I have picked up my van from the dealer after it's second service. Unlike last year, the service form has a box for the noseweight to be entered. This has been recorded as 105 Kg. I only found it after reading through the paperwork once I got home; the point here is that the tow car is only rated for 75 kg and the hitch at 100 kg. The van was almost empty on presentation for servicing so I would not have expected such a high reading. I would also have expected this to have been pointed out by the dealer before I left the premises so that something could have been done about it? Any suggestions as to how I could have put it right on the spot, please?
Noseweights - help!
- Thread starter harryw
- Start date
I would imagine that if the caravan was presented almost empty at time of service,the figure of 105kg would have been the maximum noseweight allowed for your caravan?
I weighed my noseweight yesterday where the caravan was fully loaded ready for holidays,and the figure was 93kg.
Hopefully,someone will be able to help further.
Adrian
I weighed my noseweight yesterday where the caravan was fully loaded ready for holidays,and the figure was 93kg.
Hopefully,someone will be able to help further.
Adrian
The recorded figure was the actual figure although this may already be greater than allowable for both car and caravan. Note that the lower of the two applies. Typically, many cars have a 75kg limit and most caravans a 100kg limit. If the actual value is higher then you will have to trim the load in the caravan so that neither is exceeded.
Just to put a little more meat onto Lutz reply, Nose loads are never fixed, they are always variable, and they depend on how you load the caravan.
If you empty your caravan for servicing, and the resultant nose load is to great then as Lutz says you need to trim it.
Frequently people have more than the gas bottles in the bottle locker, EHU, chocks, steadies handle etc, all these things add load to the hitch, so simply taking them out will reduce the nose load, and of you put them in a rear locker of the caravan they will further reduce the nose load. - even take out the spare bottle - but never use it for ballast inside the caravan.
Another trick is to use you water barrel, which can have water added or taken away to help trim the nose load. with care it can be loaded towards the rear of the caravan to give it the maximum advantage.
The relatively small amounts of ballast needed to reduce a wayward nose load should not upset the caravan's towing characteristics. If it does, then I venture to suggest the car and caravan are not a good match anyway.
If you empty your caravan for servicing, and the resultant nose load is to great then as Lutz says you need to trim it.
Frequently people have more than the gas bottles in the bottle locker, EHU, chocks, steadies handle etc, all these things add load to the hitch, so simply taking them out will reduce the nose load, and of you put them in a rear locker of the caravan they will further reduce the nose load. - even take out the spare bottle - but never use it for ballast inside the caravan.
Another trick is to use you water barrel, which can have water added or taken away to help trim the nose load. with care it can be loaded towards the rear of the caravan to give it the maximum advantage.
The relatively small amounts of ballast needed to reduce a wayward nose load should not upset the caravan's towing characteristics. If it does, then I venture to suggest the car and caravan are not a good match anyway.
All, sorry for the delayed reply & many thanks for the replies. After some experimentation, I found that removing the jack and four ramps from the front locker (no gas cylinders - they are in a side locker over the axle) and two awning peg bags and the Alko wheel lock from under one of the front sofa/beds the nose weight returned towards normal with these items stowed towards the rear of the van. A total of around 15 kg moved from the front to the back of the van!
This is something that could have been done before moving the van from the workshop after the service, had they highlighted this issue having found it. I'm somewhat concerned that I was able to take the outfit out on the road with the vans noseweight exceeding the limit of 100 kg on the Alko hitch, never mind the 75 Kg on the tow car. I realise that they would not have necessarily known about the tow car situation, but surely, allowing the van on the road in this state puts the insurance on both the car and the caravan at risk in the case of an accident?
This is something that could have been done before moving the van from the workshop after the service, had they highlighted this issue having found it. I'm somewhat concerned that I was able to take the outfit out on the road with the vans noseweight exceeding the limit of 100 kg on the Alko hitch, never mind the 75 Kg on the tow car. I realise that they would not have necessarily known about the tow car situation, but surely, allowing the van on the road in this state puts the insurance on both the car and the caravan at risk in the case of an accident?
You are correct, but it is always the owner's responsibility to ensure that the noseweight is within the set limits. The dealer can advise, but he has no control over actual conditions.
Its your responsibility to check the nose weight before towing.
Am i correct in assuming you towed it to service with excess nose load?
Am i correct in assuming you towed it to service with excess nose load?
I personally would not advocate the use of a water barrel to trim nose weight, IMO it could cause instability under braking, cornering etc, or could cause the barrel to overturn and cause damage to the inside of the van.
Allan.
Allan.
Hi HarryW,
It is always the drivers responsibility to ensure that their car/outfit is safe and road legal for every journey.
Hello cookieones,
You concern applies equally to any items loaded in to a caravan. Because I hoped it was obvoius that all items loaded should be properly secured to prevent movement I did not mention it.
As for possible instability,I covered that under my statement:-
"The relatively small amounts of ballast needed to reduce a wayward nose load should not upset the caravan's towing characteristics. If it does, then I venture to suggest the car and caravan are not a good match anyway."
In the OP's situation, the caravan is devoid of most items, thus it will be well below its MTPLM, so any necessary ballast should be well within the cart/caravans safe operating area with regards to instability.
Correct loading is of course essential, but ballast in appropriate amounts should not cause instability.
It is always the drivers responsibility to ensure that their car/outfit is safe and road legal for every journey.
Hello cookieones,
You concern applies equally to any items loaded in to a caravan. Because I hoped it was obvoius that all items loaded should be properly secured to prevent movement I did not mention it.
As for possible instability,I covered that under my statement:-
"The relatively small amounts of ballast needed to reduce a wayward nose load should not upset the caravan's towing characteristics. If it does, then I venture to suggest the car and caravan are not a good match anyway."
In the OP's situation, the caravan is devoid of most items, thus it will be well below its MTPLM, so any necessary ballast should be well within the cart/caravans safe operating area with regards to instability.
Correct loading is of course essential, but ballast in appropriate amounts should not cause instability.
Sorry John I cant agree with you on this one (most unusual) there is no way I would use water in a barrel secured or otherwise to achieve correct nose weight. Even a stable outfit can have a sway induced by cross winds, the passing of coaches etc, then once that motion is initiated you will then have an un specified amount of water in your barrel adding to that motion, not ideal, and if the driver had to take evasive action, heavy braking, sharp swerve, and the barrel breaks free with the driver unaware, you could end up with untold damage to the interior of your caravan. Remember water in an un baffled barrel is unstable.
No I will stick with my awning and other non cylindrical objects to ballast my caravan safe in the knowledge that under severe conditions they are not likely to go walkabout.
You will also find in the owners Manuel the advice : always ensure water tanks are empty before towing.
Allan.
No I will stick with my awning and other non cylindrical objects to ballast my caravan safe in the knowledge that under severe conditions they are not likely to go walkabout.
You will also find in the owners Manuel the advice : always ensure water tanks are empty before towing.
Allan.
Hello Allan,
You are of couse entitled to your own views on the subject, and its fine if you can trim your caravan that way great. The water baerrel is last resort when other masses or loads are not enough to compensate, and in fairmess the volume of water has never had to exceed about 15L.
Yes that is a substantial mass if loose, but properely secured with straps so it can't move, its no worse than any other item of similar mass such as an awning or its poles.
As for the slosh, its a small container so it can't slosh far, and its mass in relation to the whole of the caravan is still very small, so its dynamic effect on the stability of a caravan should not be very much, and I stress that if a caravan is that touchy then its probably already not a good match.
The general instruction to empty water continners is mainly to minimise towed weights. Some inboard tanks go crossways and they can allow freedom for water to slosh over a modest distance. The Carver Cascade 2 didn't like having water left in the tank when moving over rough ground, the mass of the water could work the tank joint leading to failure.
So in the absence of other ballast I will still use and suggest water to counteract nose loads especially when the caravan is devoid of other luggage such as when tacking and collecting from service depots.
You are of couse entitled to your own views on the subject, and its fine if you can trim your caravan that way great. The water baerrel is last resort when other masses or loads are not enough to compensate, and in fairmess the volume of water has never had to exceed about 15L.
Yes that is a substantial mass if loose, but properely secured with straps so it can't move, its no worse than any other item of similar mass such as an awning or its poles.
As for the slosh, its a small container so it can't slosh far, and its mass in relation to the whole of the caravan is still very small, so its dynamic effect on the stability of a caravan should not be very much, and I stress that if a caravan is that touchy then its probably already not a good match.
The general instruction to empty water continners is mainly to minimise towed weights. Some inboard tanks go crossways and they can allow freedom for water to slosh over a modest distance. The Carver Cascade 2 didn't like having water left in the tank when moving over rough ground, the mass of the water could work the tank joint leading to failure.
So in the absence of other ballast I will still use and suggest water to counteract nose loads especially when the caravan is devoid of other luggage such as when tacking and collecting from service depots.
Hi John, in the OP case he was 30 kg over his legally allowed hitch weight of 75 kg, so in theory he would then need to carry 30 litres of water rear wards of the axle to bring it back in to tolerance, in my opinion that is a lot of unstable ballast moving around in a barrel, and in the case of my California there is no suitable anchoring points to secure a barrel of the dimensions of an aqua roll etc securely, the maximum amount I would be comfortable with would be 5 litres in a container designed for that capacity.
Allan.
Allan.
If not restrained in any way, even a 5 litre container can do a lot of damage. However, if properly anchored, there is no reason why a barrel filled with 30litres of water should not be safe. My caravan has a 40 litre fixed water tank just behind the axle and I regularly tow with that full. It is secured to the floor by relatively substantial bolts.
Hello again Allan,
I stand by my method, used on several occasions by my self and passed on successfully to others.
I share your concerns about instability but the additional momentum of the water in the barrel is very small in comparison to whole caravan. And again I stress that if an empty caravan were to be unduly stressed by a 32Kg mass at the rear, then there would be cause for concern about the outfit even without the additional ballast.
Of course it has to be done with due care, and it is a last resort when other normal ballast items are unavailable.
Now specifically for Harry's situation, if you read his last reply, he admits there were none gas items in the gas bottle locker and by removing them the nose load was reduced - no surprise. Consequently if he were to use my method he would not need 30kg as you suggest.
However, containers like an Aquaroll are available in two sizes, I have only ever used the small 29L version typically If it were full, there would be no slop, so again provided it is secured as I have done in the past, there is no more danger from it than any other heavy item in the caravan.
As for securing the barrel, I have used different methods depending on the particular caravan in question, ranging from providing anchorage points for webbing straps to being braced in the toilet compartment or in bedding locker, and finally retained by awnings and poles in the rear foot well.
It is a valid method, but it is a personal matter if you or others wish to use it or not.
I stand by my method, used on several occasions by my self and passed on successfully to others.
I share your concerns about instability but the additional momentum of the water in the barrel is very small in comparison to whole caravan. And again I stress that if an empty caravan were to be unduly stressed by a 32Kg mass at the rear, then there would be cause for concern about the outfit even without the additional ballast.
Of course it has to be done with due care, and it is a last resort when other normal ballast items are unavailable.
Now specifically for Harry's situation, if you read his last reply, he admits there were none gas items in the gas bottle locker and by removing them the nose load was reduced - no surprise. Consequently if he were to use my method he would not need 30kg as you suggest.
However, containers like an Aquaroll are available in two sizes, I have only ever used the small 29L version typically If it were full, there would be no slop, so again provided it is secured as I have done in the past, there is no more danger from it than any other heavy item in the caravan.
As for securing the barrel, I have used different methods depending on the particular caravan in question, ranging from providing anchorage points for webbing straps to being braced in the toilet compartment or in bedding locker, and finally retained by awnings and poles in the rear foot well.
It is a valid method, but it is a personal matter if you or others wish to use it or not.
Quite agree with you John it is a valid method, if you are 100% certain that it is not going to move, and in the case of the 29 litre aqua roll there would be little movement, (do not think they still produce the 29ltr model) but in the case of my California there is no suitable anchoring points, or no way of adding any due to the construction of the van. Like Lutz I also have an inboard tank, and unlike his where they have used bolts to secure it, mine has self tapers in to a sandwich construction floor, next to useless, hence I never travel with water on-board.
In the case of the Germans I think you will find it is a case of belt and braces, and we could do with following there lead, I am in the print trade and have been for many years, a lot of our paper reels usually around 1500/1800kilos each are delivered by German truckers, and are loaded on to the bed of the trailer unsecured or they used to be until they had one overturn, now each reel is secured to the trailer bed with ratchet straps and timber corners, now I'm not sure if this is true and I am sure Lutz will be able to advise, the Germans reckon you should be able to turn the trailer upside down and the load should still be secure!
Allan.
In the case of the Germans I think you will find it is a case of belt and braces, and we could do with following there lead, I am in the print trade and have been for many years, a lot of our paper reels usually around 1500/1800kilos each are delivered by German truckers, and are loaded on to the bed of the trailer unsecured or they used to be until they had one overturn, now each reel is secured to the trailer bed with ratchet straps and timber corners, now I'm not sure if this is true and I am sure Lutz will be able to advise, the Germans reckon you should be able to turn the trailer upside down and the load should still be secure!
Allan.
Yes, of course the load should remain on the vehicle even it were to overturn. Just imagine what could happen if a 1500kg roll were to go its own way and mow down a couple of pedestrians some distance from the scene of the accident and who would otherwise not be involved.
And of course we have to look at the economics of carrying an extra 30/40 kilos of weight in this day and age when fuel is so expensive, for a commodity that is readily available when we reach our destination, I always try and trim any unnecessary weight down to a minimum, including where possible buying our food once we reach our chosen site.
Allan.
Allan.
what i do now to get down to my 75kg ball weight is to shift the centre chest back to the axle witha non slip mat underneath and wedged in with pillows to prevent any possible damage job done hope this helps
these methods to decrease nose weight are all very well ,If you have enough available load capacity. I have to load all heavy items in my car as with 1 light gas cylinder,mover,battery,& day to day items such as cooking utensils, cutlery,water,& waste containers ect,ect I am left with less than 45kg for clothes food ect required fo a holiday+ I have a 75kg max nose load on my car.I struggle to get down to this & certainly do not have enough load allowance to waste on barrels of water.
all these method to reduce nose weight should not be required IF THE MANUFACTORER had properly designed the caravan in the 1st place. I think to design & produce a caravan with a MIRO nose weight in excess of the supplied ALKO hitch is irresponsable .
A more common sense design would take account of the normal load of 2 gas bottles.& battery & in some models the spare wheel
& produce a van with a reasonable noseweight
all these method to reduce nose weight should not be required IF THE MANUFACTORER had properly designed the caravan in the 1st place. I think to design & produce a caravan with a MIRO nose weight in excess of the supplied ALKO hitch is irresponsable .
A more common sense design would take account of the normal load of 2 gas bottles.& battery & in some models the spare wheel
& produce a van with a reasonable noseweight
Too true, TD42, but if you are having difficulty in staying within your weight allowance, the caravan manufacturer has also failed to design a caravan with an appropriate payload. A family caravan with a payload allowance of much under 250kg is plainly disregarding the needs of the customer. But within such a margin it should be possible to jiggle around with the load distribution enough to achieve an acceptable noseweight.
Hello TD42
My methods of reducing nose load are not an endorsement of the caravan manufactures designs, and as I have been at pains to point out it is a method to consider when other payload items are not available to achieve the desired nose load for example when towing the caravan for service or sale. So for most people it will not be an issue of using up pay load capacity or encroaching on MTPLM.
I agree the manufacture might be able to give greater consideration to the loading and nose load issues, and that is a question that should be put to them. However in their defence, they do not supply the battery or gas bottles and individuals will have their own preferences for which size and type of bottles. So the manufacture will still be playing a guessing game at what items the customers will be using.
The other factors the manufactures don't know is the height of the tow ball, which as we know does make a difference to the actual nose load applied to a car.
These are all detail differences that can add up to become a more significant issue, but it will be different for each caravanner and also different for each journey.
My methods of reducing nose load are not an endorsement of the caravan manufactures designs, and as I have been at pains to point out it is a method to consider when other payload items are not available to achieve the desired nose load for example when towing the caravan for service or sale. So for most people it will not be an issue of using up pay load capacity or encroaching on MTPLM.
I agree the manufacture might be able to give greater consideration to the loading and nose load issues, and that is a question that should be put to them. However in their defence, they do not supply the battery or gas bottles and individuals will have their own preferences for which size and type of bottles. So the manufacture will still be playing a guessing game at what items the customers will be using.
The other factors the manufactures don't know is the height of the tow ball, which as we know does make a difference to the actual nose load applied to a car.
These are all detail differences that can add up to become a more significant issue, but it will be different for each caravanner and also different for each journey.
In fairness, although the actual height of the towball does affect the noseweight, so long as it is within the limits prescribed by the EU Directive, the variance should not be as great as what some people are finding with their respective caravan. It is difficult to imagine that it could account for a noseweight of over 100kg if the towball height is within spec.Prof John L said:
The nose weight should varied to find the optimum for towing dependant upon the actual laden weight of the caravan, the nose weight should be approximately 7% of the actual laden weight, normally between 50 and 100 kg.
A simple method to measure nose weight is to use your bathroom scales and a strong piece of timber to rest the hitch on, the timber should be placed vertically between the hitch and the bathroom scales, make sure that the length of timber should be of such a length that when the caravan is lowered on to the scales, the caravan floor is horizontal.
It is also important that the towing vehicles rear suspension is not deflected to much by the nose weight on the tow ball, if it is excessive the steering and stability will be affected, and also at night your headlights are likely to dazzle other drivers which is illegal. The greater the towing vehicles tail overhang, the greater the effect the nose weight will have on the towing vehicles rear suspension, stiffening of the suspension may be necessary.
It is important to ensure that the caravan is towed either level or slightly nose down, if not then your tow bar might be at the wrong height.
A simple method to measure nose weight is to use your bathroom scales and a strong piece of timber to rest the hitch on, the timber should be placed vertically between the hitch and the bathroom scales, make sure that the length of timber should be of such a length that when the caravan is lowered on to the scales, the caravan floor is horizontal.
It is also important that the towing vehicles rear suspension is not deflected to much by the nose weight on the tow ball, if it is excessive the steering and stability will be affected, and also at night your headlights are likely to dazzle other drivers which is illegal. The greater the towing vehicles tail overhang, the greater the effect the nose weight will have on the towing vehicles rear suspension, stiffening of the suspension may be necessary.
It is important to ensure that the caravan is towed either level or slightly nose down, if not then your tow bar might be at the wrong height.
There is an error in each of the statements in Cookieone's reply above.
Firstly, the 7% formula is purely arbitrary and has never been verified as the optimum. Besides, if one were to attempt to achieve the 7%, an average towcar with a 75kg limit would not even be able to tow an 1100kg caravan.
Secondly, the caravan should not be horizontal when measuring noseweight, but it should be standing on level ground and with the coupling at the same height as if it were hitched to the car.
Thirdly, because the noseweight is part of the car's payload and this must be within the car manufacturer's specified GVW and rear axle load limits, the noseweight should not require any more stiffening of the car's suspension than if the car was solo and the boot fully laden.
Fourthly, even if the towbar is at the correct height within the prescribed tolerances, the caravan could, under certain conditions, have a slight nose up attitude.
Firstly, the 7% formula is purely arbitrary and has never been verified as the optimum. Besides, if one were to attempt to achieve the 7%, an average towcar with a 75kg limit would not even be able to tow an 1100kg caravan.
Secondly, the caravan should not be horizontal when measuring noseweight, but it should be standing on level ground and with the coupling at the same height as if it were hitched to the car.
Thirdly, because the noseweight is part of the car's payload and this must be within the car manufacturer's specified GVW and rear axle load limits, the noseweight should not require any more stiffening of the car's suspension than if the car was solo and the boot fully laden.
Fourthly, even if the towbar is at the correct height within the prescribed tolerances, the caravan could, under certain conditions, have a slight nose up attitude.
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