Olympus 534 Noseweight BEWARE

[RogerB]

We bought our Olympus 534 last week.The dealer fitted our battery and single gas bottle.There was very little else in the van.We towed it home - 120 miles and today I have checked the noseweight before I loaded it. 120 kg!!!!!!!!!

2 points.

The dealer was totally irresponsible in not checking it or at least pointing out to me that it would be well over the 80kg limit of my towbar -- he obviously was aware of it.Downright dangerous and bordering on the criminally negligent I think.

Bailey as a company have a deadful attitude towards their customers.They dismiss any issues ans couldn't care less.

To achieve the 80kg noseweight I have put everything - I mean everything - in the back of the van.This is something I have always avoided due to the stability issues but I have no choice.The front of the caravan is totally empty - I mean really empty.Thank God I did not opt for the central chest.

This is a shameful situation and Bailey are irresponsible for designing and producing a caravan that must be loaded like this.

Also Olympus owners look at the RH window catch of the front RH window.Its upside down.The correct one is not available as a stand alone handle ans Bailey are two mean to fit a stay which is available in the correct hand.

Don't defend Bailey.Their attitude STINKS.

 

[seth1]

This has been raised before,i would think its your responceability to check the nose wieght as your responceable of the vehicle.But yes seems Bailey do have problems,one reason i'd never look at one respectfully.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Roger,

I will not stand by and let an unfair criticism be made. I have no connection with Bailey, I don't even have one of their caravans.

As Seth implies it is the drivers responsibility to check all things on the outfit are safe and within limits before they drive - no one else. Don't blame your failure to do the necessary checks on someone else.

Whilst I agree that ex-works nose weights of baileys does seem high, Bailey will openly tell anyone who asks what they are. Its not hidden, nor secretive Bailey are one company who will tell you where as some other won't or can't.

How do you know the dealer knew the hitch load was too great? If you know that he knew, then you must have also known! (no tongue twister intended)

Even if the dealer did know, they are not obliged to tell for the reason in the second paragraph, though morally I think they should remind new owners to check nose loads for compatibility with their tow cars.

Bailey do not own the dealerships, so they have no direct control over how their dealers operate. Dealers have access to all the details about the caravans they sell, if they are not passing them on to customers then that is not Bailies direct responsibility Your complaint should be directed to the dealer.

By all means inform bailey of the dealers shortcomings, but its not Bailey's responsibility.

 

[xtrailman]

Roger

I agree the dealer should have ensured your rig was safe to be taken onto the road, at the very least by pointing out that your tow car was not suitable to tow, with out first checking and adjusting the nose weight.

The dealer has an obligation to the public to ensure safety, to allow a unsafe rig onto the public roads cannot be defended.

The truth is MANY people that tow never check the nose weight, nor their tyres!

Obviously people who read forums like this do, but many rigs can be seen on the roads, that are obviously suspect!

The reason i believe bailey "hide" the ex works nose weights, is because joe public may not fully understand the concept of ballast adjustment, and on checking the weights would be put off buying a caravan that is apparently nose heavy.

For the novice entering the world of caravanning towing is very daunting.

Obviously an experienced caravaner should have enough knowledge to understand that he/she should first check that their rig is safe to take to the road, i have always taken water containers for ballast, along with a nose weight gauge, whenever i have collected a new caravan.

So in conclusion, both dealer and purchaser should first check that the rig is safe and legal, but if a purchaser is a newbie, then the dealer in my opinion, should be held responsible.

 

[Rita1]

If you are that critical of "Bailey" Roger why did you buy a bailey Caravan

And surely you should have noticed the window catch when you looked at caravan

As for the dealer being irresponsible i think it was you as its your car

And i agree the nose weight is your responsiblity they would have checked for you if you had asked

 

[HenryB1]

The Caravan Club have some very useful information, in the form of leaflets that you can down load,regarding choosing a caravan and ensuring that you new caravan is a suitable match for your tow car. On the question of nose weights they recommend a nose weight of 7% of the the caravans MTPLM (loaded weight). The specification for your Olympus 534 shows an MTPLM of 1458kg. This would imply that the van should be towed with a nose weight of around 100kg, 20 kg above the limit for your car. You should have checked this before deciding to buy a van that requires a higher nose weight than your car can support. There are plenty of vehicles around that can take nose weights of 100kg plus. Did you ask the dealer to check that your car was suitable. If not don't blame them or Bailey.

 

[BillD.]

I suspect (but can't be certain) that this is fairly common on new vans these days. I bought a new Swift (and not a large van)having had an old van previously and was shocked when I measured the nose weight (empty as ex-works)it was way over my 85kg car limit. With a bit of juggling I manage to keep it down to about the right figure. I say about deliberately, it does vary according to your measuring method, my nose weight gauge and bathroom scales varied by about 5 kg and having 'calibrated' the bathroom scales with a known weight I think they are more accurate than my gauge (which reads high) I have gradually improved things by changing to calor-lite cylinders etc. I admit this did catch me out, it was not something I was expecting.

Bill D.

 

[Lutz]

The 7% formula really has no significance today. It originated at a time when caravans were generally lighter and the manufacturers didn't quote technical limits. There is no reason why a 1458kg caravan really needs anything more than the standard 75kg. My car has a 2000kg towload limit but the noseweight has an 80kg maximum.

 

[RogerB]

If you are that critical of "Bailey" Roger why did you buy a bailey Caravan

And surely you should have noticed the window catch when you looked at caravan

As for the dealer being irresponsible i think it was you as its your car

And i agree the nose weight is your responsiblity they would have checked for you if you had asked

Thanks for your contribution.If you have ever bought a new van you will be aware that you are not encouraged to spend hours checking every detail at the dealers.It is only later that you become aware of more of the quirks and faults.That is when you contact the dealer.

The most annoying thing is that bailey know about the fitted handle looking rediculous - thats why they changed it for the benefit of the brochure photos.That is underhanded in my opinion.

You asked why I bought a Bailey. My previous van was a new Senator which we loved and we really like the Olympus also.

That does not mean that we are not entitled to point out faults to anybody who might be helped by our comments and maybe - just maybe -Bailey may get the message.

The Senator was almost identical in terms of size and MTLPM and it was very easy to get the noseweight right so the designers seem to have taken a backward step.Again,I hope my comments will help ant other prospective owners make a more informed decision.Research has shown that most towcars ,with the exception of 4x4s have a noseweight max of around 80kg.

It is totally against all sensible loading practice to have to load the rear of a caravan to achieve an acceptable noseweight.

The implications for yaw inertia are not good.

I wonder is this why they now fit the Alko stability control system.I have never needed this in 20 years of correct loading!

More discussion folks?

 

[Moth_5041363]

I tow a swift van and struggle with nose wieght, I have to put the awning in the rear of the van to keep the balance right.

 

[Philspadders]

i tow a charsima 565 and in standard layout,with the van empty except for 85amh batt and a 6kg propane cylinder stored in the gas locker the nose weight ,measured at the correct height was a bit of a shocker.

with a lot of re jigging of normal load we carry i got it to 80kg,within 7kg of my towcars max weight. I know have to tow with all clothes in boxes in the car.or if i take the awning ,this goes in the car and the clothes boxes go towards the rear of the van.

The real issue is at the design stage where manufacturers opt for a conformist layout that in most circumstance coouldnever reach the tow weight limit of the towing vehicle.

If your dealer was aware of the nose weight and allowed an unsafe unit on to the roads,and there was a subsequent accident,the question to the dealer would be " knowing that the nose weight was too high why did you allow the driver take to the road".

The dealer has a duty of care and could be held culpable in these situations.

Perhaps the dealer did know but kept quiet,after all,with out documentary evidence you would have a hell of time arguing that the dealer did know.

 

[Mel]

I agree with Phil. As I have posted on here before, our Swift is nose heavy when empty. The dealer who sold it to us would have known this. He showed us how it all worked and hitched it up for us and was also well aware that we had never owned nor towed before, and yet said not a thing. We then towed a probably illegal unit down the motorway. If it had gone horribly wrong, it would have been us not the dealer who was liable though! Yes, I should have done more homework and checked the noseweight but as there was nothing in the van I was ignorant of the potential for nose heaviness. Dealers should be given greater responsibilty for ensuring that buyers are at least informed that the dealer has just attached an illegally nose heavy van to the towball of the car.

mel

 

[Mel]

Out of interest, I wonder if Read Caravans can tell us how they operate in this scenario. They always seem quite sensible. What should we expect of a dealer?

mel

 

[Hamer_5041128]

Roger,

I have bought several new caravans from my dealer and have always been given as much time as it takes to check the caravan over, either at the time of purchase or at the handover procedure. A correct handover procedure should show you how to set the caravan up, as if on site, and show that everything works, gas, water and electric.Also hitching up.

However sometimes the purchaser thinks he knows better and is only too intent to hitch up and drive away.The dealer then gets blamed for not doing his job correctly.

Many caravans, when collected from the dealers are nose heavy, due to the gas bottles and battery being forward of the axle. However when loaded the noseweight is fine. Our Swift Conqueror 655 is a prime example.Once the rear wardrobes are filled, the loo primed and the usual things placed under the twin beds, the noseweight is spot on 90-95kgs. After being caught out the first time with a very heavy noseweight, we now take the awning and poles to act as balast to correct the noseweght.

Hamer

 

[RogerB]

Hello Roger,

I will not stand by and let an unfair criticism be made. I have no connection with Bailey, I don't even have one of their caravans.

As Seth implies it is the drivers responsibility to check all things on the outfit are safe and within limits before they drive - no one else. Don't blame your failure to do the necessary checks on someone else.

Whilst I agree that ex-works nose weights of baileys does seem high, Bailey will openly tell anyone who asks what they are. Its not hidden, nor secretive Bailey are one company who will tell you where as some other won't or can't.

How do you know the dealer knew the hitch load was too great? If you know that he knew, then you must have also known! (no tongue twister intended)

Even if the dealer did know, they are not obliged to tell for the reason in the second paragraph, though morally I think they should remind new owners to check nose loads for compatibility with their tow cars.

Bailey do not own the dealerships, so they have no direct control over how their dealers operate. Dealers have access to all the details about the caravans they sell, if they are not passing them on to customers then that is not Bailies direct responsibility Your complaint should be directed to the dealer.

By all means inform bailey of the dealers shortcomings, but its not Bailey's responsibility.

Hi John The dealer in question sells hundreds of Bailey models each year - one of the biggest in the UK.It is perfectly reasonable to say that he would know the likely noseweight with just the single gas bottle and battery ( that he fitted ) on board.

He gave no advice and did not even question me about noseweights.He knew that we were picking up the van to tow 120 miles home and could see that we had no effects to counterbalance the van.He watched us drive off.

Whilst I accept that noseweight is my responsibility ,I reiterate my statement that he was irresponsible.

 

[BillD.]

Responsibility under normal use must of course belong to the owner/driver but it is an interesting question as to who may be responsible in the event of an accident when you tow away the van from the dealers (or manufacturers) In my case it was only a few miles on low speed roads but could easily be a long journey under more testing conditions. Would the purchaser be expected to have nose weight gauge and ballast with him when collecting a new van? I guess it is one of those things that are only answered when tested in court.

Bill D.

 

[RogerB]

Roger,

I have bought several new caravans from my dealer and have always been given as much time as it takes to check the caravan over, either at the time of purchase or at the handover procedure. A correct handover procedure should show you how to set the caravan up, as if on site, and show that everything works, gas, water and electric.Also hitching up.

However sometimes the purchaser thinks he knows better and is only too intent to hitch up and drive away.The dealer then gets blamed for not doing his job correctly.

Many caravans, when collected from the dealers are nose heavy, due to the gas bottles and battery being forward of the axle. However when loaded the noseweight is fine. Our Swift Conqueror 655 is a prime example.Once the rear wardrobes are filled, the loo primed and the usual things placed under the twin beds, the noseweight is spot on 90-95kgs. After being caught out the first time with a very heavy noseweight, we now take the awning and poles to act as balast to correct the noseweght.

Hamer

Seems to totally contradict accepted practice of not positioning heavy objects at the rear of the caravan where,due to their inertia,they are likely to cause problems with stability.Common sense and Physics dictate that heavy objects should be placed over , or near to the axle.

 

[Mikey1]

You said in the towcar thread that the car/van towed like a dream?

 

[Lutz]

Although strictly true that one would be illegal if exceeding the noseweight limit, I doubt whether the police or anyone else would have cause to check noseweight unless it was obvious by just looking at the outfit that it or the car's rear axle load were way too high. In most cases, when picking up a new caravan from the dealer one would not have that much in the boot of the car, so the noseweight would probably have to be about double the allowance to be noticeable.

The noseweight limit is a measure of the structural integrity of the car and the towbar and takes into account all road conditions likely to be encountered in use, including potholed and unsurfaced roads. Exceeding the limit by, say, 10kg and then driving a few miles down a well maintained road is not going to cause failure or fracture of components such as likely to be safety hazard.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to condone such action, but I think it's worth putting things into perspective. I would agree that caravan manufacturers should put their things in order, too, and help by modifying their designs to reduce noseweight to respectable values when the caravan is empty. all that is needed is to move the body of the caravan a few inches to the rear relative to the axle. It would increase the overall length by the same amount, but that is the only disadvantage.

 

[Surfer]

What is the reason for the noseweight being so high on an empty caravan? If you put things too far to the back you may end up with tail wagging which is very dangerous.

 

[Zafiral]

Roger, I feel your rant is a little over the top. Are you sure your nosewight guage is accurate?

I only say this because when we collected our Pegasus 524 with a central chest and 2 gas bottles was 115kg measured using a milenco type approved guage. So without the chest 120kg appears very high.

As otherwise stated, Bailey are not unique in having exworks noseweights erring towards weights for enhanced stability.

 

[Philspadders]

too high a nose weightn can be very detrimental to the outfits stability. The front steering can losse grip, and if you have front wheel drive ......

I also think you will find that many vans are very nose heavy even empty.

As for putting in the awning and poles to counterbalance the nose weight.... what if you dont actually use the awning.. all that dead weight costing you mpg. Not to mention you may be exceeding your mtplm.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Roger

I agree the dealer should have ensured your rig was safe to be taken onto the road, at the very least by pointing out that your tow car was not suitable to tow, with out first checking and adjusting the nose weight.

The dealer has an obligation to the public to ensure safety, to allow a unsafe rig onto the public roads cannot be defended.

The truth is MANY people that tow never check the nose weight, nor their tyres!

Obviously people who read forums like this do, but many rigs can be seen on the roads, that are obviously suspect!

The reason i believe bailey "hide" the ex works nose weights, is because joe public may not fully understand the concept of ballast adjustment, and on checking the weights would be put off buying a caravan that is apparently nose heavy.

For the novice entering the world of caravanning towing is very daunting.

Obviously an experienced caravaner should have enough knowledge to understand that he/she should first check that their rig is safe to take to the road, i have always taken water containers for ballast, along with a nose weight gauge, whenever i have collected a new caravan.

So in conclusion, both dealer and purchaser should first check that the rig is safe and legal, but if a purchaser is a newbie, then the dealer in my opinion, should be held responsible.

Hello Ray

If dealers were to held responsible for the actions of their customers, then cars with top speed exceeding 70mph would not be sold in the UK.

It is the driver's choice on how they use a vehicle, and whether to accede to or contravene the regulations, and therefore it is the driver's sole responsibility if an outfit is not lawful.

Transport managers can be prosecuted because they are responsible for the h&s and safety of their employees and they are committing an offence if they allow an employee to take an overloaded (and thus deemed unsafe) vehicle onto the roads.

As the caravanner is not an employee of the dealership, thus the dealership has no legal responsibility for the decisions of the driver.

Morally there may be a case to answer; a dealer is in a position of trust. The majority of the public will assume the dealer has relevant specialist knowledge and should be able to advise on such matters as matching outfits. If a dealer suspects that a customer's outfit is not suitable, they should make the customer aware of that suspicion. But it is the customers choice on how they use that advice.

 

[Lutz]

One would have to have really excessive noseweight in order to feel any difference in load on the front axle of the car. Even 50kg more on the towball is not going to take much more than 20kg off the front axle and that's probably less than a 2% change.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Roger,

In your response to Rita, you say

"It is totally against all sensible loading practice to have to load the rear of a caravan to achieve an acceptable noseweight. The implications for yaw inertia are not good."

From first principals if you cannot reduce the mass at the front of a caravan, the only way to reduce its effects on nose load is to load behind the axle as a counter balance. This has been the fundamental situation since the dawn of single axle caravans, so it is normal practice.

Whilst it is certainly true that adding mass at the extremes of an outfit is best avoided, the loads in question may be well inside the safe carriage limits of the outfit, and at normal driving speeds offer no significant degradation to the stability of the outfit.

It's a question of degree rather than a blanket statement, and as it has been the case for a number of years with different caravans, the lack of clear evidence to say it has been a major contributor to caravan related towing incidents suggests its not as black and white as you and other ante Bailey posters have made out in this thread.

I repeat that I am not connected to Bailey in any way, and I do think that their ex-works nose loads are rather excessive, but the company has been fully open about it, and they are not the only manufacturer to have hi ex-works nose loads.

Bailey perhaps more than any other company has evidence of the effects of loading from the studies they had Bath University carry out, and demonstrate, so I am fairly sure they will be aware of the issue and may have good reason for their designs.

This is a subject that needs to addressed by the head not the heart.