Readers Letter in April issue of Practical Caravan Magazine

Parksy

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I've no wish to re-open old wounds or to revive a discussion that has been aired on the forum many times but one of our forum regulars, Roger L, had a letter published in the letters page of the April edition of Practical Caravan Magazine (Page 14).

Roger outlines his concern about 'the continued undermining of the NCC Towing Guide's 85% guideline for beginners on the Practical Caravan Forum by regular posters and others who post their views online, specifically in threads from beginners asking for advice on the forum'.

Whilst many of us will agree that the 85% guideline for beginners is a good starting point and the concensus was arrived at as a result of the collective experience of clubs and organisations there are obviously those who consider the 85% guideline for beginners to be arbitrary and not based on any published research or documentation.

Roger wrote that he felt that 'Practical Caravan and it's forum have a duty to provide responsible advice to new caravanners' and that 'they are falling short of fulfilling that duty'.
Towcars Editor David Motton replied to state that 'We agree that the 85% matching guideline is a worthwhile rule of thumb, especially for beginners. This guideline (like you, Roger, I prefer not to refer to it as a rule) is explained on the 'Caravan basics' page each month, and is often the subject of questions in our 'Talking Towcars' questions-and-answer column'.

David went to to write 'Whether reading the magazine or website, I think it's clear that Practical Caravan supports the 85% guideline as a useful tool for inexperienced caavanners'.

I'd like to congratulate Roger L on the publication of his letter and reassure him that whenever those who are new to towing or who ask advice about any aspect of touring use this forum to broaden their knowledge we do our best to ensure that the advice offered will not endanger those who ask the question or encourage them to break the law.

All too often seemingly simple forum enquiries become bogged down in debate that has little to do with the question originally being asked, and the term '85% rule' is an oft used colloquialism that for some reason enrages a minority of forum regulars even though most of us who use this forum are all too aware that the 'rule' is in fact a guideline for beginners and that the actual wording is not terribly important but that towing safety for beginners definitely is.

As David Motton went on to say in his reply, it's important that forum posts are not censored by moderators unless they breach forum etiquette and the Terms and Conditions which can be seen by clicking the red text links at the foot of the forum page.
There are many statements which appear on Practical Caravan forum which moderators and forum users may not totally agree with but this does not give moderators the right to censor or to edit comments that we don't like or agree with.

If moderators genuinely feel that safety is being compromised or that an illegal act is being encouraged (such as in cases where lpg and 240v electricity is under discussion) we will act, but when pedantic challenges to the 85% guideline for beginners appear on the forum it's up to the rest of us to convince those asking the questions that the concensus of opinion coupled with the publicly stated support of the Practical Caravan team is the best advice to follow.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I'd have no problem with offering the newcomer to caravanning a guideline that stands up to scrutiny, but that's exactly what the recommendation doesn't do and publication of the letter does not throw any more light on the issue, either. No-one, I repeat, no-one has ever come up with convincing evidence that the recommendation is anything but totally arbitrary. It has been around for so long that it is perfectly legitimate to conclude that it is about time to question its continued validity under today's conditions. What is more frightening is that with so much emphasis placed on the recommendation, the newcomer can easily be mislead in believing that everything will be alright so long as the weight ratio doesn't exceed 85%. Any such implication is irresponsible.
I'd have less of a problem with Davis Motton's reply if he would have at least admitted that the 85% is purely arbitrary. This he has failed to do or does he have any information or data supporting the recommendation that he has not wished to or forgotten to disclose?
I'm sorry if this reply is seen as being a bit hefty, but some of the statements in the editor's reply were not adequately qualified and I feel that this requires comment.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Roger wrote that he felt that 'Practical Caravan and it's forum have a duty to provide responsible advice to new caravanners' and that 'they are falling short of fulfilling that duty'.
I have no wish to be antagonistic but isn't this a bit of the kettle calling the pot black.
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I recall someone, no names, said it was quite ok to jack up an Al-ko chassis without the Al-ko chassis stiffeners fitted!
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But the Forum boys and girls rallied and put that right.
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As we all know there are many factors involved in securing a stable outfit and as Lutz says no one has proven anything yet about 85% weight ratios.
 
Apr 22, 2006
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Personally I think a "newbie" is probably more at harm from conecting their plug into the electric before fixing the other end to the caravan than going a few % over this guideline. There are so many factors to consider when trying to achieve a safe outfit match that focusing on one small parameter I think is a false idea of safety. If I recall correctly there have been some vehicles such as the Renault scenic that cannot even make 85% of their kerbweight for a legal tow. From now on in I think we should only go by the car manufacturers towing limits. These are after all a defining legal limit and while they may not mean the vehicle is a good tow at this at least it will be legal. There have been in the past vehicles that are not even good at towing at the 85% mark anyway.
 

Parksy

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Lutz said:
I'd have no problem with offering the newcomer to caravanning a guideline that stands up to scrutiny, but that's exactly what the recommendation doesn't do and publication of the letter does not throw any more light on the issue, either. No-one, I repeat, no-one has ever come up with convincing evidence that the recommendation is anything but totally arbitrary. It has been around for so long that it is perfectly legitimate to conclude that it is about time to question its continued validity under today's conditions. What is more frightening is that with so much emphasis placed on the recommendation, the newcomer can easily be mislead in believing that everything will be alright so long as the weight ratio doesn't exceed 85%. Any such implication is irresponsible.
I'd have less of a problem with Davis Motton's reply if he would have at least admitted that the 85% is purely arbitrary. This he has failed to do or does he have any information or data supporting the recommendation that he has not wished to or forgotten to disclose?
I'm sorry if this reply is seen as being a bit hefty, but some of the statements in the editor's reply were not adequately qualified and I feel that this requires comment.
Roger L concedes in his letter that no orgasnisation has tried to claim that the 85% novices guideline was arrived at as a result of exhaustive testing but he points out that the concensus between all touring caravan organisations and publications including Practical Caravan who own this forum is based on years of collective exerience.
The only ones who I've ever seen who try to suggest that as long as the 85% guideline is followed all will be well and that novices are misled into believing this are those who constantly try to undermine the 85% guideline for beginners.
A casual browse through any caravan-related publication or internet forum, including Practical Caravan forum, will reveal that the so-called over emphasis of the 85% guideline doesn't exist other than as a spurious line of argument used by those who try to challenge it's validity.
David Motton in his letters page reply also concedes that the 85% guideline for beginers was not demonstrably arrived at as the result of rigorous scientific testing and he goes on to state that he 'once asked Dr Jos Darlng of the University of Bath - probably Britains leading expert on the physics of towing - whether the figure was still relevant'
David wrote that the expert's feeling was that it is 'still a sensible maximum for newcomers'
Dr Jos Darling went on to reply that 'Until something scientifically rigorous but easy to understand comes along to replace it [the 85% guideline for beginners] remains a sensible rule of thumb'

Along with all of the other good and sensible advice offered to those new to towing who use this forum I'd suggest that rather than the implication that the 85% guideline when mentioned on this forum being irresponsible, the constant undermining of it by a minority, the clouding of the issue with the pedantic sniping at the form of English grammar used which drives new forum members away from this forum, and the demand for 'proof' when the figure is clearly based on years of collective experience and knowledge is 'irresponsible'
If the 85% guideline for novice towcar users, when taken within the context of all of the supplementary advice offered to novice towcar users is good enough for the eminent Dr Jos Darling it ought to be good enough for Practical Caravan forum when used within the correct context.
 
Dec 14, 2006
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I must say, in support of the 85% (rule/guideline) it has served us well. We took it very seriously when new to caravanning. We also loaded up according to recommendations, and we had a very stable outfit and have never had problems. However, someone OH worked with, super confident about his 'towing abilities' didn't fare so well. He thought he knew better, and towed his father's heavy van with his (lighter though still legal) car and wrote both off on the motorway about forty miles from home. It might have happened had he been towing within the 85% rule, who knows!!!
It may not be 'sustainable in law' or even 'proveable' but as a basic guidance for newcomers it's something that makes sense!
 
Oct 30, 2009
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hi all.
while I am quite agnostic about the 85% recomendation be it for newbies or anyone else that wishes to follow it, my own personnal experience tells me that van loading and driving technique are the most important. with the weight of the van secondary.
I don't have any problem with advising newbies with any safety meaures as they embark on a journey that is caravanning I would only object when it is suggested that following certian "rules" will keep them safe. it will not.
there is no doubt that any recommendation that ensures the newbie keeps on the rightside of the law is worthwhile and it could be that following 85% will ensure that thier gross train weight is never exeeded then it would be prudent to point this out however it is not the 85% in it's self that is important but the ratio of the van against the weight of the car.
a big factor of this but rarely taked about is the actual tow load that can be as much as 7% different from the figures on paper so a van with a 85% ratio to the weight of the car, could be as low as 78%, subtracting the nose weight from the mean weight of the van would in the same instance that to achieve 85% as the recommendation the true percentage would be nearer 92%
confusing of course it is and for a newbie even more so especialy when posters utter the words "rule" as if it is some sort of holy grail that must be followed at all cost. quite a few posts have been made in he past with the opening line "my van is very unstable above 50mph even though I keep to the 85% rule why is this" answers usually come in the form of all the other essentials that make a decent tow possible like nose weight, loading, tyre pressures ECT, but these are talked about secondary. after the the 85% has been established,
a while ago there was a link to a site that had a game on it you could alter the weights and loading and test the outcome against real time senarios , I spent hours on it and used every combination possible, using the loading plan and weight distibution that I use with normal driving techniques the maximum trailer weight i could get to without a snake was 140% @ 75 mph. I also loaded it badly and got a snake at 60% @ 42mph.
it just shows the importance of loading against any mythological trailer weight.be it 85% or 100% or even 50%

if other members want to recomend 85% thats fine, if it becomes the norm on the forum to advise newbies that 85% is sensble that is Also fine. it is better to advise in unison, myself I do not subscribe to it, never have, that does not mean I would ever recommend against it. especialy to a newbie just starting out,
but that is just my oppinion and carries no more weight than that.
 
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I can't recommend against it either, Colin, because I don't know how it was arrived at in the first place and under what conditions, so I can't assess whether it makes sense or not. It would absolutely absurd to suggest that any recommendation, whatever the actual figure, is valid unconditionally whatever the circumstances. Even,
Dr Jos Darling went on to reply that 'Until something scientifically rigorous but easy to understand comes along to replace it [the 85% guideline for beginners] remains a sensible rule of thumb'
is in itself an admission that it has shortcomings and needs to be looked into further.
What annoys me is that for something that has been around for such a long time, it is being blindly passed on to further generations by various bodies without questioning its continued validity.
 
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We went to a now defunct dealer last year and the salesman assured us that our Ford Kuga and a Swift Challenger 570 that weigh about the same would be a less than 85% match after he consulted his computer
He was using the Ford stated max tow for the vehicle as the weight of the car
A little knowledge and in the wrong hands
Similarly the Nissan X Trail auto has a manufacturers max tow of 1350 Kg as against the manual which they quote as max tow 2200Kg
Using the 85% rule on the auto would be questionnable and its difficulty to get a specific accurate weight for the XT (or others) without using a weighbridge
It seems to me that a possible side effect of the 85% guide is that manufacturers to comply with it are quoting MIROs as low as they can and the knock on effect of that is reduced payload allowances so that when stopped by police etc its very easy to be over the stated loading limits while within the capacity of the outfit chassis and tyres
Some manufactureres now will upgrade the MIRO with no change other than the paper work
 
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Practical Caravan and it's forum have a duty to provide responsible advice to new caravanners' and that 'they are falling short of fulfilling that duty'
Is Roger L now a moderator on this forum dictating terms to the PC forum and demanding that we comply with his terms etc? I find it a strange attitude as what one person defines as responsible advice may not be defined as responsible advice by another person.
If Roger L is so worried about it, why does he not simply post a link to a responsible site like the CC website? It is then up to the person concerned to accept or reject the advice.
 

Parksy

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Roger contacted the letters page and offered his opinion which he's perfectly at liberty to do, I don't think that he meant to make demands but he's obviously concerned about what he sees as the constant undermining of advice given to those new to towing who ask questions on this forum.
We could continue to argue about the merits or otherwise of the 85% advice which forms a small part of the guidance and information available to novice towcar drivers because there is no definitive answer.
Whenever newbies ask advice on this forum the 85% 'rule' is sometimes mentioned along with other advice about driver eligibility through licence entitlement, the safe loading of both towing vehicle and caravan, the suitability of the towcar, advice on correct noseweights etc and quite often url links are shown which will navigate to further information and various websites.
The 85% advice for novice towcar drivers is a small part of the overall advice which is responsibly offered.
My concern is not so much with the legitimacy of the 85% guideline but I am concerned that whenever a newbie asks a fairly straightforward question on this forum and receives an answer based on the broad consensus of opinion of caravan related organisations, clubs and publications a minority of forum members immediately take it upon themselves to launch the same old pedantic debate which merely serves to confuse the newbie asking the question.
It has become apparent to moderators, and some forum members who have contacted me via email with regard to this matter, that these long debates whenever a newbie asks a question is causing forum members both new and old to desert this forum in favour of others where the 'debating society' do not dominate every piece of advice. Posts on other forums ( which their admin kindly removed at my request) have proved this to be the case and it's time that the pedantry and argument for arguments sake ended.
 
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Parksy said:
We could continue to argue about the merits or otherwise of the 85% advice which forms a small part of the guidance and information available to novice towcar drivers because there is no definitive answer.
The very fact that there is no definitive answer is an indication of how questionable the advice is.
Parksy said:
The 85% advice for novice towcar drivers is a small part of the overall advice which is responsibly offered.
It would be responsible if the conditions under which it applies were stated. Without such qualification the advice is meaningless and hence grossly irresponsible.
Furthermore, there is not even unanimity in how weight ratios are calculated. Most sources compare the kerbweight of the towing vehicle with the MTPLM of the caravan, i.e. a worst case scenario, but some apply the actual weight of the towcar in the calculation. Kerbweight, in itself, is open to debate as most manufacturers nowadays give details of weights according to the EU directive and that already deviates from conventional understanding of the term 'kerbweight'. Using actual weight is not much better, even though, at first sight, this sounds more realistic, as actual data is far too variable, even for a given outfit.
 
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Given that one or two on here don't think the 85% guideline is necessary, safe, or is open to wrong interpretation, I wonder what simple advice they would give to newcomers wanting to tow a caravan? Rather than argue the toss about 85%, is it possible to come up with some straightforward, easy to understand recommendations which everyone would agree with?
 

Parksy

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As I mentioned earlier, if the 85% advice is good enough for all major caravanning organisations and clubs, caravan publications and Dr Jos Darling, a recognised expert in the physics of towed vehicles it's good enough for this forum.
If I had to choose between accepting the advice of Dr Jos Darling or Lutz the former gets my vote every time.
I think that it's irresponsible to try to confuse new forum members and drive them away from this forum whenever they ask a question and to ruin the reputation of this forum in the process.
 
Jul 28, 2008
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Common sense dictates that the best advice to give to a new caravanner is to have as heavy tow car as possible matched to as light a caravan as possible. Now in the real World you're very unlikely to get a caravan weighing less than at least 50% of the car (unless the car is one of the bigger and heavier 4X4's).
Granted, with a well matched outfit and experience combined with all the modern stability gizmo's (stabiliser, ATC, on the caravan and DSC et, etc, on the car) there shouldn't be any problems if the weight ratio exceeded 85%. However, not all vehicles are so equipped and there must be a margin for error. For instance, an inexperienced caravanner might not be used to how a caravan behaves under certain circumstances and do something a more experienced driver might not; hit the brakes hard on a bend for instance, or if they perceive a "snake" (even if it's not, just the caravan wallowing about behind) and brake sharply. In those circumstances I know I'd rather have the dog in control of the tail and one way of achieving that is to have a heavier tow car than trailer.
The 85% is not law, but it is a good sensible rule.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I'm not saying that I don't agree, Val. Maybe 85% is a good recommendation, but it can only be any good if it can be substantiated. This has not, to the best of my knowledge, been done. A totally abitrary figure, as it appears to be, makes the advice hollow and 70% or 100% would make just as much sense. Besides, it cannot be that one single percentage figure is valid for all conditions.
Why not simply advise the newcomer to be aware that the heavier the caravan, the greater the risk of potential instability and leave it at that? Why put a figure on any weight ratio so long as no-one is in a position to provide meaningful evidence in support of a specific percentage?
Besides, it all depends on the newcomer's ability anyway. One may feel perfectly at ease with being able to an outfit at 100% under control, another may not feel confident with an outfit even below 85%. Therefore, what's the point of putting a number to the advice unless it has been proved that the risk of instability increases disproportionately once some set weight ratio percentage is exceeded?
 

Parksy

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Lutz said:
I'm not saying that I don't agree, Val. Maybe 85% is a good recommendation, but it can only be any good if it can be substantiated. This has not, to the best of my knowledge, been done. A totally abitrary figure, as it appears to be, makes the advice hollow and 70% or 100% would make just as much sense. Besides, it cannot be that one single percentage figure is valid for all conditions.
Substantiated or not Dr Jos Darling who is a recognised expert on the physics of towed vehicles believes the 85% figure to be an easy to understand rule of thumb for beginners.
Lutz said:
Why not simply advise the newcomer to be aware that the heavier the caravan, the greater the risk of potential instability and leave it at that? Why put a figure on any weight ratio so long as no-one is in a position to provide meaningful evidence in support of a specific percentage?
Because the 85% figure is generally accepted by experts as a safe starting point for beginners and many of those who reply to forum queries prefer to quote it.
Lutz said:
Besides, it all depends on the newcomer's ability anyway. One may feel perfectly at ease with being able to an outfit at 100% under control, another may not feel confident with an outfit even below 85%. Therefore, what's the point of putting a number to the advice unless it has been proved that the risk of instability increases disproportionately once some set weight ratio percentage is exceeded?
No experienced towing vehicle driver would disagree that safe towing depends on a number of factors and this is reflected in the wealth of information available on this website and in authoritative publications on the subject of towing.
All major clubs, organisations, publications and of course the good and learned Dr Darling of Bath University appear to agree that the 85% figure is a good rule of thumb for beginners.
The point of putting the number to the advice is that 85% represents a consensus of expert opinion.
 
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Parksy I did recently post in a topic about the future of this hobby and made a sarcastic remark re the "85% rule". Unfortunatley it was not sarcastic enough (I do try to be polite) and prof picked upon it. I do not know if this was what prompted Rodger to write his letter but do agree with you that it must be confusing for people new to towing trying to make head and tales of things.
However I would never knowingly post a reply that I would ever think may get someone into bother with the law. From this point I think the 85% rule is flawed due to the fact that other easons may mean the driver / car is not legally allowed to do it. Furthermore we now have such a wide disparity between the towing abilities of some cars that have stability control aids and those that do not. The same now also applies to caravans and as I posted on an earlier thread if we are to survive 15 years from now attitudes will have to change on this 85% figure. That is not to say I do not think it is a good thing for beginers just that it may have been good for a Wolsley of the past but now not so relevant for the latest Passat. The other factor that we have no real knowledge of is the driving abilities of the poster.

As to your point about driving people away this would probably be the last thing any of us would wish to do but this is a forum and it is upto individuals to pick through posts and their arguements for themselves in order to reach an informed descion. I think when we used to have the old forum on here there was a bit that you could click on that was basically a way for you to comunicate a response to a point raised without it being shown as part of the general thread. This if it was here would to my mind take away some of the heavier reading that some times ensues.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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1. The advice given on here by any of us to "Newbies " should be plain , simple and easily understood without ambiguity.

2. That in itself does not make a reference to "85%" correct. Indeed I suspect we may unwittingly be lulling the "Newbie" into a false sense of security by even getting bogged down with "85%" in isolation.
3. This forum, its members and indeed PCv over the years have tried very hard to explain that a number of factors are crucial to a safe tow other than solelt weight ratios.
4. Maybe it is about time someone?????? prepared a paper for members discussion outlining ALL the factors that contribute to a safe or dangerous "tow".
I know what it is "safe " for me as do many others but simple "rules , guidelines" without full understanding on the part of the "newbie" is inheritantly dangerous. In fact focusing on just the "85%" alone is wholly iresponsible and very misleading.
Now gets struck off.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Parksy said:
As I mentioned earlier, if the 85% advice is good enough for all major caravanning organisations and clubs, caravan publications and Dr Jos Darling, a recognised expert in the physics of towed vehicles it's good enough for this forum.
If I had to choose between accepting the advice of Dr Jos Darling or Lutz the former gets my vote every time.
I think that it's irresponsible to try to confuse new forum members and drive them away from this forum whenever they ask a question and to ruin the reputation of this forum in the process.
Dr Jos Darling's statement should not be taken out of context as an unqualified endorsement of the 85% recommendation. He himself has recognised the urgent need for something better to replace it. All he has said is that until that is done, the 85% figure can serve provisionally as advice to the novice. After all, and I would agree with him on this point, such a recommendation can do no harm, but then it doesn't do very much good, either.
The most important question that hasn't been answered is at what level does the risk of instabilty increase disproportionately with the weight ratio? That would properly indicate to us where the limit lies. Once that has been answered we would all be on solid ground.
I don't think anyone who is confused need be driven away from this forum if we reply to his question that it cannot be answered adequately at this point in time without further investigation. It would indeed be irresponsible to give him an answer for the sole purpose of reassuring the enquirer, but which cannot be substantiated in any way.
By all means continue to recommend 85% as a starting point, but please point out that it is an arbitrary figure that needs reviewing.
 
Oct 30, 2009
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hi all,
were do I start without turning this post into war and peace not the "title" but the length of it
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by enlarge I agree with Lutz however I can well see Parksy's point and the sense behind it, the reasonableness of having a nice tidy easy figure that can be recommended to newbies as a starting point for them as they embark on a journey of discovery that could last a life time,
but here is the rub some of us HAVE proceeded along that journey of a life time with many experiences and pitfalls behind us, it is these very things that make us very wary of figures quoted as a catch all recomendation for those who are new to the hobby, the problem is that it is these very experiences that we have learned that the newbie seeks advice on.
at times it appears that "the shoot the messenger" and not listen to the message is what comes across in the forum pages.and it is this I believe that makes some members decline to post. and Parksy is absolutely correct they do not understand the banter element of forums and the knockabout nature that some topics encourage.
this is never more so than when technicalities are discussed while there may be differences of opinion and interpretation of the rules the fact of the matter is these technicalities are very important because the mirad of legistlation that has beset the caravan world make it impossible to ignore them what may seem ideal or simple is fraught with danger.
this is why the 85% rule or recommendation is for some of us hard to swallow "simply" if that is the right word because it doesn't acctually mean anything just 85% but of what?? the ratio of car to caravan in simplistic terms great we will go with that because a proffesor says so (sorry john not you this time
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) and it's a nice round figure,
It is not argumental or a wind up to challange the premiss that the tow vehicle does not have one weight that one can calculate with, it will vary a great deal its kerb weight may or may not be the same as the published figure and then theres the towing weight wife, kids, dogs ,awnings, cases, food stuff, full tank of fuel that will diminish on the way the bikes and anything else that goes away in or on the car, it could be 10% heavier than its kerb weight before the van goes on the back, and that is just the car.
what about the weight of the van for the purpose of making a calculation do you use the MTPLM or it's acctual weight if it is a newbie going away the chances are there will be minimal loading as they have not accumilated all the stuff that makes vans heavier like cadac's awning clutter and movers, the van could well be nearer the MIRO than the MTPLM, again could be 10% less. this assumes of course that you have ignored the acctual tow load of the trailer which will be on avarage 7% less because of noseweight. using these inaccurate figures to base a recommedation on is not valid because the inital 85% could be nearer 60% at best and if the loading reversed nearer 95% without even thinking of the dynamics of towing and weather conditions.

myself I do feel sorry for those who are just comming into the hobby there is so much to absorb and learn, in days of old it was much simpler and straightforward and really was by the seat of your pants stuff, but we survived and learned some very hard lessons along the way,my fear is that the way things are going many newbies may give up before they have learned the basics, rising costs and the assumtion that to caravan succesfully they have to as one poster put it " have the heavy'est tow car and the lighest van" a sure recipe for financial disater in time to come.
there are very many different combos out there that will work just as well without the 85% recomendation and be just as safe and managable for the new at towing, that is why I would not stick hard and fast to any rule, but then what do I know I've only been doing it 40 years.
in conclusion the above are my views on the subject and where I stand on it wether anyone agrees with me or not, I will not make any further comment on the subject to avoid any conflict with anyone who wishes to differ in opinion either now or in the future when a newbie askes the question,

if the concensus of opinion is to recommend the figure of 85% on the forum as outlined in the OP by Parksy wether it has any true basis or not, and that is what is wanted in future forum posts without desenting voices then that is the way it can be from me.
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I do not believe in putting a figure on weight ratios as there are too many variables to consider 85% may seem reasonable with some reservations. but it is not for me sorry.
colin.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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A well balanced reply, Colin. Yes, wouldn't it be nice to be able to give the novice a nice simple answer that is meaningful and easily understood by all? However, I fear that a lot of effort needs to be put into the task before this is possible. What we've got at the moment is not wrong but it's incomplete and we need to make the novice aware of its shortcomings so long as it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
 
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hi, the way i see it, dont matter weather your driving a 1960s vauxhall cresta or a brand new bmw, the only contact with the road is through four small pieces of rubber. if your towing and the trailer tries to push those four pieces of rubber out of line, i would much rather the trailer weighed 85% or less. ray.
 
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I think Lutz and Colin make good points. There is a world of difference between writing a letter to a magazine and posting a message on an internet forum and I am sure that Roger is savvy enough to appreciate that difference. On forums you have discussions across a wide range of views on any one subject. If somebody says something that is totally incorrect they will soon be jumped by other posters so in some ways the extremes are self governed. It seems a bit nit picking to me to complain in a letter in a generalised way about posts that might happen over a series of threads when drawing on just one aspect of what has been said. Given the very nature of the (Rule) which is based on a general concensus of what might be best advice for new comers there is bound to be a range of views. Providing those that perhaps don't agree articulate an argument in favour of their views surely people are sensible enough to draw their own conclusions?
David
 

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