Point of Law - One for the Prof.

[Thingy]

Hi chaps and chapesses, I have a point of law issue, hoping Prof is burning the midnight oil.

As many of you know, I have just changed the caravan, buying a 2016 Sterling Continental, and that has come supplied with a jack, which I presume is the original as it is still in its protective bag. When collecting the caravan, I had my motor mover transferred.
Today, looking for the problematic outside temperature sensor, I noticed that there are no Alko jacking points bolted to the chassis. Not only that, but if they had been present and then removed, I would expect to see tell tale marks on the chassis of which there are none.
Obvously I am going to have to speak to the dealer about this, but given that the caravan was supplied from new with this jack as part of its spec, and it has come from the dealer the same way, is it reasonable to assume the dealer should have supplied the caravan with suitable jacking points. because of the weight of the caravan, if I have to buy these brackets from Alko they are £122, which I think is a bit steep for two galvanised brackets, these being the 1000kg set.
Thoughts please?

The following was from the original sales brochure:

Additional/Upgrade to Elite
Exterior
••
External shower point
••
AL-KO side-mounted jack
••
Spare wheel on underslung carrier
Interior
••
New Part leather/SwiftShield soft furnishing scheme
••
Additional background lighting to panoramic sunroof and front 'A' pillars
••
Hessian effect furniture with curved upper locker doors in leather effect vinyl with gloss Smoked Oak effect inlay
••
Lightweight, strong composite furniture construction
••
Soft close hinges to specific lower doors with positive catches for secure storage
••
Cocktail cabinet with glass and bottle holders, mirror and LED lighting
••
Luxury curtains with full width fabric on all side and
centre front windows complemented by fabric covered wall pads
••
High quality luxury 58oz carpet laid in sections for easy removability
••
Deep fully padded headboard to fixed bed
••
Fabric covered vent boards adjoining fixed beds
••
HI-MACS® natural acrylic stone solid kitchen work surface with work top extension flap and stainless steel
••
Mini and Midi Heki clear skylights to lounge and bedroom compartments
••
Space saving sliding wardrobe door (model specific)
••
Decorative inlay to washroom door (model specific)
Equipment
••
Domestic style chrome effect towel radiator in all washrooms
••
Under counter Dometic 110 litre electronic ignition fridge incorporating 12 litre removable freezer compartment (190 litre Dometic electronic ignition double door fridge freezer with 35 litre freezer capacity in twin axles)
••
30 litre internal fresh water tank with additional external pump for filling or direct feed to taps in all models
••
Addition of water tank gauge and filling function on new Swift Command power supply unit
••
Premium quality speakers in washrooms
••
Low energy LED lighting throughout including front pillar lights
••
Down lighting and ceiling header lighting
••
Front shelf pod with USB socket, audio jack plug link to radio and 230V sockets
••
Between six and eight 230V sockets (not including cooker and microwave)
••
Pre-wired for motor mover with internal isolation switch and 12V connection point
Safety and Security
••
AL-KO Secure wheel lock(s)

 

[Icaru5]

Hello Thingy,

During your search for the brackets, have you checked inside the bag that holds the jack ?

In any case, I’m amazed that you would start to make legal references before even speaking with the supplying dealer, especially considering that original brochure refers to the Alko side lift jack, which, incidentally is available on its own without the brackets, but since you bought a second hand caravan, unless the dealer confirmed otherwise before the sale, there are no guarantees that all accessories which formed part of the original supply will be present.

 

[Thingy]

During your search for the brackets, have you checked inside the bag that holds the jack ?

Er no, I havent. First thing tomorrow.

In any case, I’m amazed that you would start to make legal references before even speaking with the supplying dealer,

Just a figure of speech, knowing Profs knowledge of the CRA. Hoping it would get his attention if he logs on.

However, to supply the jack, which requires a modicum of safety in practice and use, its utterly useless without the brackets. Where I daft enough to try to use it, which I am not, and the caravan slipped and injured me, then there would be a claim. Surely, the jack, as part of the sale has to be fit for purpose.
However, its not really a legal thing, just want to know how insistant I can afford to be with the dealer.

 

[Icaru5]

I don’t doubt that the Alko Side Lift Jack which was supplied with your Caravan when it was new was indeed the “kit” containing the brackets, but I would be very surprised indeed if the dealers general practice was to make a special case for those models which are supplied with the Jack as an included accessory, and open the bag, remove the brackets and fit them prior to the PDI. I would expect it to be more a case that they would simply pass on this box, or bag as supplied by the manufacturer, to the end user, as is.

Looking forward to hearing of your findings first thing tomorrow

 

[Thingy]

If the brackets are indeed in the bag, I have no problem fitting them myself. From the shape of the bag as I remember, I doubt they will be in.
I did ask at point of sale re the wheel brace, jack, spare wheel etc. and so expect them to be there and usable.

If you look at the shape of the head of the jack, it isnt usable on its own.

 

[JTQ]

Where I daft enough to try to use it, which I am not, and the caravan slipped and injured me, then there would be a claim. .

Not understanding who you think you would be "claiming"against?
You clearly can't use the jack as intended, so it would have to be your own misuse of the jack that was the cause of the injury?

 

[Icaru5]

100% agree JTQ. This “claim” culture is absolutely ridiculous and in many cases is nothing other than a financial reward for ones own stupidity. It’s also one of the main reasons why our day to day lives are overburdened with ludicrous rules, regulations and policies, to both protect people from their own stupidity, and to financially protect those whose products and services we use and whoever we interact with, including our own employers and the government.

 

[Thingy]

Let me make myself clear.
I did not say I would either make a claim or be daft enough to use a jack that doesnt fit. Where are you getting this stuff from, I said IF. I am certainly not dense enough to use a jack that doesnt fit.

I use" I" in the general sense. Let me rephrase that , "IF SOMEBODY WERE TO USE THE JACK."

The only point here is that this jack was part of the original spec of the van, and one would think that the jack would have been supplied in a working condition, i.e. with the jack brackets.
The handbook states, and I quote

Ensure that the jack is located in the correct position, i.e. on the jacking bracket on the chassis for the Al-Ko side mounted jack (FIG b)

I do not disagree about the claim culture, but out there is bound to be somebody thick enough to try it, and whether or not the claim culture is ridiculous, I am sure that they would win a claim, as is, the jack is not fit for purpose.

 

[JTQ]

Let me make myself clear.
I did not say I would either make a claim or be daft enough to use a jack that doesnt fit. Where are you getting this stuff from, I said IF. I am certainly not dense enough to use a jack that doesnt fit.

Hold on, it came from you, nobody else.
Crystal clear to me you stated "then there would be a claim", where I am at a loss to work out who that claim could be against other than whoever misused the thing?

 

[Thingy]

I couldnt have made it clearer. Nothing further to say. I am not getting into this.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Thingy,

Hang on a bit, This was a rather provocative title and opening post.

Firstly let me make it absolutely clear I do not have any professional legal training, but I have had a number of personal successes using the power of SoGA/CRA and a number of other contributors have reported success using idea's or points that I have suggested.

Equally there are now other contributors who seem to be increasingly savvy about consumer rights and how to apply them, and that's great.

Before acting on any advice seen on a forum, you should satisfy yourself of its validity by reference to a verifiable source.

There is nothing wrong with being prepared and having a game plan, and given the circumstances you have outlined the CRA would be you most likely legal route if you actually have a legitimate case to pursue, a point which I will offer my thoughts on just a little further down. But your posting does give the impression you want to go back to your dealer with all guns blazing, and I am convinced that is not the best way to start.

Approaching your dealer by saying something like (but make it truthful) "I was checking out how to use the Alko jack that was included, but I couldn't find the jacking brackets, can you tell me where I might find them?" With any luck they should tell you, but if you still cannot find them, you now in a position to point out they should have been there otherwise the jack cannot be used, which might prompt them to offer to get them for you.

Let's now look to see if you would you have a case under the CRA, based on what you have told us:

If you had bought the caravan brand new, there would be absolutely no doubt the jacking points should be there and functional, becasue they appear on the specification list for the caravan, and that list would form part of the specification for the order for the caravan. The dealer would have no leg to stand on and they would have to obtain (and fit) the missing parts.

The picture is the same for secondhand goods in so far they must match the description the seller uses to describe the goods. BUT the difference is, it is any entirely separate contract with no automatic connection to the original specifications.

If the seller does adopt the original specification and/or options list, then the goods even secondhand must comply with that list.

So the sellers description is critical, if it did not list the jack and jacking brackets, he could try to argue they were not part of the contract, and as a consequence the caravan does not have to have them.

However if during the pre-sale negotiations you agree with the seller to include the Alko jack then it does form part of the contract, and in my opinion it would be reasonable to expect it to be functional. As you point out, it is not functional without its jack brackets, and a quick check on the Alko web site;

http://www.al-ko.com/shop/uk_vt/products/caravan-accessories-1/jacks-accessories.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw_b3cBRByEiwAdG8WqnCbRMn8yfsivhiaZG-qEYlQM8alKOdFea8rywzJnexmVh7JIziuDhoCG5oQAvD_BwE
-shows the jack is only sold as a kit that includes the jack brackets. Just having the screw lift is not a complete jack.

To have the strongest chance of making a CRA claim stick you would need to have a witness who overheard you asking about the jack, and could confirm the seller agreed it would be with the caravan.

 

[Thingy]

Hi Prof and thank you for your detailed response.

Not quite sure how the original title is provactive or even why it would upset some people. The point of law was simply referring to the CRA and whether my argument to the dealer (if argument is the right word) that the jack is not complete without the brackets holds water. It certainly isnt safe to use.

After many years caravanning I have the experience to know that the jack has to be used with brackets, and therefore would never attempt to jack up a caravan with this jack as is. Somebody very new to the game may not be aware and could easily be injured, and I personally feel that they would have grounds to attempt a claim against the dealer. Whether that be successful or not is another matter.

What this really boils down to is whether the dealer should have supplied the brackets or not. There was a verbal discussion with the dealer in respect of jack, Al-Ko wheel lock, wheel brace, spare wheel, leg winder and all the other peripheral items that would normally go with a caravan. I was told that all would be present and from that I would expect them to be in working order.

As it is I have just spoken to the dealer. They say they will have taken the brackets off to fit the motor mover, and for some reason they just get dumped in a corner. They are going to send the brackets and fittings in the post. They apologised profusely and stressed that I mustnt use the jack because it isnt safe without the brackets :woohoo:

Edited to say that I thought these brackets would be fitted behind the wheel between wheel and spare wheel carrier. Why they would remove them to fit the motor mover simply doesnt make any sense.

 

[Hutch]

Dealer talking total rubbish, the Alko chassis , brackets are well behind the wheels, on a single axle van. Unless your motor mover is fitted behind the wheels or is a double axle unit.

 

[Hutch]

Slightly off thread, have you ever tried to get the spare wheel,out of the carrier, with a flat left hand wheel then jack up caravan on that flimsy jack, no way. a. Nigh on impossible, ditched ours carry the wheel under the bed . Much safer. .

 

[Thingy]

Yep, been there. Agree, the carrier is a right pain.

 

[Grey13]

So far I carry will my spare wheel in the boot. Pain but will not put it under the van or it will not fit under a bed. (weight loading aside)

Often thought about having the floor cut and a drop in trap piece fitted just inside the door. So far i ride around with it in my boot.

 

[jamestaylor18]

My old caravan has the Alko under slung wheel carrier. Thankfully I never had to use it, but I did periodically check the spare tyre. So... back in March last year (2017) I had three new tyres (2 on the caravan plus the spare). This Easter I decided to check the spare tyre over and check the pressure. I was quite concerned that the spare had been rubbing itself whilst travelling and had made a considerable mark on the new tyre. It was in the carrier correctly, tightly screwed in etc, but somehow has managed to cause considerable damage to the tyre wall.

I have px'd that caravan now anyway, and my new one keeps the spare tyre under the bed.

 

[Hutch]

My old caravan has the Alko under slung wheel carrier. Thankfully I never had to use it, but I did periodically check the spare tyre. So... back in March last year (2017) I had three new tyres (2 on the caravan plus the spare). This Easter I decided to check the spare tyre over and check the pressure. I was quite concerned that the spare had been rubbing itself whilst travelling and had made a considerable mark on the new tyre. It was in the carrier correctly, tightly screwed in etc, but somehow has managed to cause considerable damage to the tyre wall.

I have px'd that caravan now anyway, and my new one keeps the spare tyre under the bed.

James, I had the same thing, destroyed the tyre, don't need that when you have a puncture on the van.
Ps love your music. :evil:

 

[Craigyoung]

Only had ours just over a year and that's screws in the oven housing to check and not that i've had to use it (yet) :huh: but that's something else i'll be pulling out to check on the carrier and spare wheel so thanks for the heads up James

Craig

 

[Anseo]

On my Bailey Pegasus GT65 I consider myself relatively lucky in that the spare wheel lowers down on a winch from inside the caravan, it's still a pain it has to be said, but much better than the Alko carrier.

I really would like an old style hatch on the floor where I could reach in and lift out the spare.

Or a rear panel mounted spare secured with a lock, AH! OK I've lost reality now :dry:

 

[Hutch]

Only had ours just over a year and that's screws in the oven housing to check and not that i've had to use it (yet) :huh: but that's something else i'll be pulling out to check on the carrier and spare wheel so thanks for the heads up James

Craig

I thought you ditched the Alko carrier at the same time as I did, or was that your last van, saved me 6kg on the carrier.

 

[Craigyoung]

No mate never touched the one on the last caravan and haven't touched the one on this one yet . I was thinking about it but I had no where to put it as the last one was quite small and when you got two kids 2 also pack for doesn't leave any room in the boot.

 

[Thingy]

One last quick question foir those that have these brackets fitted................ just looking at the fitting instructions and it looks as if there is a slight clearance bettween the flat top of these brackets and the underside of the caravan floor. Can anyone tell me if this is the case or do they sit flush.

 

[chrisn7]

They sit flush with the floor. I had to remove mine to fit the mover being a TA. Strictly speaking its only necessary to remove the outer bracket, the inner could remain.

 

[Raywood]

I think you have to look at the legislation covering the sale which is mainly contract law and the Consumer Protection Act.
The caravan is second hand which means there is no contract that it will now be exactly to the manufacturers original specification as use means things may change. What the dealer presents is a caravan possibly modified by the previous owner and sold as presented. As the jack was not a condition of the sale I doubt that contract law will help you.
Having said that the caravan should not be faulty and the difficult question here is do the missing brackets constitute a fault. They do not prevent normal use of the caravan and even if a wheel needs changing the caravan can be jacked up by putting the jack under the axle although you do need the appropriate jack to do this.
The answer is not clear but on balance I doubt you have a case under the CPA.
My feeling is that the caravan was originally supplied with the brackets missing and the selling dealer and the first owner missed this although I doubt that is relevant.
I suggest that in the first place you should go is back to the dealer and see if they will help. If not and you are a member of either club you could try their legal helpline but on balance I think unless the dealer helps you are stuck with the situation.