SOS - legal towing weights

[Michael_374390745]

Hello,

I am totally new to the world of caravanning and really need some help surrounding towing laws before I purchase my first caravan.

I passed my driving test in 1998, and I am therefore subject to the new rules surrounding towing weights (max of 3500 KG.)

The rules are so complicated and I need some advice from someone with some understanding of the position.

My car is an Audi A6 Saloon.

Details from the user manual:

Gross vehicle weight -2120 KG

Kerb weight (unladen) - 1615 KG

Max front axle weight - 1160 KG

Max rear axle weight - 1110 KG

Max trailer weights

Trailer with brakes on gradients upto 8% - 1800

Trailer with brakes on gradients upto 12% - 1600

Trailer without brakes - 750

I am looking for a 4 berth caravan which I can legally tow. Can someone please offer me some advice as to the weight I can go to.

Also, with regard to the law, is the weight deemed as purely car and van without or without passengers and equipment included.

So confusing!

Many thanks in advance

 

[JohnGriffiths]

There may be people on this forum who can do the details but in simple terms there are 3 things to watch in your case.

1. If you load the car to its max of 2120 then you MUST NOT pull a caravan over 1480 Kg to avoid going over the 3500 kg Train Weight.

2. You must also never pull more than 1800 Kg however you load the car.

3. BUT it is sensible to keep the total caravan weight down to less than 85% of the kerb weight, 0.85 * 1615 , i.e. 1372 kg. This is not a legal requirement but is possibly the most important if you are new to towing. You won't get anywhere near limits 1 and 2 if you adhere to this one.

 

[weejock]

I have a suspicion that since you have the new license entitlement you cannot tow more than 1615kg as this is the kerb weight of your car and I do not think you are entitled to go above 100%.

 

[Alan Partridge]

If you passed after 01.01.97 you can tow a braked trailer of more than 750kg provided that the combined maximum authorised mass (MAM/GVW) of the car and trailer is no more than 3500kg, and provided that the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the vehicle.

That means that you can tow a caravan of up to 1380kg MAM (not 1480kg) which added to the MAM of your car makes 3500kg. This is also comfortably below the car's unladen weight (taken as the kerbweight).

As you have had conflicting advaice here you might want to check the Camping and Caravanning Club website explanation of this which is fairly clear.

Link here - http://snipurl.com/93aes

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Michael,

You are right to be concerned.

As you have the basic licence (post Jan 1997), you must not tow a outfit with a combined MAM of no more than 3500Kg (Car and Trailer, and passengers with luggage).

The frequently used mnemonic is 'MAM' which stands for 'Maximum Authorised Mass'. Both the car and the trailer will have MAM's specified by their manufacturers, and sadly this does limit what you might be able to tow.

Your car has a MAM of 2120Kg (Gross Vehicle weight), which means that your trailer (caravan) can have an MAM of no more than 3500 - 2120 = 1380Kg MAM (also known as MTPLM).

This is still compliant with the trailer not exceeding 100% of the Kerbweight of the car.

The choice of caravan is a very personal matter so I will make no make or model recommendations, but as you are looking for a four berth, then you will need to look for a light weight one, Please bear in mind that the loading margin of the caravan you choose has to accommodate all the items you put into the caravan, including, gas bottles , battery, water carriers and cooking utensils, and all your personal effects. It all adds up.

I would strongly suggest that you consider taking the extension test. This frees up your full potential and will allow you to make most use of the car, and a caravan with a better loading margin.

You will come across people who recommend a caravan to car weight ratio of no more than 85%. This figure has no basis in law ad is only a recommendation, It is certainly sensible to try and achieve it, but do not be overly concerned if you are wide of the mark.

 

[Steve L]

Hi Michael. John has explained this very accurately. You can only go upto 1380Kgs if your car is fully loaded to it's max Gross vehicle weight of 2120Kgs.

However if the car is not that heavey with you and the family in it and a full tank of fuel, then you could go to a heavier caravan so long as you do not exceed 3500 Kgs max train weight.

The best option of all would be to take your trailer test and then you would not be restricted or worrying about what you are towing.

Im in the fortunate position to of passed my test way back in 1977, but I do tow a caravan that is 36Kgs heavier than what my car can legally tow. However it is such a small margin of error that it is within the 5% allowed by VOSA and anywat, I don't load it to the max either.

Hopefully things are a little clearer now.

All the best, Steve L.

 

[Alan Partridge]

This is not getting clearer at all.

Steve in Leo is wrong.

Loading your car to less than 2120kg does not enable you to tow a caravan heavier than 1380kg. The MAM is the MAM - it does not change according to load, so the total MAM is 3500kg if the MAM of the caravan is 1380kg, regardless of the load in the car, and you cannot have a caravan with a higher MAM unless you take a further test.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Steve,

I thank you for the vote of support concerning my explanation, but I am seriously concerned at the last part of your posting.

I cannot condone or understand why you should wish to broadcast that you are flouting very clear regulations. Exceeding the cars permitted towing limit, is not only foolhardy but also illegal. You may find that your insurance is invalidated.

Placing such a statement as part of a answer in this context is tantamount to suggesting that your own practice is a suitable course of action. It is not.

 

[Lutz]

Maybe Steve's caravan weighs, in total, 36kg more than what the car may tow, but that does not make it illegal. The towload is not the total weight of the caravan, but only its axle load. Besides, having passed his test before 1997, he is not restricted by the 3500kg gross train weight limit. So, even if the maximum permissible axle load of the caravan were 36kg above the towload limit, he would not be illegal if he doesn't make full use of the caravan's MTPLM.

 

[Steve L]

Thankyou Lutz for coming to my aid.

That was exactly what I was saying.

The point about loading the car lighter and putting more towed weight behind but without exceeding the 3500Kg total gross train weight for post 1997 license holders was what I was trying to make.

The fact that I knowingly tow a caravan that has a max weight heavier than my tow car's capacity, but load the caravan below it's full capacity to comply with the car's tow limit and the law, only demonstrates that I know exactly what I'm towing and have acted accordingly.

There is no attempt to encourage anyone to flout the law. Simply a demonstration of how one can work the math to enable a slightly heavier caravan to be towed.

For example, I could tow a caravan with a miro of 1400Kgs behind my car so long as I didn't put anything in it.

I have had to get very intimate with towing law over the years while running our business which necessitated us using a 3500Kg gross weight truck and towing a 2000kg trailer.

By law I with my 1977 license could drive the vehicle combo so long as it had a tachograph fitted. The particular trailer it towed weighed less than 1000kgs unladen, so we did not require an operators license. However 80% of vosa and the police didn't know that bit of legislation and in the first 3 months of driving we were prosecuted 4 times and each time it was thrown out of court. Susequently I asked for a letter clarifying this seemingly little known legislation. We kept a copy in the truck but then when stopped, we were met with sarkyness as the constabulary didn't like the fact we knew the legal position and had a judges backing by way of the letter.

Steve L.

 

[Alan Partridge]

Steve, I have no disagreement with personal approach to keeping within the weights, as someone who has a pre-1997 licence.

Where I disagree is that this same approach can be taken by a cat B licence holder to tow an outfit with a total combined MAM exceeding 3500Kg. The direct.gov link here clearly states that the limit is on the MAM, not the actual combined weight of the outfit.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

 

[Lutz]

Correct. If you have a pre-1997 licence, in all typical cases of cars towing caravans, the actual weights will be the determining factor what you may or may not tow, because the limitation is normally purely a technical one. In the case of a post-1997 licence, you are not only limited by the same relavent technical specification but also by the legal weight limits based on MAM, not actual weights.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Steve,

With respect, you did not make it clear how or why your caravan weighs more than the tow load allowance of your car in your post of 25 Dec 2008 08:17 AM. You claimed that the difference was swallowed up in the tolerance or measurement that VOSA use. There was no mention of difference between axle loads and gross vehicle weight and nose loading.

For the purpose of this thread where Michael was asking for clarification, the omission of such detail could lead an inexperienced reader to form a conclusion that it is OK to exceed a particular limit. Un-clarified, the posting could lead to an illegal combination.

Whilst the niceties of the situation could give Michael some limited extra payload in his caravan, the process of achieving it safely is not so clear, and should not be undertaken casually. The margin for error is quite small, especially in this case where he is limited to a low trailer MAM.

 

[Steve L]

Ok John point taken.

What I was trying to point out is that while Michael's Audi is capable of towing 1600Kgs up a 12% gradient, he is limited to 1380Kgs trailer max gross weight, if his car is loaded to full capacity. Most caravans seem to jump in fairly round 100Kg figures for their max gross weight.

So by doing as I've done and get a caravan of 1436Kgs gross weight, but loaded it light to 1400Kgs gross weight as that is the maximum tow capacity of my car and quite legal to do so as VOSA check the Gross train weight of car plus occupants and caravan, then Gross weight of car plus occupants, then gross weight of caravan, then finally the hitch weight of the caravan. I've been there and had that done at a testing station.

Michael's criteria would be to choose his caravan let's say the same as mine for ease of explanation. He then can do two things.

1/ Load the caravan light with accessory's and luggage by 56Kgs of it's payload (approximately 220kgs).

2/ Ensure the car is loaded lighter by 56Kgs, which might be easier as there is a 505Kg pay load to play with.

His ultimate aim is that the whole outfit must not exceed 3500 Kgs. Also the nose weight must not be exceeded for the hitch.

The Audi is more than capable of towing and being stable.

My caravan is an Abbey freestyle 540SE 4 berth fixed bed which is a very usable van and with a 3mtr wide awning very spacious.

Steve L.

 

[Lutz]

Not quite, Steve. The gross vehicle weight of 2120kg includes the noseweight. The maximum axle load of the caravan in Michael's case is then 1380kg. Consequently, the maximum gross weight of the caravan will be 1380kg plus the noseweight. As far as I know, the noseweight limit of an Audi A6 is 85kg so the maximum total weight of the caravan that Michael may tow if the car is fully laden would be 1380 + 85 = 1465kg.

 

[Alan Partridge]

Lutz, you seem to be dancing on the head of a pin. At least the OP must now be thinking "well at least it's not just me".

The combined MAM (not the total weight) must not exceed 3500kg. How does a car with a MAM of 2120Kg plus a caravan of 1465Kg, total 3585Kg satisfy that criterion? I appreciate that the actual all up weight of the combination you propose is 3500Kg but that is not the same as the sum of the MAMs.

Are you saying that the total MAM for a given car and trailer is not a fixed figure but can be changed by adjusting the noseweight?

Unlike Steve, I have not experienced a VOSA check; but having a legal combination is not the same as having a licence to drive it - the legality check here would appear to be simple - add the MAM of the car (2120) to the MAM of the trailer (1465), answer 3585 = Cat B licence inadequate as the trailer weighs more than 750kg.

From the Directgov link cited above

"Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM."

I acknowledge that this is the guidance rather than the statute.

 

[Lutz]

No, what I am saying is that the noseweight is included in the cars's 2120kg MAM. In other words, if the car already weighs 2120kg in the solo condition, i.e. right on the MAM limit, must have 85kg removed before it can legally be hitched up to the caravan.

 

[Michael_374390745]

Hello everyone, many thanks for all your replies. this has certainly sparked some debtate! I am very suprised by the lack of realy clarity from the relevent authorities, it all very very technical!

So, for the purposes of clarity, would it be agreed that the situation is as follows:

The Gross Vehicle weight is 2,120 Kgs - this is the max the car can weigh when it is fully loaded.

My licence covers a combined weight up to 3,500 Kgs, so this leaves 1,380 Kgs max loaded weight of caravan.

I understand that it is recommended that as a novice not to go over 85% of kerbweight, so 1,372 Kgs

So in summary, I should be looking for a van with no more than 1372 Kg gross weight?

It appears that I more likely to be looking at a 2berth van given my limited capacity and also from a budget point of view.

I hope the above is correct, my brain is beginning to melt!

Many thanks once again.

 

[Lutz]

No, Michael, I'm afraid you have still got it wrong. If the maximum gross train weight is 3500kg and the gross vehicle weight is 2120kg (including the noseweight) then the maximum total weight of the caravan is 1380kg PLUS the noseweight. (The 1380kg is only the AXLE LOAD of the caravan, not its total weight).

 

[SBS]

"No, Michael, I'm afraid you have still got it wrong. If the maximum gross train weight is 3500kg and the gross vehicle weight is 2120kg (including the noseweight) then the maximum total weight of the caravan is 1380kg PLUS the noseweight. (The 1380kg is only the AXLE LOAD of the caravan, not its total weight)."

Lutz,

I don't believe that train weight comes into the calculation. The relevant figures are base on Maximum Authorised MASS so the sum is MAM of car and MAM (or MTPLM) of the caravan added together must not exceed 3,500kg.

Actual weight (as per weighbridge are relevant for pre '97 drivers.

Michael,

We had a '92 Elddis Cyclone double dinette 5 berth which had an MTPLM of 1100Kg. I would expect these to fetch around

 

[Lutz]

To put it another way, if the car (solo) weighs 2120kg and the caravan on its own weighs a total of 1380kg then you would be exceeding the MAM of the car by amount of the noseweight as soon as the caravan is hitched up to the car, as the total weight of the car would then be 2120 + 85 = 2205kg.

 

[Lutz]

"No, Michael, I'm afraid you have still got it wrong. If the maximum gross train weight is 3500kg and the gross vehicle weight is 2120kg (including the noseweight) then the maximum total weight of the caravan is 1380kg PLUS the noseweight. (The 1380kg is only the AXLE LOAD of the caravan, not its total weight)."

Lutz,

I don't believe that train weight comes into the calculation. The relevant figures are base on Maximum Authorised MASS so the sum is MAM of car and MAM (or MTPLM) of the caravan added together must not exceed 3,500kg.

Actual weight (as per weighbridge are relevant for pre '97 drivers.

Michael,

We had a '92 Elddis Cyclone double dinette 5 berth which had an MTPLM of 1100Kg. I would expect these to fetch around

 

[SBS]

Of course the total weight of car and caravan combined must not exceed 3500kg. If the MAM of the car is 2120kg then this includes the noseweight. The total weight of the car is higher when the caravan is hitched up to the car to when it is solo.

The actual weight is irrelevant - it's the plated MAMs that count.

Mike

 

[Lutz]

Of course the total weight of car and caravan combined must not exceed 3500kg. If the MAM of the car is 2120kg then this includes the noseweight. The total weight of the car is higher when the caravan is hitched up to the car to when it is solo.

For driving licence purposes the actual weights are irrelevant, but for technical legality the actual MAM's must not be exceeded either.

 

[JohnGriffiths]

Michael,

Well like you my brain is also melting, it's enough to put anyone off. I still think in practical terms you won't go far wrong with my original reply. When you get onto sites you will also find lots of folk who don't bother about getting it roughly right, never mind the detail. You'll be there worrying about whether your A6 can manage a 1370 Kg van, and some bloke will pull up next to you towing a twin axle 1500 Kg job with a Ford escort. Relax, and enjoy it.

John