Skoda Superb Kerb Weight = Mass in Service ?

[juanjo4747]

Hi all,

Just about to upgrade my car for our first caravan. From my research the Skoda Superb looks to be an ideal fit for the weight of van we are after but I just wanted to double check.

I was sent a photo of the V5 from the dealer and the 2 weights listed are: revenue weight and mass in service.

Am I right to think the mass in service is equal to the kerb weight on Skodas?

Thank you

 

[juanjo4747]

Apologies, I have just found similar threads that state the mass in service is generally lower than the kerb weight, is that safe to assume?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Apologies, I have just found similar threads that state the mass in service is generally lower than the kerb weight, is that safe to assume?

Generally MIS is slightly lower than kerbweight, but as you don't tell us why you need the kerbweight, I will assume it is to check your towing ratio which conventionally is:

(Caravan MTPLM/Tow Vehicles Kerbweight) x 100%

Novices should not exceed 85%, experienced should not exceed 100%

This is the industries method and it is just advice. It absolutely no legal basis, and Its far from perfect. A few % either way is very unlikely to cause a major difference in the tow ability of your outfit.

Good towing is not simply achieved by meeting 85-100% ratios, It is a combination of proper maintenance of vehicles, sensible loading of the trailer to minimise large moments of inertia, and to create an appropriate nose load, and driver habits. The single most dangerous factor is driving too fast for the conditions.

 

[juanjo4747]

Generally MIS is slightly lower than kerbweight, but as you don't tell us why you need the kerbweight, I will assume it is to check your towing ratio which conventionally is:

(Caravan MTPLM/Tow Vehicles Kerbweight) x 100%

Novices should not exceed 85%, experienced should not exceed 100%

This is the industries method and it is just advice. It absolutely no legal basis, and Its far from perfect. A few % either way is very unlikely to cause a major difference in the tow ability of your outfit.

Good towing is not simply achieved by meeting 85-100% ratios, It is a combination of proper maintenance of vehicles, sensible loading of the trailer to minimise large moments of inertia, and to create an appropriate nose load, and driver habits. The single most dangerous factor is driving too fast for the conditions.

Thanks for the reply. Exactly the reason I was asking.

 

[ProfJohnL]

If you cant find the cars kerbweight, then try it with teh MIS. If the figures are within the guidance then that's fine, but I remind you good towing is not just getting the weigh ratio figure, it all the
other things I mentioned.

 

[Lutz]

To return to the original question which refers also to revenue weight. That is something that we, as private vehicle owners do not need to concern ourselves with. Revenue weight only has relevance for commercial use.

Note that the mass in service is not the actual weight of your car, but the weight of the car that the manufacturer submitted for type approval. It is, or should be, the weight of the car in basic spec, with the minimum of factory fitted options. For that reason, as the Prof says, it is more than likely to be less than kerbweight. Consequently, using mass in service instead of kerbweight to calculate weight ratio will always give you a less favourable result. In other words, it gives you a safer margin.

 

[JezzerB]

Which model of Superb; they have a very high towing capacity esp if it's the 4x4 or 4 motion and should make a great tow car.

 

[otherclive]

Until recently I had a 2014 Superb 4x4 estate with the 170ps engine and DSG auto box. Really nice car with bags of load space plus good legroom at the rear too even with a 6ft 4 driver. One thing that made it so useful was that the rear seat bases flipped up and you could carry heavy stuff there. Or we tended to put the dogs there as they could get air on via the B pillar vents. That left the load bay for all of our kit. Good cars. But remember the 4x4 auto costs more to service with the need for Haldex fluid changes and auto oil changes at 20000/2years and 40000/4years.

 

[SamandRose]

Is it really the case that "mass in service is generally lower than kerb weight" and not the other way round?

A data sheet sent to me by the Camping and Caravanning Club states that "mass in service" is defined in an EC directive as "the mass of the vehicle with bodywork in running order (including coolant, oils, fuels, tools, spare wheel and driver". However it also states that "some manufacturers do not include the weight allowance for the driver (75kg) in their kerbweight figures".

If this is correct, should kerb weight not be up to 75kg less than mass in service?
If this isn't correct, what does kerb weight include that mass in service does not?

Notwithstanding the above I agree with the Prof that a few % difference is likely in reality to be far less significant than other factors including loading of the car and trailer, speed and road and weather conditions.

 

[otherclive]

Is it really the case that "mass in service is generally lower than kerb weight" and not the other way round?

A data sheet sent to me by the Camping and Caravanning Club states that "mass in service" is defined in an EC directive as "the mass of the vehicle with bodywork in running order (including coolant, oils, fuels, tools, spare wheel and driver". However it also states that "some manufacturers do not include the weight allowance for the driver (75kg) in their kerbweight figures".

If this is correct, should kerb weight not be up to 75kg less than mass in service?
If this isn't correct, what does kerb weight include that mass in service does not?

Notwithstanding the above I agree with the Prof that a few % difference is likely in reality to be far less significant than other factors including loading of the car and trailer, speed and road and weather conditions.

Have a look a some if Lutz’s recent posts he explained the why’s and wherefore of your question. Including what are and what are not legal definitions.

 

[SamandRose]

Have a look a some if Lutz’s recent posts he explained the why’s and wherefore of your question. Including what are and what are not legal definitions.

I had read Lutz's post in this thread but, with respect to you both I'm not really any the wiser.

Like the OP, I had always assumed that kerb weight and mass in service were either the same thing, or so close to each other that any difference was negligible.

I get even more confused when I look at the brochure for my VW, which doesn't give figures for either 'kerb weight' or 'mass in service'. But it does give a figure for "unladen weight". The definition of this (in very, very small print) references the same EC directive as 'mass in service', and therefore I can only assume that they're the same thing. But the same figure is also quoted as 'kerb weight' in the Tow Car Awards?

Are we saying that 'kerb weight' has no legal or indeed consistent definition? In which case surely a more sensible and consistent approach would be to abandon all reference to it and use mass in service to calculate towing weight ratios (whilst being aware of the limitations of these)!?

 

[otherclive]

I had read Lutz's post in this thread but, with respect to you both I'm not really any the wiser.

Like the OP, I had always assumed that kerb weight and mass in service were either the same thing, or so close to each other that any difference was negligible.

I get even more confused when I look at the brochure for my VW, which doesn't give figures for either 'kerb weight' or 'mass in service'. But it does give a figure for "unladen weight". The definition of this (in very, very small print) references the same EC directive as 'mass in service', and therefore I can only assume that they're the same thing. But the same figure is also quoted as 'kerb weight' in the Tow Car Awards?

Are we saying that 'kerb weight' has no legal or indeed consistent definition? In which case surely a more sensible and consistent approach would be to abandon all reference to it and use mass in service to calculate towing weight ratios (whilst being aware of the limitations of these)!?

Your final paragraph is spot on. The interesting thing is that other nations don’t seem to use such a “ guide” as 85% and yet seem to get on alright with their caravanning. Have we got it wrong given the confusion that it causes and perhaps a look into Germany, Netherlands and France may be beneficial.

 

[Lutz]

I had read Lutz's post in this thread but, with respect to you both I'm not really any the wiser.

Like the OP, I had always assumed that kerb weight and mass in service were either the same thing, or so close to each other that any difference was negligible.

I get even more confused when I look at the brochure for my VW, which doesn't give figures for either 'kerb weight' or 'mass in service'. But it does give a figure for "unladen weight". The definition of this (in very, very small print) references the same EC directive as 'mass in service', and therefore I can only assume that they're the same thing. But the same figure is also quoted as 'kerb weight' in the Tow Car Awards?

Are we saying that 'kerb weight' has no legal or indeed consistent definition? In which case surely a more sensible and consistent approach would be to abandon all reference to it and use mass in service to calculate towing weight ratios (whilst being aware of the limitations of these)!?

Mass in running order, kerbweight and unladen weight are all different and all are legally defined. If they were all the same, there wouldn't be any need for three terms. The V5c refers to mass in service, but I have been assured by the DfT that mass in running order is what is really meant.
The biggest difference between mass in running order (mass in service) and kerbweight is that kerbweight is specific to each and every vehicle. Mass in running order, on the other hand, applies only to the one vehicle that the manufacturer submitted for type approval and that is (or should be) a base vehicle with the minimum of factory fitted options. Therefore, one cannot expect a mass in running order figure to be anything more than a rough guide. A kerbweight figure, on the other hand, only makes sense when linked to the specific vehicle chassis number and includes all factory fitted options and all permanent equipment, even that which was fitted by the dealer. The closest published figure to kerbweight is what is termed as "actual mass of the vehicle" but that is only quoted in the Certificate of Conformity that is issued with each vehicle, but is rarely handed over to the vehicle owner in the UK.
Confusion exists because manufacturers often talk about kerbweight or unladen weight, but what they are actually quoting is mass in running order.

 

[ProfJohnL]

In the context of caravanning kerbweight is only used as part of the UK industries towing ratio calculation. The calculation is flawed in many respects and it's results are nowhere near as black and white or good and bad as many people would have you believe. Despite its imprecision it does allude to the good practice of keeping a trailers mass as small as possible.

Nothing magically or mechanically changes if you exceed the advice by a few percent. so in reality if the calculation were done using the MIRO (MIS) or unladen weight , the results may be out a little compared to using kerb weight but its unlikely to be significantly detrimental to the towing characteristics if all other factors are equal.