit is higher for petrol C3 Picassos than for the diesel engined versions (1100kg vs 900kg). The caravan we have bought is a 2009 Bailey Ranger Series 6 GT60 380-2 with a MTPLM of 1058kg, well within our Picasso's limit. I am fairly experienced at towing (although haven't towed for about 15 years !) and having towed the new 'van for about 400 miles over 4 journeys, am happy and confident with the way it tows. However, something has been slightly bothering me about the noseweight limit of the Picasso, which is a frankly pathetic 36kg ! I've managed to get the 'van's noseweight down to this figure by having the front locker virtually empty apart from one 6kg gas bottle, but this seems rather drastic. I've now realised, from various online sources including this forum, that there is an EU directive stating that a trailer's noseweight must be no less than 25kg or 4% of the MPTLM, whichever is lower, i.e. 42.32 kg for our Ranger. So it would appear that I either stick with 36kg and break the EU law, or increase the noseweight to 42.32kg or higher, exceeding the car manufacturer's noseweight limit and invalidating my insurance, breaking UK laws. The car is having it's first service on Tuesday and I intend to broach the subject with the supplying dealer, but in the meantime I welcome comments, observations, advice, etc. from fellow caravanners. Thanks.
Nose Weight
- Thread starter M30bdg
- Start date
M30bdg said:
Hello M30bdg,
As far as I can recall, the EU regulation relates to the capability of the towbar on the tow vehicle, where its is expected to be able to carry as Static Vertical Load of 25Kg or 4% of the towed weight limit of the vehicle. Strictly the towed weight limit only relates to the mass towed by the vehicle, and does not include the actual nose load as that is carried by the tow vehicle not towed.
Based on the figures you have supplied if the C3's towed weight limit is 1100kg then the cars tow ball should be designed to accept 1100x4% = 44kg, But you tell us its actually limited to only 36kg, which working the other way suggests a maximum towed weight limit should only be 900Kg.
That seems to correlate to the Diesel C3 limit, and it makes me suspect the wrong tow bar has been fitted to the car, or the incorrect data plate attached to it.
What I actually suspect is there will be no physical difference between the Diesel and petrol Towbars, it will most likely be just the data plate, But to be legal you must not exceed the the nose load limit on the towbar, so you need to contact the tow bar fitters and get the right one fitted.
The other aspect of this is, Whilst it is generally true that you will maintain better stability with a larger nose load, there is no point in using more nose load than is necessary to maintain stability, What that value is is determined by each outfit and the way it is loaded, which is of course in reality unique to each trip.
You would have to try your own outfit to see if its good at only 36kg, It may be absolutely fine.
As you appear to be working very close to you tow balls nose load limit, you should pay particular attention to how you actually measure it. as the height of the coupling affects the measurement of nose load. So the actual nose load mesurment must be carried out at the same height from the grouns as when its coupled and ready to tow.
Fully load the car and caravan with people and luggage etc as if you are ready to start off. Pull up on level (horizontal) ground, Measure the height of the hitch.
Chock the caravans wheels front and back, (though it shouldn't run away as its on level ground) Do NOT put the handbrake on, and uncouple the car.
Position the hitch on the measurement scales and adjust the height of the scales (As a suggestion use a set of bathroom scales on the caravan step and pad the scales with magazines to set the height) so the hitch is at the measured height, make sure the steadies and the jockey wheel are off the ground, and read off the nose load.
Thanks Prof John, the 'S' value for the towbar itself is 54kg, so that's not a problem. The 36kg limit is Citroen's own !imit for the car. The Caravan & Motorhome Club information on noseweight infers that the EU directive (95/48) relates to a car's noseweight limit, rather than a towbar's, so strictly speaking, it seems that Citroen are quoting either an incorrect towing limit or an incorrect noseweight limit - it'll be interesting to hear what the dealer has to say !
M30bdg said:
Exactly where did you get the manufacturers nose load limit from? And from the cars data what are the two largest weight values stamped on it (Gross Train Weight and Gross Vehicle Weight)?
If the GTW -GVW x 0.04 is greater than Citroen's 36kg nose load limit, the car does not conform to the EU's type approval directive for towing.
The noseweight of 36kg is in the owners handbook, as recommended noseweight, so my initial questions will be concerning the implications of exceeding the 'recommended' noseweight. Your comment regarding EU type approval is spot on, and this is one of the key points of my concerns, along with the possibility that Citroen have manufactured and sold a vehicle that is not 'fit for purpose'.
One lives in hope that owners handbooks are correct and represent the model you have, but you will find somewhere in that publication a group of letters "E & O Excepted" ( Errors and Omissions Excepted) or something very similar which is basically a get of jail free for manufacturers. So claiming the handbook is inaccurate would not stand up in court.
Sometimes the necessary values are printed in the V5c registration document Have you checked it? If they are then those are the vehicle official specification.
Sometimes the necessary values are printed in the V5c registration document Have you checked it? If they are then those are the vehicle official specification.
The V5C confirms the 1100kg maximum towing weight, there is no noseweight indicated on the V5C, nor is there space for it. Whether or not the handbook is correct in stating 36kg is something of a moot point, as there is nothing to compare it to. I've now presented my figures to the dealership and their initial response is that a) they cannot explain the discrepancy, and b) they agree that I cannot legally tow my 1058kg caravan with the C3 Picasso.
So, at the moment, we cannot use the caravan unless and until we change the car. I am determined that we should not suffer financially because of an error from Citroen, so my next step will be to present my calculations for Citroen's contribution. I intend to include the actual cost to us of changing the car, the cost of the fitted towbar, the £80 spent on transferring a personalised registration, the additional fuel cost we have incurred by buying the petrol Picasso instead of the diesel, and an amount to compensate us for the stress, inconvenience and loss of use of the caravan. Next instalment to follow, hopefully shortly !
So, at the moment, we cannot use the caravan unless and until we change the car. I am determined that we should not suffer financially because of an error from Citroen, so my next step will be to present my calculations for Citroen's contribution. I intend to include the actual cost to us of changing the car, the cost of the fitted towbar, the £80 spent on transferring a personalised registration, the additional fuel cost we have incurred by buying the petrol Picasso instead of the diesel, and an amount to compensate us for the stress, inconvenience and loss of use of the caravan. Next instalment to follow, hopefully shortly !
I am surprised that the nose weight is a recommendation, as in most cases the manufacturer imposes an actual limit. It is illegal to exceed a stated maximum limit but a recommendation is not the same thing and on the face of it can be exceeded legally, as it looks to be an ideal figure, rather than the maximum. I cannot see how you could be prosecuted for exceeding a recommendation as it is not proof of the maximum figure but could cause problems if you were stopped. What you need from the manufacturer is evidence of what the maximum weight is if you can get it, as it might be something completely different and should fit in with the Profs assessment of the law on nose weights.
I visited the Citroen dealer yesterday & spoke to one of their managers, who tows a caravan, so is familiar with towing limits, noseweight, etc. (although, to be honest, he said he'd never checked his caravan's laden weight or noseweight & seemed to think a caravan's weight depends on the number of berths......) He did agree, however, that exceeding Citroen's recommended noseweight figure would indeed invalidate both Citroen's warranty & my car insurance. The current diesel C3 Picasso weights look correct, 900kg max & 36kg noseweight, so it looks like some bright spark @ Citroen has decided to increase the petrol version's max towing weight without increasing the noseweight. My issues have now been passed up to the Dealer Principal, who will hopefully deal with it when he gets back from his hols next week, although I'm not exactly holding my breath for a quick resolution. :dry:
With regards to M30bdg's visit to his Citroen Dealership and the manager not knowing the unladen weight of his caravan, begs the question of how many of us actually know the unladen weight of our vans.
I have never taken my van to a weighbridge, as the local one to me at the Bath/Stroud junction of the M4, does not accept caravans. I have always relied on the information I have been given on the plate below the door.
I trust Adria and I have had no concerns, that would justify verification by an independent body. I have checked the noseweight, but do not recheck on a regular basis.
regards,
I have never taken my van to a weighbridge, as the local one to me at the Bath/Stroud junction of the M4, does not accept caravans. I have always relied on the information I have been given on the plate below the door.
I trust Adria and I have had no concerns, that would justify verification by an independent body. I have checked the noseweight, but do not recheck on a regular basis.
regards,
Lappy said:
There's one near Chippenham at Allington and another on the Longleat estate which is for lighter vehicles not 40 tonne HGVs. The one on the M4 A46 junction is an official VOSA vehicle check point.
Lappy ,
There must be someone in your area that will be able to offer a car and caravan on a weighbridge the one beside us you just drive in and around press a button and drive your axles over the rollers slowly and it gives you your weights at the end, no need for unhooking the caravan and weighing separately , the one we use is also unmanned .
Craig .
There must be someone in your area that will be able to offer a car and caravan on a weighbridge the one beside us you just drive in and around press a button and drive your axles over the rollers slowly and it gives you your weights at the end, no need for unhooking the caravan and weighing separately , the one we use is also unmanned .
Craig .
Lappy said:
Whilst you may trust Adria, do you know what the `MRO includes as it is not the unladen weight of the caravan? Or does your caravan pre-date MRO? Also as most people choose caravans with a MRO, or Unladen Weight within the car's capability surely the weight that is key to your safety and legality is the laden weight. Seeing what some people arrive with on site I venture to suggest that there are a sizeable number of caravans on our roads that are overloaded. How do you know that your caravan is within its MTPLM when you are touring?
Lappy, my post referred to the manager not knowing the LADEN weight of his caravan, not the UNLADEN weight. The unladen weight is immaterial in terms of towing limits, it's the actual weight of the trailer being towed that matters, but you're right, a trip to a Weighbridge could be in order for him. Perhaps there's a lesson for all caravanners here, if you don't know the laden weight and noseweight of the caravan you're towing, and the towing limit and noseweight limit of the vehicle you're towing with, how do you know you're not breaking the law when you're towing ?
Otherclive, Thanks for the info about the weighbridge at Chippenham.
I have checked the MiRO stated in the owners manual and it's given as 1560kg The MTPLM is given as 1800kg
The MiRO figure on the plate is given as 1675kg but this I assume, includes the spare wheel, leisure battery and two 11kg gas bottles.
I will see how much they charge to use the weighbridge, but as I get around 17/18mpg towing this is not one of my priorities at present. Service due end of month around £230
Regards,
I have checked the MiRO stated in the owners manual and it's given as 1560kg The MTPLM is given as 1800kg
The MiRO figure on the plate is given as 1675kg but this I assume, includes the spare wheel, leisure battery and two 11kg gas bottles.
I will see how much they charge to use the weighbridge, but as I get around 17/18mpg towing this is not one of my priorities at present. Service due end of month around £230
Regards,
No call from the Dealer Principal on Monday or Tuesday, despite the Fleet Manager promising that I'd get a call on Monday ! I wonder if the dealership thinks I'll just forget about this & leave them alone if they ignore me ? Err, wake up, Evans Halshaw & Citroen, I am most definitely not giving this up without a fight !
Finally spoke to the DP late on Tuesday, but he, quite reasonably, doesn't understand all the intricacies of towing weights, although admitting that there is obviously an issue that needs resolving. Turns out a Citroen UK after-sales guy was due @ the dealership yesterday , but when the DP showed him my letter, he was stumped as well, so he's passing it on to a 'vehicle-specific manager' @ CUK. I've also emailed CUK directly, as suggested by the DP.
Reluctantly, I think we've pretty much decided that whatever happens, we will definitely be changing the C3 Picasso for something that will actually tow the Ranger legally. Although it's ideal as an everyday car, loads of space for passengers & luggage, easy to drive and lots of useful stuff like panoramic roof & parking sensors, the fuel economy is poor, about 41 mpg on a mix of about 40% urban, 20% country roads & 40% Motorways. We've lost all confidence in its ability to tow the 'van - even if CUK claim that it's a misprint, clerical error or whatever, there must be a genuine reason for them reducing the towing & noseweight limits for the 'new' engines. I'm not prepared to risk breaking the law or trying to prove that Citroen's published figures are wrong. Car search time, then, deep joy ! :S
Finally spoke to the DP late on Tuesday, but he, quite reasonably, doesn't understand all the intricacies of towing weights, although admitting that there is obviously an issue that needs resolving. Turns out a Citroen UK after-sales guy was due @ the dealership yesterday , but when the DP showed him my letter, he was stumped as well, so he's passing it on to a 'vehicle-specific manager' @ CUK. I've also emailed CUK directly, as suggested by the DP.
Reluctantly, I think we've pretty much decided that whatever happens, we will definitely be changing the C3 Picasso for something that will actually tow the Ranger legally. Although it's ideal as an everyday car, loads of space for passengers & luggage, easy to drive and lots of useful stuff like panoramic roof & parking sensors, the fuel economy is poor, about 41 mpg on a mix of about 40% urban, 20% country roads & 40% Motorways. We've lost all confidence in its ability to tow the 'van - even if CUK claim that it's a misprint, clerical error or whatever, there must be a genuine reason for them reducing the towing & noseweight limits for the 'new' engines. I'm not prepared to risk breaking the law or trying to prove that Citroen's published figures are wrong. Car search time, then, deep joy ! :S
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