Returning to Caravanning

[Daventura]

Hi all.
We have decided to return to caravanning at 70 yrs old. We where caravanning for a number of years whilst our children were growing up and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Due to the current situation with covid we decided it would make sense, as we are both still fit and active, to take it up again.
We have ordered a Sprite Alpine 2 which weighs in at 1097 (MIRO) and 1218 (MTPLM)
Car is a Kuga PHEV, max. towing limit of 1200 kgs.
Cars max weight is 2320 kgs, so 2320 + 1218 = 3538 kgs. Max.
Unladen the car and caravan come in at 1844 (car) + 1097 (caravan) = 2941 kgs (559 kgs under the legal 3500 kgs combined weight).
A couple o questions if I may:
1. can I be assured that (remembering there is only 2 of us) that there is enough payload split between the car and the caravan to be safe and legal.
2. My licence confirms BE which I assume is confirmation of being able to legally have the combination on the road.
Thanks and I hope you are all well.
Dave.

 

[Buckman]

It is the gross train weight of the Kuga that is a concern and going by your figures, you may be exceeding the gross train weight albeit by 18kg. Insurance would be the biggest issue.
A way around is to downplate the caravan by 18kg. However I am sure others will be along to give their input.

 

[otherclive]

When you use the 3500kg it is the combined sum of the cars GVW and MTPLM. It is nit how much they actually weigh it is the plated weights. But with a BE licence you are okay on that count anyway.

Your caravan has a very low payload so you will probably have to carry quite a bit of kit in the car. But with two of you that shouldn’t be a problem even if a roof box is required. It’s not an uncommon sight these days as even with just couples the vans payloads are quite restrictive.

Your biggest issue is that your cars maximum tow load is close to your MTPLM and keeping within 18 kg guaranteed is neigh on impossible.
But you don’t need to down plate as if you keep your van at 1200kg or preferably below you are legal.

I would strongly recommend weighing absolutely everything you will use loading up and going to a public weighbridge to confirm that you are okay.

PS your Swift manual will tell you what’s included in MIRO. Like electric cable, step, one gas bottle, caravan handbooks etc. Don’t double count these in your calculations for payload.

 

[Jcloughie]

My understanding is, that with a B+E on your licence, you can tow with a MAM (maximum authorised mass ), of up to 8,250kg. So you are well within the limits.

Check here.

John

 

[Daventura]

When you use the 3500kg it is the combined sum of the cars GVW and MTPLM. It is nit how much they actually weigh it is the plated weights. But with a BE licence you are okay on that count anyway.

Your caravan has a very low payload so you will probably have to carry quite a bit of kit in the car. But with two of you that shouldn’t be a problem even if a roof box is required. It’s not an uncommon sight these days as even with just couples the vans payloads are quite restrictive.

Your biggest issue is that your cars maximum tow load is close to your MTPLM and keeping within 18 kg guaranteed is neigh on impossible.
But you don’t need to down plate as if you keep your van at 1200kg or preferably below you are legal.

I would strongly recommend weighing absolutely everything you will use loading up and going to a public weighbridge to confirm that you are okay.

PS your Swift manual will tell you what’s included in MIRO. Like electric cable, step, one gas bottle, caravan handbooks etc. Don’t double count these in your calculations for payload.

Hi. Thanks for that. It really does confirm the way I have approached this myself. I will ask the dealer prior to picking the 'van up if they can weigh it before I take it and the car to a weighbride myself. Also my licence states BE and wasn't sure that it was the same as B + E?

 

[otherclive]

Hi. Thanks for that. It really does confirm the way I have approached this myself. I will ask the dealer prior to picking the 'van up if they can weigh it before I take it and the car to a weighbride myself. Also my licence states BE and wasn't sure that it was the same as B + E?

I did what you are planning to do but mine had battery plus mover and gas bottle fitted so need to make sure you know the inventory of what is in/ on the van. Mover and battery aren’t in MIRO and deduct from payload.
My Sprite was very nose heavy as collected as measured using a nose weight gauge. So it’s a good idea to check noseweight at collection. I balanced mine by putting water in the thetford and flush tank rather than a long trip with gas bottle in car. It’s not a normal approach to have full loo tanks at the back but the van towed fine and was pretty light and well below MTPL.M and the ratio of car kerbweight to van weight in your case is very favourable. Nice to hear how you get on.

 

[Buckman]

It must be remembered that it does not matter how little you have in the caravan in the form of payload, it is the plated weights that count. VOSA, police or the insurance company will look at the plated weights of the units when making a decision.

 

[otherclive]

It must be remembered that it does not matter how little you have in the caravan in the form of payload, it is the plated weights that count. VOSA, police or the insurance company will look at the plated weights of the units when making a decision.

Sorry but when towing as long as you are within your licence conditions and the OP is BE it’s not the plated weight. If you were to be stopped DVSA would weigh the caravan to check it was below MTPLM. If it is at or below MTPLM the driver is legal. However for this outfit the OP is governed by the cars towing limit of 1200 kg which is below MTPLM, so will need to keep payload down by at least 18 kg minimum. He could tow an empty 1400 kg MTPLM caravan if he wanted to as long as the unladen weight was less than 1200 kg the cars specified maximum limit.

 

[Buckman]

Sorry but when towing as long as you are within your licence conditions and the OP is BE it’s not the plated weight. If you were to be stopped DVSA would weigh the caravan to check it was below MTPLM. If it is at or below MTPLM the driver is legal. However for this outfit the OP is governed by the cars towing limit of 1200 kg which is below MTPLM, so will need to keep payload down by at least 18 kg minimum. He could tow an empty 1400 kg MTPLM caravan if he wanted to as long as the unladen weight was less than 1200 kg the cars specified maximum limit.

Why would VOSA etc need to weigh the caravan if the plated weights do not match up? I am sure that it was on this forum I read about a member being prosecuted for towing an empty trailer because the maximum gross weight of the trailer exceeded the maximum train weight of the towing vehicle. Is it worth taking the chance plus you have the insurance aspect?

 

[otherclive]

Why would VOSA etc need to weigh the caravan if the plated weights do not match up? I am sure that it was on this forum I read about a member being prosecuted for towing an empty trailer because the maximum gross weight of the trailer exceeded the maximum train weight of the towing vehicle. Is it worth taking the chance plus you have the insurance aspect?

Why would DVSA need to weigh any vehicle? When I was pulled into a weigh bridge near Ringwood why would that be?

 

[Raywood]

The combination is not a problem as BE confirms you can tow a combination with the GVW of the car and MTPLM of the caravan over 3,500. The caravan is a bit high for the cars towing limit and some care will be needed to keep the weight when towing down to the 1200 kg the car is limited to. Caravans can often come in at over the MIRO figure so it was wise to get the dealer to have this weighed before you take it on the road and I hope it comes out right for you. If it is seriously over the MIRO figure I would think it better to look elsewhere.
There is not a lot of load allowance at 121 kg and if it has a mover fitted this will be down to about 80 kg so you will need to travel with a fair bit of kit in the car.
70 is not too old to caravan, a lot of us on here are older so good luck.

 

[Buckman]

Why would DVSA need to weigh any vehicle? When I was pulled into a weigh bridge near Ringwood why would that be?

It seems that you are agreeing with me?

 

[otherclive]

It seems that you are agreeing with me?

No I’m not. Your comment about plates matching up is very unclear. DVSA weigh vehicles to see if they are compliant with the law and could also check drivers licence entitlements along with police too.

 

[Buckman]

No I’m not. Your comment about plates matching up is very unclear. DVSA weigh vehicles to see if they are compliant with the law and could also check drivers licence entitlements along with police too.

Taking the sum of the plated maximum gross weight of the vehicle and the plated maximum gross weight of the caravan/trailer if added together exceed the maximum gross train weight, then the driver could be prosecuted. insurance may then only pay out third party in the event of a mishap and then claim back those costs from the driver.

 

[otherclive]

Taking the sum of the plated maximum gross weight of the vehicle and the plated maximum gross weight of the caravan/trailer if added together exceed the maximum gross train weight, then the driver could be prosecuted. insurance may then only pay out third party in the event of a mishap and then claim back those costs from the driver.

This may clarify the position. Third paragraph of Section 1 refers.

HMG towing regulations

 

[Buckman]

This may clarify the position. Third paragraph of Section 1 refers.

HMG towing regulations

Quite correct, however unfortunately it seems that is not legislation, but an interpretation of the law. I guess it is up to the individual law officer to decide. I will go along with your input.
Again as said how do you get around the insurance aspect if you need to claim?

 

[Daventura]

I did what you are planning to do but mine had battery plus mover and gas bottle fitted so need to make sure you know the inventory of what is in/ on the van. Mover and battery aren’t in MIRO and deduct from payload.
My Sprite was very nose heavy as collected as measured using a nose weight gauge. So it’s a good idea to check noseweight at collection. I balanced mine by putting water in the thetford and flush tank rather than a long trip with gas bottle in car. It’s not a normal approach to have full loo tanks at the back but the van towed fine and was pretty light and well below MTPL.M and the ratio of car kerbweight to van weight in your case is very favourable. Nice to hear how you get on.

Hi. Thanks for the input. I have emailed Swift to find out what is inluded in the MIRO. No battery included but I think a gas bottle, spare wheel (tyre fitted??), elec. lead and step are. Also want to find out the tolerance on MIRO quoted. Read some disturbing reports that this could be +/- 5% of 1097 which means an extra 55 kgs to start with!!

 

[Buckman]

Where is the “ interpretation “ in that HMG document? Law officers go by the law and it’s quite clear that in that document there are requirements governing the actual weight of a vehicle trailer combination as allowed by its weight plates. And there are the requirements governing what vehicle trailer combination can be driven on a particular licence category.

I get that as per my earlier post and concede to your valued input, but what about insurance?

 

[otherclive]

Hi. Thanks for the input. I have emailed Swift to find out what is inluded in the MIRO. No battery included but I think a gas bottle, spare wheel (tyre fitted??), elec. lead and step are. Also want to find out the tolerance on MIRO quoted. Read some disturbing reports that this could be +/- 5% of 1097 which means an extra 55 kgs to start with!!

They will also probably include the document pack too if they do the same as they did with mine. It’s generally also stated in the owners manual and on the website. Your right on the MIRO percentage. They don’t weigh each caravan as it comes off the line and that variation allows them a bit if manufacturing flexibility if parts change, and of course weather conditions scan affect humidity and hence possible weight.

I suspect few of us allow for the 5% potential variation, but as you say it could potentially knock a hole in payload. But in the unlikely event that you were called fir a spot check all things being equal you would probably be sent on your way with a request to sort it out. We won’t get on to tyre load index or axle rating eh? But when I see what some stow in the nose locker and pull out of the caravan i am aghast for payload and nose weight excess.

 

[otherclive]

I get that as per my earlier post and concede to your valued input, but what about insurance?

Insurance has nothing to do with this conversation. If the drivers licence is not contravened and neither are the outfit weight limits and towing limits exceeded there is no insurance issue either.

 

[otherclive]

Quite correct, however unfortunately it seems that is not legislation, but an interpretation of the law. I guess it is up to the individual law officer to decide. I will go along with your input.
Again as said how do you get around the insurance aspect if you need to claim?

Where is the “ interpretation “ in that HMG document? Law officers go by the law and it’s quite clear that in that document there are requirements governing the actual weight of a vehicle trailer combination as allowed by its weight plates. And there are the requirements governing what vehicle trailer combination can be driven on a particular licence category.

 

[JezzerB]

18kg over at the most , I really wouldn't worry.

 

[Daventura]

They will also probably include the document pack too if they do the same as they did with mine. It’s generally also stated in the owners manual and on the website. Your right on the MIRO percentage. They don’t weigh each caravan as it comes off the line and that variation allows them a bit if manufacturing flexibility if parts change, and of course weather conditions scan affect humidity and hence possible weight.

I suspect few of us allow for the 5% potential variation, but as you say it could potentially knock a hole in payload. But in the unlikely event that you were called fir a spot check all things being equal you would probably be sent on your way with a request to sort it out. We won’t get on to tyre load index or axle rating eh? But when I see what some stow in the nose locker and pull out of the caravan i am aghast for payload and nose weight excess.

Hi. I have since found out on their website that the MIRO actually includes the tolerance so it maybe that it could be 5% lower than stated, hopefully. Do you like your Sprite?

 

[Daventura]

Where is the “ interpretation “ in that HMG document? Law officers go by the law and it’s quite clear that in that document there are requirements governing the actual weight of a vehicle trailer combination as allowed by its weight plates. And there are the requirements governing what vehicle trailer combination can be driven on a particular licence category.

I'm satisfied after looking at thethe Gov.UK website that it states that you can tow up to the max weights but not exceed them.

 

[Daventura]

Why would VOSA etc need to weigh the caravan if the plated weights do not match up? I am sure that it was on this forum I read about a member being prosecuted for towing an empty trailer because the maximum gross weight of the trailer exceeded the maximum train weight of the towing vehicle. Is it worth taking the chance plus you have the insurance aspect?