servicing (P.I.R reports)

[dougie_374468830]

With reference to the other post on servicing, I work to the NCC guidlines, and, due to having done the training must by law offer the customer the option of having a periodic inspection report based on the requirements of BS7671:2008 (17th edition wiring regs).

The Electricity,Safety,Quality and Continuity Regs (ESQR) 2002, reg 25 states that an electrical installation cannot be connected to the UK supply unless the supply provider ( the distributor) is satisfied the installation complies with the relevant provision of the British standard by your production of a valid P.I.R

Basically if your `van is more than 3yrs old and has no current P.I.R you are not allowed to use a sites hook-up. How many sites ask for it? none i know of

Your `van catches fire due to electrical fault, no P.I.R = no payout.

Every `van sold commercially must have a valid P.I.R. How many dealers do. only 2 i know of. Get checking folks.

I have watched and not posted for a good while now and have seen no reference made to the above but apologies if it has been covered. If not though, how many people using and servicing caravans are aware of the regs?

Another bizarre rule i have come across is that as an ACOP`s only qualified engineer i can fix your gas at your house but not on a camp site. I must be GAS-SAFE reg`d to do that. `Van must be towed off site ( site entrance will do) for repair. I previously fixed gas on sites without a thought. but i dont fancy a chat with the guy wearing the powdered hairpiece or a huge liability bill.

Your thoughts on the above please.

Gem Caravan Care

servicing central scotland

 

[dougie_374468830]

surely somebody must have an opinion. or are you ducking the issue and hoping it will go away

dougie

 

[GStockton]

Hello, Dougie Which PIR report forms are you using? NICEIC ? they do list them or some other? or are you using a standard pir copied from the pages of BS 7671, 2008.

 

[xtrailman]

Dougie

I don't think anybody is ducking the issue, it's just that i for one, am totally p#ssed with the red tape.

At 15 years old i served a 5 year apprenticeship, at age 22 moved from an electrician to approved electrician, JIB approved scheme. I spent 8 years at tech one day/night a week.

I spent 12 years on house wiring, along with the heavy steel industry, and light commercial. From there i spent 25 years in maintenance.

So having just had my sunroom built, you can imagine my reaction when the builder tells me that i need an electrical certificate, why because i did the wiring and haven't got the latest 17th edition wiring regs.

So suddenly its ok for me to carry out work on a multi million steel plant, but not to wire my own house.

No doubt the same applies to my caravan.

While i appreciate that electricians should have the latest regs, my late employer told me i could not go on the course as i did not require it. But to carry out house wiring i do.

Somebody is just having a laugh.

 

[Damian]

PIR reporting was only brought to notice this year by the NCC, and at the present time it is NOT mandatory, but advisable.

Site owners can ask for evidence of safety but the vast majority would be quite satisfied if the Annual Service documentation is shown, as this includes a safety check on the wiring and RCD, however, I suspect that most sites ar enot interested as they would see takings nosedive.

As for the gas side, please provide a link to the rule you quote abot not being able to work on caravan gas appliances on a camp site.

At the present time ACoPS is all that is required by service centres to work on gas appliances, and as there is no legislation stopping an owner from working on his own gas system, as long as he is competent,I fail to follow your argument.

Maybe Scotland has different rules, I dont know, but in England as far as I know no restriction as stated exists.

 

[Guest]

sounds like another instance of the 'Elf and bleeding Safety' brigade shoving their oar into what have been perfectly safe systems for years. As my house insureres have never asked me if my home wiring is certified after 18 years of living in it, I cannot for the life of me see why a caravan should be any different at 3 years of age. This is another excuse to create non jobs for useless people. Wandering around with a clipboard and ticking boxes and making a nuisance of themselves. What are they actually going to do? Switch on the lights and go 'OK, they work'. Please sign here and give me

 

[Damian]

Thanks for the clarification SL regarding the rules being the same , to your knowledge.

As it happens, no caravan built by ANY manufacturer complies with 17th Edition wiring regulations, so in theory they should all be condemned, or at least given a "Not To Current Regulations" certificate.

They all fail on cable spacing between high (240v) and low (12v) services as well as other issues, but until the industry change their way of working, it is another minefield and one which has been ill thought out and pathetically implemented in bits and pieces.

 

[GStockton]

Damian for info Bs 7671 15th 16th and 17th all have sections for touring caravans and all manufactures failed to comply with the 12v dc and 230v ac spacing regulation.But all vans when new were tested and issued with a Installation certificate,which states that periodic testing is recommended after 3 years. So this thing is not new.

since 1990 I have had 5 new caravans and after 3 years I have carried out a periodic report on all of them, using the NICEIC forms.

 

[Guest]

Until something more relevant comes out, I shall not lose any sleep over this. My own van, although purchased in the UK does not have a NCC Certificate but does have the EU CEE Approval so I assume that it would fail these guidelines, as would all non UK made vans.

The van does go in for service next week so i will ask the dealers regarding this one. I wonder if I will receive blank looks?

 

[Damian]

In reply to G Stockton, yes I know the paragraphs off by heart, as I need to refer to them at frequent intervals.

The main point is, as you have also confirmed, no van has been built as of yet which comply with the regulations, but Installation Certificates have been issued.........WHY????? if they do not comply?????

It makes a mockery of the whole thing

,,,,,,scenario,,,,,,manufacturer fits non complying wiring and sells to unknowing buyer who then is faced with someone telling him his van is not to current standards, even though it may be just a year old...........

At the moment it is only NCC approved workshops which have been informed of the situation, it has not been communicated to the caravanning public in any sensible way to inform them of the changes, and the additional costing of having a PIR done.

 

[GStockton]

In reply to G Stockton, yes I know the paragraphs off by heart, as I need to refer to them at frequent intervals.

The main point is, as you have also confirmed, no van has been built as of yet which comply with the regulations, but Installation Certificates have been issued.........WHY????? if they do not comply?????

It makes a mockery of the whole thing

,,,,,,scenario,,,,,,manufacturer fits non complying wiring and sells to unknowing buyer who then is faced with someone telling him his van is not to current standards, even though it may be just a year old...........

At the moment it is only NCC approved workshops which have been informed of the situation, it has not been communicated to the caravanning public in any sensible way to inform them of the changes, and the additional costing of having a PIR done.

Damian yes you are right. But as an electrician completing a periodic report on a caravan then a code 4 Does not comply with current regulations would be given ( this statement does not mean that the installation is unsafe)

testing and inspection is my full time job and I do find about 20% of rcd,s /rcbo,s do fail the proper test some do not even trip at all ! mainly due to having never had the test button pressed.

Even if a full periodic report is not required then at least a ZS test and an RCD test (by calibrated tester) should be done on every service,with results recorded in the service book,this would only add 10 mins to the service time.

 

[dougie_374468830]

The pir form i work to is caravan/motor caravan specific. I agree about the 12v230v spacing and that must be marked down on the report.Which seems similar to the "part P" building regs.My understanding is the report isnt a legal document, neither is the 17th edition but they are both covered by the Electricity at work Act and the Health and safety at work act which most certainly are legal.

FYI the report consists of a visible wiring condition check, a continuity check., 500v insulation check and a 3 part rcd check.All in about 3-4 hrs work.

As i have spent the thick end of a grand on course and instruments (its now required for the Approved Workshop Scheme) I am a bit peeved to find nobody is giving a stuff about what is a potentially damaging legal issue.

ACOPs. Now i hold my hands up, I havent seen this in writing, but i have been assured by CITO & BOC that it is the case but i will endeavor to get CITO to tell me where to find it.

I agree about service centres and "competent" people fixing gas on their own premises.Again my understanding is that if I as a

service engineer go to a public site and carry out a paid job then gas-safe is required.

BOC will not supply the mobile leisure industry due to the thing people get up to with gas and equipment.A while back i had a customer try to decant propane from a 47kg bottle to 7kg bottle, he spent a bit getting a pipe brazed up and even had the big bottle upside down. 1st risked his and others lives 2nd risk job cos he`d nicked bottle.

dougie

 

[Damian]

Quote "my understanding is that if I as a

service engineer go to a public site and carry out a paid job then gas-safe is required."

This is where the waters get muddied.

What is a "Public Site"?

I do not think there is one public site in the whole of the UK, they are all privately owned, either by individuals or corporate(ie Haven), who elect to have members of the public use their site.

I fail to see what BOC have to do with any argument, they do not supply, it is mostly done by Calor and others, and what people do with most things makes scary reading at times, like using the 47kg cylinders outside th egas locker then wondering why their regulator suddenly fails, sending cylinder pressure gas into the system.........

 

[dougie_374468830]

I will speak to Cito and get a written ruling on this matter as i had never heard of this, If they cant supply that then it will be business as usual and happy days for the wallet.

My other job involves industrial gases and boc propane. I asked the boc guy and he made inquiries and came back with same as CITO.

It was also mentioned that CORGI was a charity that made up its own rules and got to big for its boots so lost the contract.

 

[Surfer]

With no offence to the OP this sounds very much like a nothe scare mongering tactic to get us toi part with our money. Although I may not have any papers, being a electronics technician, I am more than competent at repairing problems and could quite easily wire up a house like many others in a similar situation, but we are not allowed to do this.

Prior to all this nonsense I wired up at house etc and then paid a friendly sparkie to authorise it for certification. There was nothing wrong with the way it was wired and was probably a credit to any sparkie.

 

[Parksy]

I've no wish to upset anybody or call their integrity into question but Dougie wrote:

'As i have spent the thick end of a grand on course and instruments (its now required for the Approved Workshop Scheme) I am a bit peeved to find nobody is giving a stuff about what is a potentially damaging legal issue.'

My caravan is almost two years old and it was presumably fit for purpose when it was manufactured. The caravan wiring was signed off by an electrical installer at Swift and no problems have arisen in day to day use or been revealed after a service which is good enough for me.

I rewired our home and my work was certified by an independent electrician so I'd be aware of any problems.

No offence Dougie but I'm satisfied with the present arrangements, caravan ownership is expensive enough without being expected to stump up even more cash to dealers or workshops.

 

[DeliDave]

CORGI wasnt a charity it was a company employed by the Health and Safety Executive to run the Gas Registration scheme.They have now changed companies to run it but created and registerd the Gassafe name as a trademark so if they change providers in the future they wont have any fresh name to market.CORGI are still in business supplying stationary and equipment also trying to recruit members as a trade association,it is compulsory to belong to Gassafe to carry out gaswork (except for touring caravans which are not for hire as far as I understand as a gas fitter)

 

[dougie_374468830]

No offence taken. I am merely a poor service engineer who booked onto an electrical course to work towards approved workshop status thinking it was going to be familiarisation course as it was not suitable for beginners. How wrong was I.

It is not scaremongering it is law. Although very badly handled by NCC i daresay to avoid a mass panic and 1000s vans up for sale.

PIR`s dont need issued till a van is three years old and then not less than once every three years though the recommendation is annually.

I deal with risk assessments, method statements and permit to work,which in order to complete i need proof of a persons competence to carry out a task. If there is no recordable evidence of training then it doesnt matter if he has been doing job for years he wont be going on-site. Therefore if you need a competent person to check your work you cannot be competent for that task.

dougie

 

[DeliDave]

I have to go on a 'Defined Scope' electrics course to put spur for boiler in so I can certificate it for Part P it is a pure moneyspinning exercise in my opinion,paying someone to tell me how to do something I have done OK for 25 years and then no doubt a refresher in 5 years time No wonder the country is going down the crapper,you'll have to have a certificate to knock a nail in soon

 

[dougie_374468830]

Hi troops

I spoke with an Gas Safe training company and they state that there is no restriction on where an ACOP`s qualified engineer can work. So i was misinformed by CITO, apologies for that.

I also found out that, I, as an engineer in a works can quite legally work on gas systems using internal training but a contractor must be Gas-Safe reg`d, same goes for sparkies, they must prove competence.

As far as the PIR`s go, there is currently a big push to get dealers and site owners trained. CITO have around 35 10 delegate courses being run up to 01/10, most are full.Do you think dealers are going to pay &350pp and not use the training?

How long before euro style mot`s are introduced here?

 

[Jim_374473646]

Quote - G Stockton

"testing and inspection is my full time job and I do find about 20% of rcd,s /rcbo,s do fail the proper test some do not even trip at all ! mainly due to having never had the test button pressed."

Surely the sites RCDs which are legally required to be tested at a minimum of 12 month intervals as part of their PIR already protect the van.

I wonder how many caravaners have asked to to see the sites PIR and certificates, after all the site has a legal duty to provide them on request.

Jim

 

[GStockton]

Jim if the site points were wired pre the 16th edition of bs 7671 i.e pre 1991 then there was no requirement for rcd protected 16a sockets on the site supply pillars so therefore the test engineer who did a periodic report would just list it down as a code 4 (does not conform to current standards)

For info 16th edition states max of 4 16a outlets to a 30ma rcd and the new 17th edition states that each 16a outlet must have its individule rcd. The site cannot be forced to upgrade as the installation complied at the time.

 

[GeorgeNeil]

Jim if the site points were wired pre the 16th edition of bs 7671 i.e pre 1991 then there was no requirement for rcd protected 16a sockets on the site supply pillars so therefore the test engineer who did a periodic report would just list it down as a code 4 (does not conform to current standards)

For info 16th edition states max of 4 16a outlets to a 30ma rcd and the new 17th edition states that each 16a outlet must have its individule rcd. The site cannot be forced to upgrade as the installation complied at the time.

The NCC course that Dougie mentions is a joke, 2 days and a 34 page document to support it and all of a sudden you become a "competent person" to inspect caravan electrical installations. From what I've seen the person doing the training doesn't appear to have an electrical qualification either. This is the NCC / CITO employing a training consultant who has produced a course that they have endorsed and the less informed caravan engineers are now running round with the misinformation.

With regard to the the original post this has appeared on other forums and provoked similar comments

 

[GeorgeNeil]

The NCC course that Dougie mentions is a joke, 2 days and a 34 page document to support it and all of a sudden you become a "competent person" to inspect caravan electrical installations. From what I've seen the person doing the training doesn't appear to have an electrical qualification either. This is the NCC / CITO employing a training consultant who has produced a course that they have endorsed and the less informed caravan engineers are now running round with the misinformation.

With regard to the the original post this has appeared on other forums and provoked similar comments

 

[Jim_374473646]

The NCC course that Dougie mentions is a joke, 2 days and a 34 page document to support it and all of a sudden you become a "competent person" to inspect caravan electrical installations. From what I've seen the person doing the training doesn't appear to have an electrical qualification either. This is the NCC / CITO employing a training consultant who has produced a course that they have endorsed and the less informed caravan engineers are now running round with the misinformation.

With regard to the the original post this has appeared on other forums and provoked similar comments

There is effectively more protection from the 16th edition installation though as the 30mA trip was shared between the 3 outlets, with the 17th edition the 30mA is for each individual caravan.

Jim