Seeking views on traveller caravans negotiating narrow access

Parksy

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Nov 12, 2009
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I would really appreciate your expert advice on something. My local council is planning to put a travellers' site at the end of the cul-de-sac I live in. The road is about 100 yards long, then a sharp left turn onto what will be the travellers' site. There are parked cars (residents' permits) along one side of the street, then a 2.6m metre width of road to the far curb, then a pavement which is only 96cm wide. The Council insists that traveller caravans will be able to access the site. However, they have based this on their belief that traveller caravans are only 2.2m wide. Our research shows that they can in fact be up to 2.55m wide. In each case, I believe wing mirrors would need to protrude another 0.5m in width, giving a range of 2.7m to 3.1m. In your experience, do you think it's possible to tow any caravan between the widths of 2.2m and 3.1m along the street, through a gap 2.6m wide, without damaging the cars on one side and putting anyone at risk on the pavement or emerging from their gardens on to it, on the other side?

Thank you in advance for your opinions.

JennMor
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Hi Jenn, welcome to the forum, think another thing you may have to consider is the vehicles they tow there vans with, at least it will be a transit type van and because some of the vans are wider than normal they also tow them with 7.5 tonne type lorries, sorry dont know the width of them but can measure one for you at work tommorrow if you so wish.

We all know they have to camp somewhere but think your council needs to do some more research on this one, dont forget the length as well, van + lorry!!

Good luck.
 
Aug 23, 2009
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Keep thinking about this one, and yes house values but to be honest I really think that access is the least of your worries!! Sorry to be so negative but a friend who worked with the travelling community for two years is now a gardener and swimbo often gets notice of when it is not safe for her to visit the site that she has to visit in the line of duty. Yes live and let live but they do tend to live with by their own laws and while that is fine in the middle of the countryside somewhere on your doorstep following a couple af families falling out is not a nice prospect for anyone!!
 
Sep 4, 2011
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They call them travellers sites, but the trouble is they dont travel.Once the vans are on site it will be the lorries and tranny vans will be the problem.Get local residents to fight it as much as you can or your life will become a misery.Will you dare to leave home to holiday if you keep a caravan at home and they see it gone.I really feel for you.
 

Parksy

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Nov 12, 2009
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I would really appreciate your expert advice on something. My local council is planning to put a travellers' site at the end of the cul-de-sac I live in. The road is about 100 yards long, then a sharp left turn onto what will be the travellers' site. There are parked cars (residents' permits) along one side of the street, then a 2.6m metre width of road to the far curb, then a pavement which is only 96cm wide. The Council insists that traveller caravans will be able to access the site. However, they have based this on their belief that traveller caravans are only 2.2m wide. Our research shows that they can in fact be up to 2.55m wide. In each case, I believe wing mirrors would need to protrude another 0.5m in width, giving a range of 2.7m to 3.1m. In your experience, do you think it's possible to tow any caravan between the widths of 2.2m and 3.1m along the street, through a gap 2.6m wide, without damaging the cars on one side and putting anyone at risk on the pavement or emerging from their gardens on to it, on the other side?

Thank you in advance for your opinions.

JennMor
Hi Jenn
Without being able to visit the area it's impossible for anyone who uses this forum to judge whether or not travellers or anyone else could safely access this site.
Members of the travelling community typically favour touring caravans built by continental European manufacturers which are often 2.5 metres wide, have a look at sales websites for Dethleffs, Fendt, Hobby and check out the width and length specifications.
The subject of travellers sites can often be an emotive issue and the validity or otherwise of a local authority decision about where they accommodate the travelling community is outside the remit of this particular forum which is primarily intended for use by owners and prospective owners and users of leisure touring caravans.
 
May 15, 2007
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Just been on Google Earth street view, somebody should do their home work before planning this , it will be a nightmare, far to tight for all the traffic there will be. You should fight this stupidity.Good luck.
 
Sep 4, 2011
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Milton keynes council had started a site spent £600,000 so far,but after last local elections the leading party changed.They have now suspended it as they say they have better things to spend the remaining £1.8 million on when there were 40 families homeless but the site would of only made 10 pitches.So councils can change thier minds.
 
Jan 19, 2008
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It's a pity none of your local councillors live near you Jenn. If so they wouldn't have even contemplated the idea. Councils are under pressure by law to supply sites so no doubt it will end up being there no matter what or how much people spend in trying to stop it. The only positive comment I can make is pray that they are Romany gypsies and not Irish tinkers. My situation of a neighbour getting a cat which craps in everyones garden (all moaning about it) as well as killing the birds looks tame compared to your problem.
Good luck but I don't think it will bode well.
 
Jan 19, 2008
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For how much good it will do I've signed the petition.
No doubt you've got the people in Wearside Road, who will also back onto the proposed site, involved. I wouldn't think the owners of the industrial premises which they will also back on to are too pleased. Having also Googled it, it is tight and those bollards will need to be taken away to allow them to have a wide enough swing to turn left. Don't be surprised if the council bans parking down your road to accommodate them
smiley-frown.gif
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Hi Jenn
Sorry to see your world is being turned upside down.
I live in North Wiltshire. Some time ago the Gypos bought a lot of land by the A419, farming land. Overnight diggers came in and before you knew it they had pitches, running water and electricity! The Local Town Council asked for their removal as no planning permission had been given. Latterly Wiltshire Council granted retro planning permission. Basically leaving them in North Wiltshire and avoiding setting up sites elsewhere throughout the County. A bit of NIMBY.
However I have to say I have never really noticed them, they cause no problems and they do have to live somewhere. I think they are Romany so as LB says that's not as bad as Irish Tinkers. Ironically quite a few have moved on because they couldn't stand the noise of the traffic.
smiley-laughing.gif

Unfortunately every County Council has a Legal duty to provide "homes" for Travellers and as in my case they will always take the easy route. Unless you can find an alternative quickly I suspect the Council will grant permission if only for an easy life!!
 
Aug 4, 2004
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Dustydog said:
Hi Jenn
Sorry to see your world is being turned upside down.
I live in North Wiltshire. Some time ago the Gypos bought a lot of land by the A419, farming land. Overnight diggers came in and before you knew it they had pitches, running water and electricity! The Local Town Council asked for their removal as no planning permission had been given. Latterly Wiltshire Council granted retro planning permission. Basically leaving them in North Wiltshire and avoiding setting up sites elsewhere throughout the County. A bit of NIMBY.
However I have to say I have never really noticed them, they cause no problems and they do have to live somewhere. I think they are Romany so as LB says that's not as bad as Irish Tinkers. Ironically quite a few have moved on because they couldn't stand the noise of the traffic.
smiley-laughing.gif

Unfortunately every County Council has a Legal duty to provide "homes" for Travellers and as in my case they will always take the easy route. Unless you can find an alternative quickly I suspect the Council will grant permission if only for an easy life!!

Why is it that they can do all thsi without planning permission but others cannot? The othe question is why does it take a council months to do something similar from start to finish that they seem to do overnight, i.e. roadways, water, electric etc installed? When our council repair a pavement it seems to take about 6 weeks to renovate 6 metres of the pavement? In the meantime the road is closed off to one lane and controlled by traffic lights that only functionas and when they feel like it. Over the past 6 weeks we have only seen them working on the pavement once and that was the day that they erected all the barriers!
 
Jan 19, 2008
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Surfer said:
The othe question is why does it take a council months to do something similar from start to finish that they seem to do overnight, i.e. roadways, water, electric etc installed? When our council repair a pavement it seems to take about 6 weeks to renovate 6 metres of the pavement?

It's not the council that does it Surfer, they do it themselves albeit illegally.
The tinkers that took over the gypsy site next to the ambulance station I was based at did this. After getting legal permission for the bailiffs to serve eviction notices on the tinkers they gave them notice to quit but despite the authorities cutting off the electric and water to the site after the tinkers had turfed off the legal Romany gypsies the tinkers tapped into it and used free water and electric for the three years they were there. They even had free grazing for their horses on NHS land at the front of the ambulance station. The Ambulance Service NHS trust built fencing around the land to keep the horses off but all they did was break open the lock on the gate and they had a nice coral courtesy of all of us
smiley-laughing.gif
heh! heh! heh!
Nothing is sacred and what's theirs is theirs as is what's yours is theirs
smiley-wink.gif
 
Nov 17, 2011
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Thank you all for your words of support and for signing our petition.

The Council held their second 'drop in' session last night. We turned up in force to keep asking them questions they seem incapable of answering. It's very difficult to control one's temper when you hear them lying constantly. I interrupted a conversation between their Comms man and a local person: he was saying that a) there will be no problem moving mobile homes on to the site because they can ask residents to move their cars for the day, and b) touring caravans aren't a problem because travellers use the standard 2.2m width variety. I asked him why he was still saying this when we told them 4 years ago travellers often have caravans 2.55m in width (3.05m with wing mirrors); and he himself was at the public meeting last week where we yet again told his boss this fact.

On static homes: it's not as simple as he says. It isn't only people in the street who park there. He's saying that every time a new static home is moved to the site (and that could be several times a year), first the travellers are going to inform the Council with plenty of notice; then the Council is going to contact everyone with a car in the street (even though they don't know who they all are); then - and this really is wishful thinking - the residents are going to tamely move their cars!

The Council gave us written assurances that when the previous planning permission ran out in April this year, they did not want to use this site for travellers. The permission duly expired - showed as 'withdrawn' on their website. Then a few months ago, they re-entered it as 'granted'. In the intervening months we know of two people who bought properties near the site on the basis that there was no planning permission for it. We're investigating whether or not this is legal.

The Council also promised us they would tell us if they had plans for the site. They didn't. We only found out two days before the Mayor's meeting to give the plan the go ahead because a reporter called down our road to ask us what we thought of it. Yet they consulted the travelling community about it 8 months ago. Clear violation of government guidelines to consult both communities early.

And get this. A few months ago, the Council (suspiciously it now turns out) decided to re-surface our street. However, they didn't paint back in the parking lines after, i.e. the new surface and lack of lines made the gap look wider. They also didn't re-surface the bit at the end, where the gate to the site is, which they will have to re-build for a travellers' site entrance. We (not knowing at the time they were planning to re-open the permission for travellers at the site) pushed them to re-paint the lines. Eventually they did, but they've painted them 3cm closer to the curb! We asked the guys doing the work why, and they said because they'd been told to, so 4x4s couldn't park there.

Now, the gap measures 2.9m between bays and far curb, not 2.6m as the Council measured it before. However, this doesn't alter the fact that the actual space available, between cars and curb is only around 2.5m and, as said, traveller caravans can be 2.55/3.05m.

Apologies for a long post, but I thought you might be interested to hear a little more about our cause.

http://www.savechurchgrove.com
 
Mar 2, 2010
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Lots of the news reports show footage of the typical traveller vans,Hobbys,LMC,Tabbert etc and they are often huge vans not normal touring vans.Good luck with your fight have signed petition.
 
Jan 31, 2011
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Whilst I can sympathize with your problem regarding the travelers, is the road wide enough to allow free passage of emergency vehicles.
A few years ago as the driver of a fire appliance, I could not get to the scene of a fatal house fire because of inconsiderate car parking.
Although the fatality had occurred before the arrival of the fire service, the police prosecuted the owners of the vehicles involved for causing an obstruction & had it been proved that that the delay was instrumental in the fatality then the owners could have been done for manslaughter.
 

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