Peugeot 5008 70kg Noseweight - Caravan Match

[SpottyDog]

Hi there,

First off apologies for presumably dragging up a topic that regularly comes around however I am brand new to caravaning and am baffled by noseweights.

I have a Peugeot 5008 2.0 HDI with an advertised towbar weight of 70kg.

I am looking to get a lightweight four berth caravan however having checked numerous outfits on the online matcher I can only find one van that shows a 70kg nose weight (Elddis Explora 304 - 1043kg) however ideally I’d like something slightly bigger with perhaps a separate shower (Lunar Quasar 464 - 1240kg) but these come in 5kg over at 75kg.

Am I being unrealistic with my expectations based on my tow car?

Thanks

 

[otherclive]

Noseweight is variable and will depend on how you load your caravan. IE one 6kg propane Calorlite bottle weighs approx 10kg. So if you add a second bottle into your front locker it will increase noseweight by almost 10kg. Conversely if you were to put a large tank of water at the back of the caravan noseweight would reduce considerably.

So your car will have a maximum load that its towbar is rated for, in your case 70kg. You then load the caravan to adjust its noseweight to 70 kg in order to match the cars specification. Measuring noseweight of the caravan is dealt with in other threads. Try searching.

 

[SpottyDog]

Hi Clive,

Thanks for your reply, so am I wrong in thinking that vans have a natural “as manufactured” plated noseweight?

Is it simply a case of adjusting your load to meet your desired noseweight and all that really matters in outfit matching is max laden weight?

Thanks,

 

[Grey13]

https://www.leisureoutlet.com/towing-accessories/towing/caravans-and-motorhomes/32658-maypole-noseweight-gauge?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_oO-ra-94AIVipXtCh2MwNose weight.

https://www.leisureoutlet.com/towin...MI_oO-ra-94AIVipXtCh2MwwzXEAQYAiABEgJ52fD_BwE

 

[Grey13]

Try one of these

perhaps look for one on which you can adjust height first to fit your van etc.

https://www.leisureoutlet.com/towing-accessories/towing/caravans-and-motorhomes/32658-maypole-noseweight-gauge?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_oO-ra-94AIVipXtCh2MwwzXEAQYAiABEgJ52fD_BwE

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Clive,

Thanks for your reply, so am I wrong in thinking that vans have a natural “as manufactured” plated noseweight?

Is it simply a case of adjusting your load to meet your desired noseweight and all that really matters in outfit matching is max laden weight?

Thanks,

Some manufactures (but not all) may provide an exworks nose load figure of the caravan as it leaves the factory. but as soon as you add anything else to the caravan e.g battery, gas bottles, caravan steps in fact everything it will affect the nose load. Any thing in front of the main axle will increase the nose load and anything behind reduces the nose load, just like a seesaw. Consequently the manufacturers quoted nose load has very little relevance when the caravan has been loaded with essential items and luggage etc.

It is well documented that when towing having an adequate nose load acting on the cars tow ball has an important influence on the over all stability of the outfit. insufficient nose load will reduce the threshold at which instability will occur. Greater nose load will raise the threshold. But the threshold is also affected by many other factors so simply trimming for the highest possible nose load is not necessarily needed or the best thing to do. You only need enough nose load to maintain stability.EU regulations look for a minimum of 4% of the trailer MTPLM, and the UK caravan industry suggest a 5 to 7% range.

Measuring Nose load is a bit of a contentious subject, becasue the way the regulations are written requires the nose load to be measured with the trailer hitch at exactly the same height as when it is coupled to the tow vehicle, where the height will off course change depending on the applied load as the cars suspension will adjust accordingly. This is important becasue the load distribution in the caravan creates a centre of gravity which moves relative to the axle when the hitch changes height and this in turn affects the applied nose load. so hitch height is important.. The irony is that all the present nose load gauges available do not allow for height adjustment. That is why I always recommendmeasuring the height of teh coupled caravan, then using a set of bathroom scales supported on the caravan step and a few magazines to adjust the height to match the measured height - this must all be done on horizontal ground with the caravan brakes off.

on the

 

[Lutz]

.EU regulations look for a minimum of 4% of the trailer MTPLM, and the UK caravan industry suggest a 5 to 7% range.

The 4% figure that the EU Directive talks about refers to the minimum noseweight load carrying capacity that the towbar manufacturer must ensure, not the actual minimum in service.

 

[ProfJohnL]

.EU regulations look for a minimum of 4% of the trailer MTPLM, and the UK caravan industry suggest a 5 to 7% range.

The 4% figure that the EU Directive talks about refers to the minimum noseweight load carrying capacity that the towbar manufacturer must ensure, not the actual minimum in service.

Thank you Lutz, but in fact I used the wrong criteria, the to bar assembly must be designed to handle a minimum of 25kg or 4% of the tow vehicles maximum towed weight allowance (which ever is bigger) which of course is not necessarily the same as the the trailers MTPLM.

I should have been clearer and suggested the implication of the EU directive would be to expect the applied nose load to be at least 4% of the trailers MTPLM.
,

 

[Raywood]

The 70 kg figure is very low and would if you were setting out to buy a tow car would probably rule the Peugeot out for most people. You can adjust the nose weight by moving the load but putting weight at the back is not a good idea as it can create a pendulum effect when towing although the shorter the caravan the less this effect is apparent but still unwise.
Not sure where your figures for noseweight come from as I do not know of any published figures. If you are buying from a dealer I would hope that he would be able to weigh it for you to see if it is possible as I think severall smaller caravans will be below 70 kg.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Just out of interest I looked up the details of the 5008

https://media.peugeot.co.uk/file/63/2/all-new-peugeot-5008-suv-october-2017-version-2.pdf?lcdv16=1PP7SYHCRKT0AXXX
and on page 17 it gives a lot of useful informatio
In particular the stated nose load limit is 72kg which is exactly 4% of the maximum towed weight limit which is 1800kg

However the the vehicles kerb weight is claimed to be 1540 kg, which gives a recommended caravan MTPLM of only 1309kg. So in the context of those figures the nose load limit of 72kg is perfectly adequate, provided the car and caravan are loaded and driven safely.

 

[otherclive]

Why do people keep insisting that the 70 kg noseweight limit is very low. No it’s not. It’s the 4x4 bigger is community who can’t get their minds around the fact that 70 kg can give a perfectly satisfactory outfit combination providing that the driver ensures the car an van are well matched, the car and van are loaded correctly and the outfit is driven sensibly.

Over the years I’ve been from 60 kg up to the Alko maximum of 100 kg and now I’m back down to 80 kg. To be honest I can’t say that I’ve ever been concerned at the stability of my outfits. Yes some have been twitchy even on straight level calm conditions, which was probably down to the relatively unsophisticated suspension of the cars, which did not have the benefit of ESP or trailer asssist software. Modern cars also have more sophisticated suspensions too.
I recall a Club towcar test where the vehicle was stated to have a very low noseweight but actually came out as group winner. Humble pie required on that one, or better editing methinks.

 

[Raywood]

Clive, I think that the problem probably arises because the caravan firms are used to cars having at least 75 kg max nose weight and are building the caravans accordingly. On that basis Peugeot have not kept up with the modern trend and could be out of step with the market. Finding a caravan that can be safely towed at that level may be a problem and if buying to tow other models would be a better bet.
We started out towing some 35 years or so ago and frankly nose weight were not something you worried about. I would have to admit that I have no idea what the noseweight limits of our first tow cars was or for that matter what the noseweight of the first couple of caravans was. Given that I could lift the hitch fairly easily on those though I doubt we had a potential problem. My feeling is that nose weights have increased over the years, either that or I am getting weaker with age, or possibly both.

 

[otherclive]

Clive, I think that the problem probably arises because the caravan firms are used to cars having at least 75 kg max nose weight and are building the caravans accordingly. On that basis Peugeot have not kept up with the modern trend and could be out of step with the market. Finding a caravan that can be safely towed at that level may be a problem and if buying to tow other models would be a better bet.
We started out towing some 35 years or so ago and frankly nose weight were not something you worried about. I would have to admit that I have no idea what the noseweight limits of our first tow cars was or for that matter what the noseweight of the first couple of caravans was. Given that I could lift the hitch fairly easily on those though I doubt we had a potential problem. My feeling is that nose weights have increased over the years, either that or I am getting weaker with age, or possibly both.

Ray,

You and me both

 

[Dodger524]

I think the low nose weight allowance may be a French thing. We owned a 2010 Citroen C5 estate 2 lt diesel when we decided to take up caravanning but found the maximum nose weight it could cope with was only 50Kg so, very sadly had to part exchange it.

 

[ProfJohnL]

IF the figures I discovered on the Peugeot web site are accurate, then the 5008 2.0HDI has a kerb weight of 1540kg, which using the caravan industries 85% guide gives an MTPLM of 1309kg. If you loaded the caravan to give a nose load of 72kg ( the limit for the 5008,) it would be 5.5% of the caravan MTPLM which is well within the industries suggestion of 5 to 7%

The nose load allowance on the 5008 is not low. Its not great but its definitely not LOW. It just reflects the vehicle is not able to tow a particularly large caravan.

 

[Raywood]

IF the figures I discovered on the Peugeot web site are accurate, then the 5008 2.0HDI has a kerb weight of 1540kg, which using the caravan industries 85% guide gives an MTPLM of 1309kg. If you loaded the caravan to give a nose load of 72kg ( the limit for the 5008,) it would be 5.5% of the caravan MTPLM which is well within the industries suggestion of 5 to 7%

The nose load allowance on the 5008 is not low. Its not great but its definitely not LOW. It just reflects the vehicle is not able to tow a particularly large caravan.

Hi Prof. You are correct in your calculations, but the problem seems to be finding a caravan with a nose weight that low. If the caravan has a nose weight over 70 kg empty, then without loading at the back which is not good, you will be in difficulty getting a legal nose weight. I am not sure where the matching site gets its nose weights from but if they are correct the OP has a problem.

 

[otherclive]

IF the figures I discovered on the Peugeot web site are accurate, then the 5008 2.0HDI has a kerb weight of 1540kg, which using the caravan industries 85% guide gives an MTPLM of 1309kg. If you loaded the caravan to give a nose load of 72kg ( the limit for the 5008,) it would be 5.5% of the caravan MTPLM which is well within the industries suggestion of 5 to 7%

The nose load allowance on the 5008 is not low. Its not great but its definitely not LOW. It just reflects the vehicle is not able to tow a particularly large caravan.

Hi Prof. You are correct in your calculations, but the problem seems to be finding a caravan with a nose weight that low. If the caravan has a nose weight over 70 kg empty, then without loading at the back which is not good, you will be in difficulty getting a legal nose weight. I am not sure where the matching site gets its nose weights from but if they are correct the OP has a problem.

My noseweight empty is above 90kg. Exacerbated further by removal of rear bunks to increase payload. Nothing goes in the front seat lockers and generally only one gas bottle in the front.

 

[Lutz]

While it is true that adding weight at the back should be avoided if at all possible, the advice should be taken with some degree of latitude. Up to about 20kg at the back should not affect stability noticeably, otherwise all those caravans with bike racks on the back would constitute a serious hazard on the road.

 

[Craigyoung]

Two adult mountain bikes on the back of ours each time we go away and no stability problems at all .

 

[Buckman]

At one time the guideline for nose weight was between 5 & 7% of the MTPLM of the caravan. This seems to have gone out the window.

 

[Lutz]

At one time the guideline for nose weight was between 5 & 7% of the MTPLM of the caravan. This seems to have gone out the window.

That would be nice, but often unachievable. Besides, the recommendation originated at a time when noseweight wasn't regulated in any way and owners had nothing better in the way of information to go by.

 

[Buckman]

At one time the guideline for nose weight was between 5 & 7% of the MTPLM of the caravan. This seems to have gone out the window.

That would be nice, but often unachievable. Besides, the recommendation originated at a time when noseweight wasn't regulated in any way and owners had nothing better in the way of information to go by.

I don't think it is regulated by any legislation? BTW the guideline was published in Swift owner's handbooks not so long ago!

 

[Lutz]

I don't think it is regulated by any legislation? BTW the guideline was published in Swift owner's handbooks not so long ago!

By regulated I meant that the noseweight limit has to be plated, not that regulations state that the actual figure has to be within some specified limit.

I don't doubt that some sources continue to mention the recommendation, but in many cases it just isn't feasible because the towbar or vehicle manufacturer have stuck with the 4% minimum that the regulations require.

 

[ProfJohnL]

IF the figures I discovered on the Peugeot web site are accurate, then the 5008 2.0HDI has a kerb weight of 1540kg, which using the caravan industries 85% guide gives an MTPLM of 1309kg. If you loaded the caravan to give a nose load of 72kg ( the limit for the 5008,) it would be 5.5% of the caravan MTPLM which is well within the industries suggestion of 5 to 7%

The nose load allowance on the 5008 is not low. Its not great but its definitely not LOW. It just reflects the vehicle is not able to tow a particularly large caravan.

Hi Prof. You are correct in your calculations, but the problem seems to be finding a caravan with a nose weight that low. If the caravan has a nose weight over 70 kg empty, then without loading at the back which is not good, you will be in difficulty getting a legal nose weight. I am not sure where the matching site gets its nose weights from but if they are correct the OP has a problem.

Hello Ray,

You and I both know that the nose load a caravan produces is determined by the way the caravan is loaded, and it is up to the driver to ensure the actual nose load is within the limits of coupling.

The mantra of "do not end load" is not a black and white matter, and provided it is done sensibly it can be a perfectly satisfactory solution to achieving an in range nose load.

If the degree of end loading required to set a nose load causes the outfit to become unmanageable, then it is my experience there is usually other more serious issues with the car and trailer matching, and end loading is frequently not the major issue.

All caravans have some mass distributed towards the ends of the trailer, and often different bathroom/kitchen/ bedroom layouts may be used in the same basic body, yet the differences in the masses which could be in the order of 100Kg do not cause major issues. I have had to add up to 30kg of end loading to some ex factory caravans to bring the nose load into range, and despite this I have never had a towing problem.

I fully agree that end loading should be avoided if possible, If it is required care must be exercised and speed incremented upwards when no untoward issues occur at lower speeds.

Sadly there no set of weight and loading protocols that can be applied to every possible outfit to guarantee a good stable tow, each outfit has to eased onto the road and the characteristics explored by the driver. Most importantly if a a negative characteristic becomes apparent , the driver must stop doing what has exacerbated it ( usually increasing speed), and ultimately to stop when safe to do so to try correcting the problem.

 

[Raywood]

Hi Prof. I agree that loading towards the back is not always a problem but it needs a lot of care and to me is best avoided. In this case it is possibly too late but personally I would not buy a car where the nose weight allowance was that low.